Wilkins called up, Davies to CS [Latest: Boras displeased about Davies' demotion, post 20]

[brewcrewdue80]

Come on, it's 10days watching baseball. He's not going to pitch with his time off from what it appears. The Brewers can certainly make up for the 24k with his next year's Pre-Arb rate. Give him 575k vs 550 or 540k. Giving Wilkins a ML payday has to be nice for him, and you show something, or watch him be released, but not before he's gotten a nicer check on his 10-14 day stay. Santana has an AS break set to return. So, barring 2HRs or a .500 BA in his brief stay, I'd expect he's just released when Davies can be brought back up for his next start. Wilkins' numbers just don't add up to be worthy of a RF or 1b numbers. Catcher/2b/SS you could maybe stomach them, but any other position and He's not reaching expectations.

[jwill535]

Boras complaining here isnt about Davies, its more about the practice in general. But he can complain all he wants, its a common practice. This is essentially a road trip for him. I am sure that he isnt out anything other than the 24k, which is significant, but as others stated, could easily be made up for.

 

As an aside, per diem for MLB players, about $100 IIRC per day, doesnt go far. Most of that goes back to the club to pay for pre/post game meals, in dug out snacks and tips to the club house guys.

[StearnsFTW]

MLB isn't about relationships. It's about everyone looking out for their own best interest.

 

Spoken like a Fantasy Baseball owner. In real life, it's not the case. Baseball players are real human beings with thoughts, feelings, and opinions. The way to get the best out of them, in this day and age anyway, is not to treat them like chattel if you can help it. Stearns crapping on Zach Davies to get a couple of meaningless plate appearances out of marginal player is not a good use of human resources.

 

If his thoughts, feelings and opinions are so self centered that a 10 day trip to the minors, when he wasn't playing anyway, trumps knowing a fringe major league player gets 10 days closer to a pension and a few days in the big dance then I am not sure I care about his thought feelings and opinions. Both players involved are making the same prorated salary. Service time isn't an issue other than it helps Wilkins get closer to a pension so the Brewers are not doing this for money or service time. They are doing it because it makes sense for the roster over the next 10 days. Boras would have no problem disrespecting anyone else if it helped his client for so much as an hour. So his whining rings hollow. Honestly I doubt Davies will have much of a problem when it is all said and done. No matter the reason, it sucks to get sent down so I understand if his first reaction is "what the hell?" I doubt he'll carry a grudge. If he does so what? After his six years of control are over we can't afford him if he's great and he's replaceable if he isn't. As Scott Boras' other client Prince Fielder showed us, being nice doesn't change that dynamic at all.

 

Exactly.

 

This is the stuff you have to put with with the way the CBA is set up. The good news is that he'll get to be wildly overpaid after 6 years if he makes it that long.

[RobertR]

Come on, it's 10days watching baseball. He's not going to pitch with his time off from what it appears. The Brewers can certainly make up for the 24k with his next year's Pre-Arb rate. Give him 575k vs 550 or 540k. Giving Wilkins a ML payday has to be nice for him, and you show something, or watch him be released, but not before he's gotten a nicer check on his 10-14 day stay. Santana has an AS break set to return. So, barring 2HRs or a .500 BA in his brief stay, I'd expect he's just released when Davies can be brought back up for his next start. Wilkins' numbers just don't add up to be worthy of a RF or 1b numbers. Catcher/2b/SS you could maybe stomach them, but any other position and He's not reaching expectations.

 

So, if we agree that the Brewers aren't saving anything this year because they're paying Wilkins, then it's going to cost them an extra $24k next year to make it right to a valuable employee. The cost is a mad employee or $24k to soothe that employee over. Considering that Wilkins may very well go 0-fer his callup, what's the benefit here? Or, heck, maybe they win a game because of a key hit by Wilkins, again what's the benefit of finishing 18 games out of the playoffs as opposed to 19 games out of the playoffs?

 

Saying "other teams do it" may be true. That doesn't make it smart. Especially when an extra win really has no value to the Brewers this year and Wilkins has no long term (or arguably short term) value. I'd argue that this is a bad move, simply because there's no benefit to it.

[JohnBriggs12]

$24k, plus per diem plus the inconvenience of a sudden move, is more than enough to be "self-centered". That's an awful cavalier attitude. Shouldn't Wilkins feel bad that he took money and service time from Davies all the while not moving the odds of the Brewers making the post-season one iota?

 

Zach Davies didn't deserve to lose one cent by being sent down. There's no short term gain to the Brewers by calling up Wilkins. You ended up punishing a valuable employee, and yes I consider $24k to a pre-arbitration player a punishment, while gaining nothing in the exchange. That's poor people management, whether the employee in question makes $24k per year or $500k per year.

 

Again, what's the gain? Wilkins stinks, has no future with the organization, and doesn't even play a position of need. Meanwhile, a performing player is justifiably mad at the organization for costing him a chunk of change. There's no calculus where this is a good move for the organization as they're not even close to contending. It doesn't make sense because what happens to the Brewers record over the next 10 days will a) not be related to Wilkins in any significant way and b) will have no long term effect on the organization.

 

You summed it up nicely Robert. Not only is Davies ticked off, other guys take notice. They know Davies has performed to a level that deserves better.

[jerichoholicninja]

I'm pretty sure the only people making a big deal out of this are Boras and a couple posters here. Every player understands what happened. Doesn't mean they like it but they get it and know this how the current system is set up. And if Zach holds some grudge against the Brewers the rest of his life and refuses to ever sign a contract here because of it he's a petty little turd.

[Thurston Fluff]

$24k, plus per diem plus the inconvenience of a sudden move, is more than enough to be "self-centered". That's an awful cavalier attitude. Shouldn't Wilkins feel bad that he took money and service time from Davies all the while not moving the odds of the Brewers making the post-season one iota?

 

Zach Davies didn't deserve to lose one cent by being sent down. There's no short term gain to the Brewers by calling up Wilkins. You ended up punishing a valuable employee, and yes I consider $24k to a pre-arbitration player a punishment, while gaining nothing in the exchange. That's poor people management, whether the employee in question makes $24k per year or $500k per year.

 

Again, what's the gain? Wilkins stinks, has no future with the organization, and doesn't even play a position of need. Meanwhile, a performing player is justifiably mad at the organization for costing him a chunk of change. There's no calculus where this is a good move for the organization as they're not even close to contending. It doesn't make sense because what happens to the Brewers record over the next 10 days will a) not be related to Wilkins in any significant way and b) will have no long term effect on the organization.

 

You summed it up nicely Robert. Not only is Davies ticked off, other guys take notice. They know Davies has performed to a level that deserves better.

 

I just don't buy this line of thinking. Players also take notice that someone else is getting his 15 minutes. Davies will have more than 15 minutes when all is said and done. Wilkens probably not. They also notice that Wilkens has accrued some major league service time and will be 10 days closer to a pension. A pension mind you that will pay him more than the $24,000 Davies lost every year for the rest of his life once he hits retirement age. That matters to players.

It's obvious this wasn't about money and players can see that too.

And lets stop pretending players only care about other major league players and couldn't give a rat's behind less about the career miner leaguer or fringe players. All these players came up through the system and know how many players never get a shot. These players don't just become friends with other players destined to have long major league careers. They all have friends that will never see the light of day on a major league roster. So I have little doubt they also understand that, while it's 10 days of suckitude for Davies, it's a great time for Wilkens. Add to that Davies has a lot more days ahead of him and Wilkens may never see another day in the majors again. If he does I doubt it will be nearly as many of Davies. They are just as happy for Wilkens as they are sad for Davies.

[brewcrewdue80]

Come on, it's 10days watching baseball. He's not going to pitch with his time off from what it appears. The Brewers can certainly make up for the 24k with his next year's Pre-Arb rate. Give him 575k vs 550 or 540k. Giving Wilkins a ML payday has to be nice for him, and you show something, or watch him be released, but not before he's gotten a nicer check on his 10-14 day stay.

 

So, if we agree that the Brewers aren't saving anything this year because they're paying Wilkins, then it's going to cost them an extra $24k next year to make it right to a valuable employee. The cost is a mad employee or $24k to soothe that employee over. Considering that Wilkins may very well go 0-fer his callup, what's the benefit here? Or, heck, maybe they win a game because of a key hit by Wilkins, again what's the benefit of finishing 18 games out of the playoffs as opposed to 19 games out of the playoffs?

 

Saying "other teams do it" may be true. That doesn't make it smart. Especially when an extra win really has no value to the Brewers this year and Wilkins has no long term (or arguably short term) value. I'd argue that this is a bad move, simply because there's no benefit to it.

 

It benefits Wilkins certainly. This could be his Only ML experience in his lifetime. And if that is so, Davies if he's any kind of Man, won't sit there and be a complete douche about it like Boras is. It's a good faith move imo on the Brewers part to give Wilkins some ABs.

For Davies 24k is a chunk of money for him, yes, but for Mark A and the Brewers ownership, paying 24k more next season to compensate Davies is pennies to these guys. And especially so when Payroll is more than Half what it was last season! The benefit is to Wilkins and his family. Maybe one of these PH situations Wilkins does something special.

 

For Davies or other players to hold a grudge against teams for 10days roughly with all the money they are set to make, I don't believe in it. Why have that attitude? Flat out, you're not taking the mound once in this timeframe, we can however have extra bat to PH or give someone a day off.

Being upset about this move, just goes along the lines of what today's society is. Entitled. Sit back let your bosses do their job be grateful they are employing you. Is it a guarantee Baltimore would have him Starting games for them this season even earning a ML paycheck? I dunno if he'd have 15 games Started being with Baltimore still. Pitching vs. the Powerful AL East. Gets hammered and sent down potential. He's in a situation where he can relax, pitch and not worry about his results compared to if he was in Baltimore where every Start means Division Leading consequences/Playoff future stress. It's just like the deal Boston did for Hill. Aaron Wilkerson who has stats that are Promotion worthy instead being traded away, because his overall potential supposedly, is something Boston felt wasn't fit to be put in to a Playoff race as a Rookie. FWIW, Davies is over a 4ERA along with Fip. This isn't like Taylor Jungmann through 15games having under a 2.5ERA last season and now being demoted.

 

Did Boras open his mouth when Trea Turner played 2games, went 3-3 with 1 BB and get optioned back to the minors? It's a business decisions are made that are agreed with or argued against. While Davies/Boras can voice partial displeasure, Wilkins and his Agent will be voicing gratefulness for the opportunity.

[Austin Tatious]

I'm in the camp that I wouldn't have done it. If you talked to Davies and he welcomed it, that could be different but an unlikely situation. There is a psychological aspect and morale of all of the players.

 

It's different from the situation where a player is struggling and needs some minor league attention and work to get back on track, like Peralta or JJ Hardy years ago.

[RobertR]

Come on, it's 10days watching baseball. He's not going to pitch with his time off from what it appears. The Brewers can certainly make up for the 24k with his next year's Pre-Arb rate. Give him 575k vs 550 or 540k. Giving Wilkins a ML payday has to be nice for him, and you show something, or watch him be released, but not before he's gotten a nicer check on his 10-14 day stay.

 

So, if we agree that the Brewers aren't saving anything this year because they're paying Wilkins, then it's going to cost them an extra $24k next year to make it right to a valuable employee. The cost is a mad employee or $24k to soothe that employee over. Considering that Wilkins may very well go 0-fer his callup, what's the benefit here? Or, heck, maybe they win a game because of a key hit by Wilkins, again what's the benefit of finishing 18 games out of the playoffs as opposed to 19 games out of the playoffs?

 

Saying "other teams do it" may be true. That doesn't make it smart. Especially when an extra win really has no value to the Brewers this year and Wilkins has no long term (or arguably short term) value. I'd argue that this is a bad move, simply because there's no benefit to it.

 

It benefits Wilkins certainly. This could be his Only ML experience in his lifetime. And if that is so, Davies if he's any kind of Man, won't sit there and be a complete douche about it like Boras is. It's a good faith move imo on the Brewers part to give Wilkins some ABs.

For Davies 24k is a chunk of money for him, yes, but for Mark A and the Brewers ownership, paying 24k more next season to compensate Davies is pennies to these guys. And especially so when Payroll is more than Half what it was last season! The benefit is to Wilkins and his family. Maybe one of these PH situations Wilkins does something special.

 

For Davies or other players to hold a grudge against teams for 10days roughly with all the money they are set to make, I don't believe in it. Why have that attitude? Flat out, you're not taking the mound once in this timeframe, we can however have extra bat to PH or give someone a day off.

Being upset about this move, just goes along the lines of what today's society is. Entitled. Sit back let your bosses do their job be grateful they are employing you. Is it a guarantee Baltimore would have him Starting games for them this season even earning a ML paycheck? I dunno if he'd have 15 games Started being with Baltimore still. Pitching vs. the Powerful AL East. Gets hammered and sent down potential. He's in a situation where he can relax, pitch and not worry about his results compared to if he was in Baltimore where every Start means Division Leading consequences/Playoff future stress. It's just like the deal Boston did for Hill. Aaron Wilkerson who has stats that are Promotion worthy instead being traded away, because his overall potential supposedly, is something Boston felt wasn't fit to be put in to a Playoff race as a Rookie. FWIW, Davies is over a 4ERA along with Fip. This isn't like Taylor Jungmann through 15games having under a 2.5ERA last season and now being demoted.

 

Did Boras open his mouth when Trea Turner played 2games, went 3-3 with 1 BB and get optioned back to the minors? It's a business decisions are made that are agreed with or argued against. While Davies/Boras can voice partial displeasure, Wilkins and his Agent will be voicing gratefulness for the opportunity.

 

Why presume that Davies blames anyone but management? And, IMO, that anger is perfectly justified. He suffers a real harm because of pointless gamesmanship on the part of the Brewers. Gamesmanship that was always unlikely to have any effect.

 

I'm sure players have no ill will towards Wilkins. But his opportunity came at the expense of someone that a) is a valuable player now and should be a valuable player in the future and b) is a player that is not all right with it. You can claim he should be, but clearly he's not. And, frankly, I think it's awfully cavalier to say a player should just give up $24k without a gripe.

 

At least the Nationals are actually competing for the playoffs. That's an apples and oranges situation. A game could mean many things. There's a real benefit.

 

Is this a big deal in the long run? Probably not. It's probably not something that can't be fixed either. But, nobody has ever made an argument that there's any kind of significant benefit out of the deal. Why make a young player mad, for legitimate reasons, when the team isn't gaining anything in the bargain? There's no benefit to the cost.

[logan82]

Is this a big deal in the long run? Probably not.

That is all that really matters. It probably isn't a big deal in the long run and could have huge benefits for the team. You almost never hear about players not resigning with a team because of stuff like this. Remember back when Fielder didn't want to sign his contract with the Brewers because they didn't offer him a significant raise? He signed a two year contract the next year that avoided the first two years of his arbitration.

 

MLB is just not about relationships. Especially when the agent is Boras. It's about money. Whoever offers the most money or close to it will get the player. Milwaukee can't compete or come close to competing for the biggest contracts.

[RobertR]

Is this a big deal in the long run? Probably not.

That is all that really matters. It probably isn't a big deal in the long run and could have huge benefits for the team. You almost never hear about players not resigning with a team because of stuff like this. Remember back when Fielder didn't want to sign his contract with the Brewers because they didn't offer him a significant raise? He signed a two year contract the next year that avoided the first two years of his arbitration.

 

MLB is just not about relationships. Especially when the agent is Boras. It's about money. Whoever offers the most money or close to it will get the player. Milwaukee can't compete or come close to competing for the biggest contracts.

 

 

Explain what the "huge benefits" to the team are. I see no benefits from the move.

 

I just don't see the point of messing with a player that might be part of the team's long term plans. It doesn't even matter if Boras is Zach Davies agent. It affects how other young players perceive the organization.

[MrTPlush]

Wow if this is how you guys react to Davies losing $24k I can't wait to see the threads when we intentionally delay service time clocks next year. That, honestly, is probably 100x worse and costs many players millions.

 

Boras threw out the bait and you guys took it.

[logan82]

Is this a big deal in the long run? Probably not.

That is all that really matters. It probably isn't a big deal in the long run and could have huge benefits for the team. You almost never hear about players not resigning with a team because of stuff like this. Remember back when Fielder didn't want to sign his contract with the Brewers because they didn't offer him a significant raise? He signed a two year contract the next year that avoided the first two years of his arbitration.

 

MLB is just not about relationships. Especially when the agent is Boras. It's about money. Whoever offers the most money or close to it will get the player. Milwaukee can't compete or come close to competing for the biggest contracts.

 

 

Explain what the "huge benefits" to the team are. I see no benefits from the move.

 

I just don't see the point of messing with a player that might be part of the team's long term plans. It doesn't even matter if Boras is Zach Davies agent. It affects how other young players perceive the organization.

Extra year of service time. Huge for a team with limited payroll.

 

I doubt it has more than a minimal effect. The players understand how these things work. Teams like Milwaukee have t handle things this way because they can't buy talent like other clubs.

[502 to Right]

Wilkins goes 0 for 4 with no starts in his stint with the big club. Brilliant move.

[Baldkin]

Wilkins goes 0 for 4 with no starts in his stint with the big club. Brilliant move.

 

If my math is correct, if Wilkins gets 14 days of service time this season, he will qualify for the MLB pension. If they decide to start Davies on the 19th (after an off day) that, I believe, would give him his 14 days.

[logan82]

Wilkins goes 0 for 4 with no starts in his stint with the big club. Brilliant move.

Yeah, results are the definite way to judge a move.

[And That]

Wilkins goes 0 for 4 with no starts in his stint with the big club. Brilliant move.

 

If my math is correct, if Wilkins gets 14 days of service time this season, he will qualify for the MLB pension. If they decide to start Davies on the 19th (after an off day) that, I believe, would give him his 14 days.

If my math is correct, Baldkin's post was the 300,000th on the Major League forum.

 

You win nothing.

[TheCrew07]

I just don't like the hypocrisy inherent in these debates.

 

If it's a business for a player, then it should be a business for the team as well.

 

This isn't on the same level as Melvin screwing JJ Hardy by sending him down to the minors simply to steal another year of service time. The team was playing by the rules, it doesn't effect Davie's service time, and if 24K is that big of a deal it's been pointed out the team can make that up.

 

Was it a necessary move? No I don't think the Brewers are in a position for "every potential win matters", but I do find it interesting that such a sort term event gets 5 pages worth of discussion.

 

As for Boras, he can suck it. I find it irritating that someone with such limited perspective is so good at what they do.

[502 to Right]

Wilkins goes 0 for 4 with no starts in his stint with the big club. Brilliant move.

Yeah, results are the definite way to judge a move.

 

It was an obviously low upside move from the beginning as was identified by several people in this thread when the move was first made.

[BuckyBrewer61]

I just don't like the hypocrisy inherent in these debates.

 

If it's a business for a player, then it should be a business for the team as well.

 

I agree with this sentiment, and feel this is a bit of a mountain being made of a mole hill.

 

But, part of the business of a baseball team is attracting players. And if this contributes to players in general feeling in any small way like the Brewers don't treat their players right, I'd argue it wasn't worth whatever tiny amount of money was saved or hitless at bats were gained. It's tough enough to attract players to Milwaukee, no need to add to that challenge.

[jerichoholicninja]

I just don't like the hypocrisy inherent in these debates.

 

If it's a business for a player, then it should be a business for the team as well.

 

I agree with this sentiment, and feel this is a bit of a mountain being made of a mole hill.

 

But, part of the business of a baseball team is attracting players. And if this contributes to players in general feeling in any small way like the Brewers don't treat their players right, I'd argue it wasn't worth whatever tiny amount of money was saved or hitless at bats were gained. It's tough enough to attract players to Milwaukee, no need to add to that challenge.

 

Any player that can choose to play for Milwaukee will almost certainly be out of options (free agent) or just happy to be in the majors (Wilkins) so this situation is really irrelevant to that.

[Fear The Chorizo]

But, part of the business of a baseball team is attracting players

 

And 99.9999% of attracting players when they actually have the choice of what team to sign with in free agency is who has the most $ to give them. The odds of Milwaukee suddenly becoming a "destination team" for veteran free agents are pretty much zero when they are the smallest market in all of baseball. With the current economic structure across the league, that's probably a good thing to force the Brewers to emphasize building from within.

 

Nobody is going to look at organizational transaction histories around the all star break that were prompted by a team trading away a bat and needing to find a way to call up a replacement bench bat without subjecting anyone to waivers.

[Boomer5]

I get the move. It wasn't the classiest thing to do but the guy wasn't going to pitch so in theory his roster spot could go to someone who could contribute.

 

On the other hand the guy Davies made room for was Wilkins, not Hank Aaron.

 

Boras was just doing his job protecting his client.

[RobertR]

When did it become good business to take money out of the pocket of a performing employee for no organizational benefit? You think any business school would endorse that?

 

I agree that this thread has gone much too long. But I think the Brewers should learn a lesson from it. Wilkins predictably didn't make a difference. Sometimes it's better to do nothing.