Edge-of-the-roster players

[MNBrew]

A side comment here.... Two months into the season, it's interesting to remember how there was so much advocacy for many of the waiver claims & formerly-high-ceiling talents late in the winter & through ST. So far, most of those guys haven't proven to be much more than edge-of-the-roster players. A few have trended upward (Villar, Guerra) or at least not dumpster-worthy (Nieuwenhuis), but it's interesting just how many of those potential nuggets are playing in the minors now (Walsh, Jungmann, Rivera) or aren't much above getting sent down to that level (Broxton, Flores, Goforth).

 

Inevitably we knew this was a very possible scenario. Maybe if nothing else, after years of Doug Melvin's relative success with many of these types, even if it's not surprising, still it's a little disappointing how so few of these guys are earning loads of critical playing time.

[Crash2303]

flores has a .370+ OBP in May, Liriano still hasn't seen the field (no pun intended) still has a lot of upside, and Broxton is hitting stride in the game he has started since being back up from his recent AAA tear. Perez has been playing great, Pinto & Pina holy cow, cecchini has been finding his game again, and marinez, torres, and Ramirez could establish themselves in our bullpen or return some lottery tickets at the trade deadline. just trying to stay positive.

 

on another note- with the guys coming off DL in the next week or so, I think Capuano, Goforth, and Presley could all be removed from the 40 man without much risk of being taken or loss if they were.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't see Goforth coming off the 40 man just yet. His option makes him valuable. But Presley or and Capuano, absolutely. They've got Presley clones in AAA in Peterson and Young ready if they need them so even if Presley ended up elsewhere, no big deal. Capuano simply isn't needed.

 

I would hardly say Broxton's "hitting his stride" though. He had a nice two hit game against an awful Red pitching staff last week, but he's 0 for 7 with 3 more K's since. When he gets his BA up to say .150, and reduces his K's to one every 3 AB's then he's making progress.

[Crash2303]

just trying to find the positives- lol. Broxton's only started 4 games since may 25 but in those he's riding a .375 OB%. let's hope he can keep it going and keep improving with more consistent ABs. but, with Santana coming off the DL soon- they may be harder to come by.

 

and fwiw, since coming back from DL on May 20, Peterson's 15 for 30 in 8 games with 3 HR and 5 doubles for an insane 1.579 OPS. this may be his last chance to stay out of AAAA no man's land, if he's not there already.

[ZBTMP]

A side comment here.... Two months into the season, it's interesting to remember how there was so much advocacy for many of the waiver claims & formerly-high-ceiling talents late in the winter & through ST. So far, most of those guys haven't proven to be much more than edge-of-the-roster players. A few have trended upward (Villar, Guerra) or at least not dumpster-worthy (Nieuwenhuis), but it's interesting just how many of those potential nuggets are playing in the minors now (Walsh, Jungmann, Rivera) or aren't much above getting sent down to that level (Broxton, Flores, Goforth).

 

Inevitably we knew this was a very possible scenario. Maybe if nothing else, after years of Doug Melvin's relative success with many of these types, even if it's not surprising, still it's a little disappointing how so few of these guys are earning loads of critical playing time.

 

Villar and Guerra have been worth 2.5 wins which is pretty darn good. Nieuwy is striking out far too much but is still on pace for 4 fWAR/600 PA. Flores quietly put up a 96wRC in May and that is pretty much what every projection has him doing in his going forward in his age 24 season.

 

Not much you can do about Nolin, Jones, or Liriano. May still help this franchise, may not.

 

I don't think Jungmann or Rivera were potential nuggets. Besides being with the organization previously, both had significant red flags. Even when Jungmann was rolling, his regression was predictable. Rivera had a .270 OBP in a hitter's paradise in AAA. There was little reason to expect him to hit in the bigs this year.

 

The goal wasn't for the scrap bin to make us a contender, but get us closer to the ultimate goal by finding useful pieces. I'm having a hard time calling it disappointing compared to previous strategy of paying little attention to the fringes of the roster and coming with a locked everyday lineup.

[danzig6767]

I don't see Goforth coming off the 40 man just yet. His option makes him valuable. But Presley or and Capuano, absolutely. They've got Presley clones in AAA in Peterson and Young ready if they need them so even if Presley ended up elsewhere, no big deal. Capuano simply isn't needed.

 

I would hardly say Broxton's "hitting his stride" though. He had a nice two hit game against an awful Red pitching staff last week, but he's 0 for 7 with 3 more K's since. When he gets his BA up to say .150, and reduces his K's to one every 3 AB's then he's making progress.

Goforth sucks, i don't care if he has an option left.

 

As for Broxton, yea he strikes out way to much. That said, this is exactly the type of season to let him get consistent playing time, even if he struggles so the team can make a more informed opinion as to whether Broxton can hit big league pitching. Why bother playing guys like Presley and Nieuwenhuis so often instead of Broxton given we already know that those two are fringe veterans with no long term upside?

 

Broxton should be getting at least five starts a week in CF and let him sink or swim. Same for Perez at thirdbase. Let both show what they can do with near everyday playing time. If either or both prove that they can't be productive with that many at bats, so be it. Then at least the team will have that answer with both vs giving them only sporadic starts.

[pacopete4]

I'm okay with Perez starting if that means no Scooter. Can't believe I'm saying this but Hill is the superior player there. I hope someone is dumb enough to take Scooter off our hands.

[FVBrewerFan]

I guess I don't remember anyone expecting all these guys to pan out? The idea was to sign or trade for these guys for almost nothing, so low risk and potential for high return. Even if just Villar is a keeper beyond next season, that's not bad filling 1 out 8 starting positions from a bunch of guys that cost nothing.

[pogokat]

I'm glad a few of you have pointed out Flores' May--- he's actually looked like a major leaguer the last few weeks. Villar has obviously been worth the tiny investment. Broxton murdered AAA--- he just needs some time-- his tools are loud, and his confidence is on the rise.

[And That]

I keep saying it... Flores has a great swing and a good eye. He's lacking for power and speed, but given the chance the bat will play.

[brewmann04]

I can live with Flores but not with him and Kirk and Pressley ..

[danzig6767]

I keep saying it... Flores has a great swing and a good eye. He's lacking for power and speed, but given the chance the bat will play.

He only has four extra base hits in 105 at bats. I like the patience he shows with 14 walks drawn, but i don't see him having much of a future as an outfielder in the big leagues as basically a singles hitter with mediocre speed. If he was a guy who could at least hit a bunch of doubles, it would be easier to stomach his severe lack of home run power.

 

Granted, 105 at bats is a very small sample, but he hasn't impressed me much because nothing about him stands out, defensively or at the plate.

[dlk9s]

I'm pretty surprised that most of the waiver claims ended up to be edge-of-the-roster players. Shocked, even.

[CheezWizHed]

I'd say that if are finding viable MLB players on 10% of waiver pickups, you are doing pretty good.

[MNBrew]

Three points & one musing following up my opener:

 

1) Clarifying: I wasn't being critical of anything in particular -- or necessarily even critical -- rather just noting the perspective we have now being 2 full months into the season. There were some among these fringe guys I liked & rooted for, too.

2) If 10% of waivers claims becoming MLB-viable players is a good success rate, than Melvin's far more shrewd & successful than many on this board would ever dare admit they should give him credit for.

3) Rivera was roster-fringe, sure, but not with significant red flags, especially not in this way (suggested above): Yes, you can point out his .270 OBP in AAA for the production level it was. However, that only looks at the surface. He was our best SS prospect for a reason 'til Arcia started shining a couple years ago. More to the point, though, he was really supposed to be developing at AA last year, not AAA -- and was at AA until roster needs at AAA forced him up there (a more logical choice as the greater "leave him where he is & don't risk messing him up" prospect rightly was Arcia). He was hardly the first decent prospect to struggle when bumped up a level when he really wasn't ready to be (Corey Hart was a perennial case of that after each good year in the minors saw him bumped up a level near the end of the season, only to "lose his game" and totally stink after his "reward" promotion). And the fact is, they didn't come into camp expecting him to make the team. But his play made his making the OD roster the obvious choice at the time. Now he's back to playing everyday in AAA, developing more as he probably should be.

 

Finally, it's also interesting for how much we knew Stearns' approach to player movement would likely be more "contemporary" -- and largely we've liked much of that -- many of us still are much more used to (or grounded in) Melvin's more deliberate approach to & pace of player turnover. It's hard not to wonder if Melvin would've hung onto Walsh all year (a la Enrique Cruz & Wei-Chung Wang, for instance), but Stearns has already rolled the dice on losing his upside due to the lack of progress of his MLB-level downsides to this point. I don't think either Stearns' or Melvin's way is inherently better than the other's -- the pros & cons of both approaches are pretty apparent -- but they sure are different!

[gregmag]

I think for most of us who were, and are, enthusiastic about getting these players, our enthusiasm reflects the low cost of getting them. All of these guys are cheap in three important ways: they haven`t required much talent or money to acquire; they aren`t blocking better players because we don`t have better players; and they aren`t hurting our chances of contending because we couldn`t realistically build a contending team right now anyway.

 

Grading the pickups on that curve, I`m very happy. Obviously I wish Liriano and Nolin hadn`t gotten hurt. Villar and Guera have been very good. Niewenhuis has been serviceable. Perez has looked very good so far. Flores and Broxton have flashed enough talent that I want to see more of them. The relief guys I think are some kind of witness protection pipeline, but they all seem like reasonable guys to take a look at. The guys in the minors are working to play their way back: they`re better backup options than we`ve had at AAA in a while. Also, Hill has proved just how easy it is to find a better 2b option than Gennett.

[wichmae]

Broxton wasnt a waiver claim.

[Outlander]

Neither were Flores, Liriano, Villar, Walsh, Jones. The waiver part of the topic title could probably be deleted but the edge of the roster players and Stearns continuing to find these guys and adding them to the system still stands.

[FVBrewerFan]

Finally, it's also interesting for how much we knew Stearns' approach to player movement would likely be more "contemporary" -- and largely we've liked much of that -- many of us still are much more used to (or grounded in) Melvin's more deliberate approach to & pace of player turnover.

 

They really can't be compared, because goals were completely different under Melvin's regime. Mark A wanted to win it all, or in a year that wasn't possible at least be competitive. That has a huge effect on how you manage the roster.

[gregmag]

MN Brew, your point about Melvin's success with free talent pickups is a good one. He did well with a bunch of those. It's hard to compare him and Stearns, like FV says. Melvin was always just plugging a roster hole here and there. Stearns is doing a wholesale casting call.

[MrTPlush]

As some have said no one should EVER try to compare Melvin and Stearns. They were both trying to build an entirely different roster and were dealing with totally different Mark Attanasio's.

[3and2Fastball]

Once the Brewers are on the verge of contending again, you can compare Stearns in that season to what Melvin did in 2008 or 2011

[jerichoholicninja]

As some have said no one should EVER try to compare Melvin and Stearns. They were both trying to build an entirely different roster and were dealing with totally different Mark Attanasio's.

 

I think what people are saying, and so far I agree with them, is that Doug was able to find a bunch of nobody's off the scrapheap who turned into serviceable major league players. While it's way too early to judge, Stearns scrapheap nobody's have so far just been nobody's.

[MNBrew]

As some have said no one should EVER try to compare Melvin and Stearns. They were both trying to build an entirely different roster and were dealing with totally different Mark Attanasio's.

 

I think what people are saying, and so far I agree with them, is that Doug was able to find a bunch of nobody's off the scrapheap who turned into serviceable major league players. While it's way too early to judge, Stearns scrapheap nobody's have so far just been nobody's.

Thanks. That was exactly my point -- or at least that most of Stearns' pickups are still mostly nobodies.

 

That may be the case for a while, but it's also way too early to judge given the totally different points the franchise was under Melvin over the past 5 years vs. Stearns now . . . . although judged vs. when Melvin first came on board, the organizational points weren't that drastically different (though the nature of their approaches to similar situations still reflects the differences in their approaches -- and I'd argue that each of their respective early time as GM judged in its own context does point out some of the fundamental differences between the eras as much as their approaches).

[CheezWizHed]

2) If 10% of waivers claims becoming MLB-viable players is a good success rate, than Melvin's far more shrewd & successful than many on this board would ever dare admit they should give him credit for.

 

I think your forgetting how many of these guys end up in the minors or cut after ST. Then to be a success, the player has to be a regular starter or BP regular. Most that actually make the team are bench players or end of the BP guys.