Ventura / Machado Fight - How to Move Baseball Beyond Beanball Wars

[SRB]

I'm machados first at bat Ventura buzzed him up and in 3 straight times. Unless there's some history nobody knows about, there's no reason for this. Should Manny have charged the mound? Nah. But it wasn't just one pitch. Ventura was going up and in over and over until he got a reaction. If Ventura had "just" hit machado with a pitch that would be one thing but he was throwing at him multiple pitches in a row. Like others have said, the pitchers get to stand out there and fire a ball at the guy consequence free.

 

I'm not defending Ventura. I simply think Machado is an even bigger idiot.

 

The HBP was most likely because after Ventura pitched him inside earlier in the game (totally legitimate to do that), Machado stood to admire what turned out to be a warning track flyout.

 

So it goes back to "you watched a flyball....my feelings were hurt, now I will physically assault you"

 

That's idiocy in its purest form.

 

Yes, and so is "you lost your temper and hit me with a pitch...my feelings were hurt, now I will physically assault you"

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

Yes, and so is "you lost your temper and hit me with a pitch...my feelings were hurt, now I will physically assault you"

 

When you get drilled with a 99 mph fastball, it's not really your feelings that are hurt at that point.

[danzig6767]

If baseball wants this to stop, it's fairly simple. Fine teams. Suspend managers. Give Yost a suspension. Suspend Maddon for saying players should police the game. Fine teams 6 figures the first time with higher penalties for clearly intentional acts and exponential penalties for repeated violations. Within 5 years everything would be cleaned up.

Doesn't need to be that complicated. Simply give hefty suspensions to pitchers who as a league you deem intentionally hit batters, not in small suspensions which normally are handed out.

 

If i was running baseball, i'd give Ventura 20 games to let it be known that i will no longer tolerate intentionally throwing at hitters.

 

Baseball has changed rules for safety reasons on running into catchers and at second base because they believe the defenders at those places are to defenseless. Well, who in the game is more defenseless than a batter when a pitcher decides to fire a 90 plus MPH fastball at him and the injury risk which comes along with that?

 

The league IMO isn't being truly serious about player safety so long as they keep handing out minor suspensions to pitchers who for lame reasons feel they can intentionally throw baseballs at batters. Hand out serious suspensions to guys like Ventura and this nonsense will happen far less often.

[Hammer]

I'm thinking that they will both get a 5ish game suspension when all is said and done. The last thing that MLB needs is even more wussification and less "red ass" and "passion". While I agree that Ventura is a punk, at least he isn't a complete wet blanket like the vast majority of the players in this era...

[danzig6767]

While I agree that Ventura is a punk, at least he isn't a complete wet blanket like the vast majority of the players in this era...

Yea, he's a real tough guy. Fire a pitch at a hitter like a douchebag when he knows that he'll never have to step in the batters box himself and face retaliation, but instead it would be his teammates who have to step in that box wondering if they'll be the one to get hit because their pitcher has paper thin skin. No surprise that his own teammates are tired of his act.

[Baldkin]

 

So it goes back to "you watched a flyball....my feelings were hurt, now I will physically assault you"

 

That's idiocy in its purest form.

 

Yes, and so is "you lost your temper and hit me with a pitch...my feelings were hurt, now I will physically assault you"

 

I just want to be sure that I understand your entire argument. It's perfectly fine for pitchers to bean whomever they want, whenever they want, and when they do they should get 1 game suspensions.

 

However, any retaliation by a batter deserves a much larger suspension.

[LouisEly]

These sort of altercations are so stupid, BUT it was also sickly satisfying to see a hotheaded pitcher actually held accountable directly by the victim for his actions. It gets really annoying how you see pitchers like Ventura & Gerrit Cole act tough and pretend to be the enforcers of these unwritten rules, while knowing that any repercussions will likely be directed at a teammate and not them.

 

The DDT Machado landed was a nice touch as well. Almost as comical as the Nolan Ryan/Robin Ventura headlock.

Speaking of Nolan Ryan, if pitchers during his tenure were held accountable for throwing at batters how many games would/should he have been suspended during his career?

[Baldkin]

These sort of altercations are so stupid, BUT it was also sickly satisfying to see a hotheaded pitcher actually held accountable directly by the victim for his actions. It gets really annoying how you see pitchers like Ventura & Gerrit Cole act tough and pretend to be the enforcers of these unwritten rules, while knowing that any repercussions will likely be directed at a teammate and not them.

 

The DDT Machado landed was a nice touch as well. Almost as comical as the Nolan Ryan/Robin Ventura headlock.

Speaking of Nolan Ryan, if pitchers during his tenure were held accountable for throwing at batters how many games would/should he have been suspended during his career?

 

For his career he averaged 1 HBP per every 34 IP. MLB Average this season: 1 in every 27 IP.

[stoutdude04]

9 for ventura. 4 for machado.

[Ennder]

Seems fair. Ventura actually has to miss a start that way.

[pacopete4]

Should've been more than 10 so he has to miss two starts

[DuWayne Steurer]

Logistically, there's no difference between a 9 game suspension or a 6 game suspension for a starting pitcher.

[jerichoholicninja]

If you want to stop this make the suspensions matter. By that I mean no appealing until your team plays a weak opponent and then dropping it. Any suspension 3 games or more starts immediately and the appeal happens within a day or two. With today's technology there's no reason an appeal has to take weeks to happen.

[Invader3K]

I see no issue here. Fight on

 

Agreed. Who cares if grown men fight? Potential for injury? Meh. Maybe Grienke got injured in a brawl? Can't remember any others. I love brawls. Good fun.

Well, sometimes they do get a bit too out of hand. There was the brawl a few years ago where Johnny Cueto ended Jason Larue's career, kicking him in the head.

[MadThinker88]

Here is another idea for changing suspensions, appeals and impacts.

 

If you appeal and lose the appeal, the suspension is extended by 50% (standard rounding rules apply, ie 3 games appealed and lost adds 1.5 games which becomes 2 games added and so forth)....

 

It would mean players/ agents/ teams need to be more calculated on what to appeal and what to outright accept and move on from..

[jerichoholicninja]

Here is another idea for changing suspensions, appeals and impacts.

 

If you appeal and lose the appeal, the suspension is extended by 50% (standard rounding rules apply, ie 3 games appealed and lost adds 1.5 games which becomes 2 games and so forth)....

 

It would mean players/ agents/ teams need to be more calculated on what to appeal and what to outright accept and move on from..

 

How often does a player lose? Pretty much never.

[MadThinker88]

I don't know of a database that tracks it, but I would guess lost appeals are around 33%.

 

Didn't JoeyBats appeal his item from the Cano fight and lose???

[1992casey]

Aren't most suspensions cut in approximately half, which would split the difference between one side or the other "winning"?

[Ennder]

Logistically, there's no difference between a 9 game suspension or a 6 game suspension for a starting pitcher.

 

 

Of course there is a difference. It is the difference between your start being pushed off 1 day and being pushed off 4 days. A 6 day suspension is nothing at all for a pitcher, you just use the days off to swap the pitchers order and don't even miss a start by the end of the year most likely.

[MrTPlush]

I see no issue here. Fight on

 

Agreed. Who cares if grown men fight? Potential for injury? Meh. Maybe Grienke got injured in a brawl? Can't remember any others. I love brawls. Good fun.

Well, sometimes they do get a bit too out of hand. There was the brawl a few years ago where Johnny Cueto ended Jason Larue's career, kicking him in the head.

 

Yah sometimes it gets out of hand...but not enough where I think we need to over think this and hand out fines, suspend managers, and suspend players for a ridiculous amount of games. In all honesty brawls in general are pretty rare for the amount of games played. Then when you consider most are just big screaming fights with maybe a shove it is this tiny grain of sand where punches are actually thrown.

 

It was a brawl, two players went too far, and they got suspensions. I don't see the problem.

[Patrick425]

I see no issue here. Fight on

 

Agreed. Who cares if grown men fight?

 

Because they are grown men.

 

I realize that things are different in the sports world and these incidents will always happen when you are constantly battling for wins and that is the nature of your profession. However I'm going to go off on a tangent a little and just say that in general, day to day situations, I get really tired of the "grown men" I see that clearly are looking for an excuse to get into a fight. I don't like what you said, or the way you looked at me, or the fact that you took exception to my unwarranted rudeness towards you....so instead of trying to settle the issue in some intelligent, non-violent manner, I'm going to prove I'm right by displaying my misdirected pride through brute force. I swear, I go to a local summer festival and at times it's like watching a bunch of cavemen who only react to situations based on instinct and zero thought.

 

What does this have to do with a baseball brawl? Maybe not much, but it all contributes to the culture in some manner. The over-served slob in the stands that sees this "action" on the field, and this has the effect of doubling his levels of testosterone as well as his eagerness to find an outlet for it. God forbid there is fan from the other team in the stands near him. This is why I made the choice to sit in the family section many years ago. I enjoy drinking, but I can live without it for 3 hours in order to avoid some of the behavior I have witnessed in other sections.

[LouisEly]

For his career he averaged 1 HBP per every 34 IP. MLB Average this season: 1 in every 27 IP.

In Nolan Ryan's day you didn't have guys standing on top of the plate wearing body armor. I dare say a much higher % of those HBPs by Ryan were intentional than the MLB average this season. I also dare say that Nolan Ryan has much better control than the average MLB pitcher this year.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I see no issue here. Fight on

 

Agreed. Who cares if grown men fight?

 

Because they are grown men.

 

I realize that things are different in the sports world and these incidents will always happen when you are constantly battling for wins and that is the nature of your profession. However I'm going to go off on a tangent a little and just say that in general, day to day situations, I get really tired of the "grown men" I see that clearly are looking for an excuse to get into a fight. I don't like what you said, or the way you looked at me, or the fact that you took exception to my unwarranted rudeness towards you....so instead of trying to settle the issue in some intelligent, non-violent manner, I'm going to prove I'm right by displaying my misdirected pride through brute force. I swear, I go to a local summer festival and at times it's like watching a bunch of cavemen who only react to situations based on instinct and zero thought.

 

What does this have to do with a baseball brawl? Maybe not much, but it all contributes to the culture in some manner. The over-served slob in the stands that sees this "action" on the field, and this has the effect of doubling his levels of testosterone as well as his eagerness to find an outlet for it. God forbid there is fan from the other team in the stands near him. This is why I made the choice to sit in the family section many years ago. I enjoy drinking, but I can live without it for 3 hours in order to avoid some of the behavior I have witnessed in other sections.

 

 

I had a job interview recently, and one of the questions I was asked was "without knowing how we handle the situation here, how would you handle an interpersonal problem with a fellow employee?"

 

me: "Well, when I worked in construction at a concrete company, It seemed like we had fistfights when we had a problem with someone else, But here, in an office setting, I'm sure that's frowned upon, and I would get fired, plus I'm older and wiser, so I would talk to the person, see if we could work like adults to resolve the issue, and then if that didn't work, I would talk to my supervisor"

 

 

The two interviewers laughed (probably not sure if I was serious) but it does show how absurd in some ways it is that in certain situations and social settings, physical violence seems to not only be accepted, but expected, when in others, we are totally capable of comporting ourselves like grown adults and using our words to resolve adult situations.

[danzig6767]

If you want to stop this make the suspensions matter. By that I mean no appealing until your team plays a weak opponent and then dropping it. Any suspension 3 games or more starts immediately and the appeal happens within a day or two. With today's technology there's no reason an appeal has to take weeks to happen.

Make it 20 games and then maybe pitchers stop doing this.

[TURBO]

why not suspend starting pitchers for "games started" instead of total games. Total games for a starting pitcher is a joke. Suspend them games started, based on their teams typical starting rotation.