Rangers & Blue Jays brawl… Fourteen members of Rangers and Jays disciplined, including Odor (8 games), Gibbons (3 games), Chavez (3 games), and Bautista (1 game)… post 42

[1992casey]

watching a HR while running to 1st base

 

The batter should be doing that. He needs to know where the ball is until it's out of the park.

 

Standing still and watching a home run is another story. We shouldn't even have to debate it from a celebration or taunting standpoint. The stupidity occurs when the ball doesn't go out of the park. That happened to Albert Pujols in Milwaukee. The ball didn't go out, and he got thrown out at second on what should have been an easy double.

[tmwiese55]

That's one of the biggest reasons I hate the Cardinals. THey're the moral authority of baseball and routinely drilled our guys because they were young and disrespectful just doing celebrations, no taunting really. Obviously their biggest beef was with Braun for occasionally watching HRs a bit too long, and the big celebration on the playoff clincher that time. Yet, Pujols was the worst HR stand and watch guy in baseball (maybe #2 after Bonds back in the day). And Carpenter was always barking at the other team, which is directly taunting/confrontational. The double standard of those guys was the worst.

[logan82]

watching a HR while running to 1st base

 

The batter should be doing that. He needs to know where the ball is until it's out of the park.

 

Standing still and watching a home run is another story. We shouldn't even have to debate it from a celebration or taunting standpoint. The stupidity occurs when the ball doesn't go out of the park. That happened to Albert Pujols in Milwaukee. The ball didn't go out, and he got thrown out at second on what should have been an easy double.

or Bill Hall multiple times. I remember at least twice he watched a ball that didn't go out turn into a single.

[CheezWizHed]

watching a HR while running to 1st base

 

I was debating how to say this exactly. But basically I meant any movement out and not just standing there. Braun gets castigated for taking a couple slow steps as he starts his way to first. As long as you aren't just standing and gawking, I can't see it as taunting. Because as 1992casey said, you ought to be watching that ball.

[Ennder]

There is a huge difference between a bat flip and an attitude inspired bat throw that could have hurt anyone on the other team that was outside of the batters box. Don't pretend Bautistas bat flip was just run of the mill here.

[Surhoff5]

There is a huge difference between a bat flip and an attitude inspired bat throw that could have hurt anyone on the other team that was outside of the batters box. Don't pretend Bautistas bat flip was just run of the mill here.

 

You have to be kidding me? Hurt someone? The picture below show where is bat landed! Also, this is the biggest homerun for the franchise in over 20 years.

 

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/USATSI_8861880.jpg

[DuWayne Steurer]

This bat toss doesn't get the hangtime that Joey Bat's does, but it certainly goes further out of the batting circle, if we want to talk about potentially "injuring" someone.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/10/jayson-werth-bat-flip-grand-slam_n_5122887.html

[monty57]

THey're the moral authority of baseball and routinely drilled our guys because they were young and disrespectful just doing celebrations, no taunting really.

 

I think LaRussa used beanballs as a strategy against the Brewers more than using it to uphold "unwritten rules." Everyone knew milksop Macha wouldn't do anything to retaliate, so his teams led the league in HBP by a wide margin. His refusal to take issue with this is probably part of the reason he "lost the clubhouse." Meanwhile, LaRussa knew he could confuse Yost and get him to do something at the wrong time, like hitting the next Cardinal batter, thereby putting the winning runner on base at the start of an inning.

 

LaRussa was the instigator here (and I'm sure he was "having fun" at the Brewers' expense while doing it), so I would have loved to have seen some retaliation. Just do it smartly, like having Weeks turn Carpenter into a punching bag at a time when the Brewers were out of it and the Cardinals were in the playoff race. Then he could come out the next time up and tap Molina on the shin guard (a la B Phillips) and see how Molina reacted :-)

 

CheezWizHed summed it up nicely regarding celebrating vs over-celebrating, and I think most people have a good understanding about what is and isn't acceptable. I like celebrations, but when things go overboard I think the opposing side needs to have some recourse other than calling the Commissioner's office (Macha's strategy, which did nothing but get his team laughed at). Bautista's bat flip was discussed at great length all offseason and into this season, so obviously many people took issue with it, and everyone knew something was likely to happen. He got hit in a way that he wouldn't get hurt, and had he just ran to 1B and let it go, it would have been over. His decision to take issue with it and try to injure the second baseman is what led to the brawl.

 

People celebrate and there isn't issue. Sometimes good people over-celebrate, and then when they get plunked, they shake it off, knowing that they probably deserved it. Sometimes pitchers over-act in hitting someone, and that's when they get charged. One side (hitter vs pitcher) isn't always right and one wrong. Either can go overboard, but as long as the majority of people understand the parameters, things work, as they have for over a century.

 

I agree that the demographics of baseball are changing, and what constitutes "overdoing it" will change with time. That's great, and that's the way change should happen.

[tmwiese55]

So he has to accept something he doesn't agree with but TX didn't? I do get your point and it's sound. Like you said at the end though and I did earlier, the dynamics are changing on it more and more that the public and more players (in this case Batista) think it's stupid to drill people over celebrating. Part of it is probably due to the influx of latin players in recent years, more and more of them play that way and it's just part of the game. I'm sure it's trickling to everyone else to think "yea, who cares if that guy stared at his HR, I can do the same thing and I can get pumped when I strike him out next time in a big situation without having to fear of being accused of being a jerk. Let's just play the game and have fun doing it instead of getting all worked up over small things". If you've even seen American History X the end quote is, "Life's too short to be p#ssed off all the time, it's just not worth it." That's pretty much my take on it.

 

I've made the taunting/celebrating distinction before too and understand it's a tough line to draw. To me it's as simple as are you directing specifically to a player (pointing at them, screaming at them, etc) or just showing emotion with your teammates. But again, the big point for me is that this is all just stupid and distracting from the game, trying to police it down to boredom and not showing any personality. The other two sports and the fans completely accept it and those sports are booming. So it's clearly not turning people away from those sports.

[DuWayne Steurer]

. Either can go overboard, but as long as the majority of people understand the parameters, things work, as they have for over a century.

 

 

Monty, you touch on a lot of good points in your post (long post, so I didn't quote the whole thing), but I am going to take issue with this specific, bolded part.

 

Just because that's the way things have always been in baseball doesn't mean that's the way it should continue to be. I know some people are purists, and don't want things to change (and before you say "strawman", I'm not saying "you said this"), but I just don't get the history angle. Things change. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Sometimes things just change. Throwing a baseball at someone for crowding a plate, for hitting a homerun, for staring at a homerun...... for taking too long to run around the bases, (or running around them too fast).... I don't get it. I never have. That's a part of baseball I simply *don't get*.

 

Some people love it, some people think it doesn't belong in baseball. I'm in that camp. Throwing at people just is not a part of the game I have ever felt was necessary.

 

Baseball has changed a lot in its long history. It will continue to change for better and for worse. For me, personally, I hope that this kind of stuff eventually goes to the wayside. I know it won't, but it's a dream I have anyways.

[tmwiese55]

On that point, smashing into the catcher and 2B are no longer allowed when for 100 years that was just "good hard baseball". For me 2nd base takeouts and subsequent area play of not having to tag the base was one of the dumbest things. Especially once baseball became big business in the 80s/90s, at that point you're deliberately trying to injure someone in the same union as you and potentially cost them millions of dollars. Home plate I at least more understood it since you're defending the plate and run rides on it.

[monty57]

Monty, you touch on a lot of good points in your post (long post, so I didn't quote the whole thing), but I am going to take issue with this specific, bolded part.

 

The "over a century" part was not referencing a specific act, but rather the notion of players mostly "policing" themselves. The opinions of the players will evolve over time, which will mean what is acceptable will change over time. Players used to come into spring training fat & out of shape. It didn't take a rule to change this, it just evolved, likely because team leaders didn't accept it anymore, and the economics of baseball has changed to where it's smart to make it a year-round endeavor. Kind of the "invisible hand" approach.

 

As to the take-out plays at 2B and home plate, I think that had economic appeal to owners. It's very rare that batter who is purposely beaned sustains a long-term injury, but middle infielders and catchers were repeatedly getting hurt on take-out plays. Now that these guys make millions of dollars a year, owners didn't want to take that risk any longer. But this isn't opposite to intentionally hitting someone, as purposefully throwing at a player has been illegal for a long time, it's just impossible to know for sure if the pitcher is purposefully throwing at a player, while it's pretty obvious when a player is nowhere near 2B, or when they bowl over a catcher.

[Baldkin]

THey're the moral authority of baseball and routinely drilled our guys because they were young and disrespectful just doing celebrations, no taunting really.

 

I think LaRussa used beanballs as a strategy against the Brewers more than using it to uphold "unwritten rules." Everyone knew milksop Macha wouldn't do anything to retaliate, so his teams led the league in HBP by a wide margin. His refusal to take issue with this is probably part of the reason he "lost the clubhouse." Meanwhile, LaRussa knew he could confuse Yost and get him to do something at the wrong time, like hitting the next Cardinal batter, thereby putting the winning runner on base at the start of an inning.

 

LaRussa was the instigator here (and I'm sure he was "having fun" at the Brewers' expense while doing it), so I would have loved to have seen some retaliation. Just do it smartly, like having Weeks turn Carpenter into a punching bag at a time when the Brewers were out of it and the Cardinals were in the playoff race. Then he could come out the next time up and tap Molina on the shin guard (a la B Phillips) and see how Molina reacted :-)

 

I just wanted to quote this and get completely off topic, but it started with Yost, and his complete inability to handle LaRussa messing with his head.... to the point that he ordered a Turnbow leadoff bean-ball in a 2 run game while in a playoff race.

 

Macha didn't lose the clubhouse because of LaRussa, he lost the clubhouse because his GM and Owner didn't back him when he tried to bench Braun for a game for not hustling in the field and/or running a ball out to first base (I forget which). Braun threw a hissy fit both in the clubhouse and up to management and they called Macha in and overruled him.