Rangers & Blue Jays brawl… Fourteen members of Rangers and Jays disciplined, including Odor (8 games), Gibbons (3 games), Chavez (3 games), and Bautista (1 game)… post 42

[tmwiese55]

I think it's going to go the opposite. More and more personality will be allowed to be shown and the people doing the retaliation will be the ones getting the suspensions. Therefore the retaliations will stop and celebrating will be allowed. Look at the NBA as another example, after the Artest fight and the Nuggets fights they have basically a complete zero tolerance on fighting, huge suspension otherwise. Really haven't had a big one since and all the petty trash talking and celebrating goes on like no big deal, well because it is not a big deal.

 

As a Brewers fan, did you side with Larusa for repeatedly drilling our best players for minor HR celebrations? Usually for walkoffs and in Braun's cases playoff clinchers.

[monty57]

I think it's going to go the opposite. More and more personality will be allowed to be shown and the people doing the retaliation will be the ones getting the suspensions. Therefore the retaliations will stop and celebrating will be allowed. Look at the NBA as another example, after the Artest fight and the Nuggets fights they have basically a complete zero tolerance on fighting, huge suspension otherwise. Really haven't had a big one since and all the petty trash talking and celebrating goes on like no big deal, well because it is not a big deal.

 

As a Brewers fan, did you side with Larusa for repeatedly drilling our best players for minor HR celebrations? Usually for walkoffs and in Braun's cases playoff clinchers.

 

Reward bullying behavior and penalize standing up for yourself against said behavior. Can't see how that would have a negative effect on society.

[tmwiese55]

Wow, yup baseball celebrations will be ruin of civilization and way to completely ignore the actual discussion with some unknowable thing about what's good for society. What is more bullying than throwing a baseball at someone body? Bullying on a schoolground isn't when a kid makes a homer in kickball and celebrates with his friends on his team, it's when the losing side beats them up for it. Seems like you're looking at it completely backwards to me. Seriously, you're saying that throwing a deadly object at another human and then punch them in the face is proper but jumping up and throwing your bat in happiness/celebration is wrong. Just think about that for a second.

 

Call up Goose Gossage and talk about how back in the day was better and how you used to walk up hill both ways to school.

[Baldkin]

[brewcrewdue80]

You know, if Odor hadn't landed a better punch than Meyweather has thrown in the last decade, this would have nowhere near the response. You can't tell me you are happy that Gomez didn't throw a punch at Brian McCann when he blocked his way at the plate. The Texas team, and fans feel better after what happened vs disgusted. Who here wouldn't just enjoy Yadier Molina getting punched like Odor's by a Brewer?

 

Bautista and Gibbons talk about the Rangers waiting til his final AB of the Season being Cowardly. How about Smart? You hit Bautista in the first game of the season series, how do you think the games are going to go after that? Fielder was hit immediately the following inning. That's game 1. Game 2 has Donaldson getting hit(he was ejected as well in the brawl) Probably see another Ranger hit. Or flat out watch the Jays run out on to the field and have a brawl. 7games to go probably another 5-6 more intentional beanings. 1-3 more brawls. 20-45games missed by players in suspensions.

 

Being "Cowardly" results in little effects vs. it blowing up in first 40games of the season. Probably saved a batter from injury in the retaliation of hit batters. Or harder slides in to 2b.

[tmwiese55]

You know, if Odor hadn't landed a better punch than Meyweather has thrown in the last decade, this would have nowhere near the response. You can't tell me you are happy that Gomez didn't throw a punch at Brian McCann when he blocked his way at the plate. The Texas team, and fans feel better after what happened vs disgusted. Who here wouldn't just enjoy Yadier Molina getting punched like Odor's by a Brewer?

 

Bautista and Gibbons talk about the Rangers waiting til his final AB of the Season being Cowardly. How about Smart? You hit Bautista in the first game of the season series, how do you think the games are going to go after that? Fielder was hit immediately the following inning. That's game 1. Game 2 has Donaldson getting hit(he was ejected as well in the brawl) Probably see another Ranger hit. Or flat out watch the Jays run out on to the field and have a brawl. 7games to go probably another 5-6 more intentional beanings. 1-3 more brawls. 20-45games missed by players in suspensions.

 

Being "Cowardly" results in little effects vs. it blowing up in first 40games of the season. Probably saved a batter from injury in the retaliation of hit batters. Or harder slides in to 2b.

 

Just think, all this fuss over a guy getting excited he hit a walkoff homer in the playoffs and celebrating. What sense does it make? [sarcasm]Often times a pitcher does a fist pump or a minor celebration after a big strikeout in a big situation, what is the unwritten rule to respond to that since pitchers rarely hit? Maybe batters should be able to throw their bat at them like a boomerang? The pitchers need to chill out and stop showing hitters up.[/sarcasm]

[jerichoholicninja]

In every other sport celebrating and some degree of taunting and talking trash is completely accepted. In baseball though, you get drilled with a projectice at 100 mph and punched in the face. Yea, makes sense. I'm with Bryce Harper, let baseball be fun.

 

Yes, being taunted and "trash talked" to is very fun. That's why everyone loves bullies.

 

Football eliminated most celebrations when players took them over the top (i.e. Randy Moss "mooning" the Green Bay crowd and players hiding props in the goal posts to use in their celebrations). I'm sure the concern is that players will continue to try to outdo one another and pretty soon you've got a circus. Do we really want to see players moon-walking around the bases or hiding a cell phone under 2nd base and pretending to call someone to describe the home run they just hit?

 

At some point, respecting other human beings should be considered, and if someone does something to disrespect others, then I can understand when that person/group gets upset about it. And, while some fans may like seeing players "taunt and trash talk," other fans won't want that, and it will turn them off from the game. Personally, I like watching baseball for baseball. I dislike watching someone get "taunted and trashed talked to" in pretty much any situation.

 

Do you watch the NFL? Yes they eliminated prop celebrations, that's about it. Standard first down results in a celebration. Sack the QB, run around and dance after. Huge celebration for every TD, let alone a game winner in the playoffs (equivalent of walk off playoff HR). Then thrown the standard in your face trash talking player do on every play. Umm, I don't think the NFL has a problem with popularity. Do you watch the NBA? It's all trash talking and celebrating for routine 3s or dunks throughout regular season games. The most popular player in the world (Curry) dances and celebrates 3s and even turns and talks trash to the opposing teams bench during the game. NBA is at the height of it's popularity. Which sport does have a problem with popularity, especially among youth? You guessed it, baseball.

 

There are celebrations aplenty in the NFL and most often for totally minor reasons. The opposing team pretty much never has a problem with it. However, celebrating a game winning hit gets you or a teammate drilled.

[monty57]

Wow, yup baseball celebrations will be ruin of civilization and way to completely ignore the actual discussion with some unknowable thing about what's good for society. What is more bullying than throwing a baseball at someone body? Bullying on a schoolground isn't when a kid makes a homer in kickball and celebrates with his friends on his team, it's when the losing side beats them up for it. Seems like you're looking at it completely backwards to me. Seriously, you're saying that throwing a deadly object at another human and then punch them in the face is proper but jumping up and throwing your bat in happiness/celebration is wrong. Just think about that for a second.

 

Call up Goose Gossage and talk about how back in the day was better and how you used to walk up hill both ways to school.

 

 

You think it's fun to watch someone being a jerk. From the tone of your post, I'd guess you have some experience in this field. I think it's good to see someone who is acting like a jerk get punched in the face, as that usually stops said person from continuing to act like a jerk.

 

I still believe that most parents and coaches try to teach sportsmanship. If you can beat someone, beat them and shake their hand after the game. Teasing/taunting/"talking smack" does nothing other than make one person (and their fans) feel "big" at the expense of someone else. Encouraging this behavior and penalizing any retaliation will simply make the behavior worse.

 

I'll stop now, because I really don't feel like continuing this discussion. I'd rather talk about baseball, and not the childish actions of a small portion of a handful of athletes, when most professional athletes are good people.

[tmwiese55]

Wow, yup baseball celebrations will be ruin of civilization and way to completely ignore the actual discussion with some unknowable thing about what's good for society. What is more bullying than throwing a baseball at someone body? Bullying on a schoolground isn't when a kid makes a homer in kickball and celebrates with his friends on his team, it's when the losing side beats them up for it. Seems like you're looking at it completely backwards to me. Seriously, you're saying that throwing a deadly object at another human and then punch them in the face is proper but jumping up and throwing your bat in happiness/celebration is wrong. Just think about that for a second.

 

Call up Goose Gossage and talk about how back in the day was better and how you used to walk up hill both ways to school.

 

 

You think it's fun to watch someone being a jerk. From the tone of your post, I'd guess you have some experience in this field. I think it's good to see someone who is acting like a jerk get punched in the face, as that usually stops said person from continuing to act like a jerk.

 

I still believe that most parents and coaches try to teach sportsmanship. If you can beat someone, beat them and shake their hand after the game. Teasing/taunting/"talking smack" does nothing other than make one person (and their fans) feel "big" at the expense of someone else. Encouraging this behavior and penalizing any retaliation will simply make the behavior worse.

 

I'll stop now, because I really don't feel like continuing this discussion. I'd rather talk about baseball, and not the childish actions of a small portion of a handful of athletes, when most professional athletes are good people.

 

Yea we're not going to agree. The difference is that to me the one who I think is the jerk is the one throwing a deadly object at someone's head or punching them in the face, you think they're the classy ones. Whereas you think the the jerks are the guys celebrating and being happy. Have to say I'm pretty comfortable with my take. You still have yet to address some other points, did you agree with Larusa drilling Braun over and over? Do you not see the other two major sports celebrating like crazy? Do you hate Steph Curry? Do you hate Aaron Rodgers?

 

And no I was never a trash talker or outgoing player in any sport, just not my nature as an easy going shy introvert type. But if we're going to make broad personal generalizations based on this discussion I'm guessing your also the type that wants to instill their morals and religousy social views on all of society too, on issues like gay marriage, marijuana legalization, etc instead of just living your life and letting others live theirs.

[1992casey]

…instill their morals and religousy social views on all of society too, on issues like gay marriage, marijuana legalization…

 

We don't need any of that kind of commentary.

[monty57]

And no I was never a trash talker or outgoing player in any sport, just not my nature as an easy going shy introvert type.

 

Didn't say you were a trash talker. You seem to be quick to want to try to demean me, so I can easily believe that you would love people who "trash talk" and tease others, and would want rules put in place to promote that while eliminating anything that might take away from what you like.

 

But if we're going to make broad personal generalizations based on this discussion I'm guessing your also the type that wants to instill their morals and religousy social views on all of society too, on issues like gay marriage, marijuana legalization, etc instead of just living your life and letting others live theirs.

 

No, I'm Libertarian, which is the epitome of living my life and letting others live theirs. That's why I'm for letting the players police themselves like they have for over a century. They can determine what actions constitute acceptable and non-acceptable behavior far better than you or I, and probably better than the current commissioner. Someone who wants to instill their moral values on another would be one who wants more regulations/laws/rules put in place by a central authority in order to restrict one person in order to benefit another.

 

I don't like people who "talk trash" and taunt and tease others to demean them. That's nothing political, I just don't like people who act that way. Those are the bullies I referenced. The post you originally seemed to have issue with was in response to a poster saying that someone in the NBA punched someone else who was "talking smack," and the NBA responded by heavily penalizing fighting, but not "smack talking," which has lead to a lot more "smack talking" and no retaliation. To me, that doesn't seem like a good end result, as it means more people are acting like asses, both in the sport and those who see those in the sport as "heroes." Hence, my "society" reference.

 

This isn't about someone flipping a bat, it's about what the "celebrations" will become if rules are instilled that promote one behavior ("celebrating") while heavily punishing another behavior (retaliation for over celebration). That will likely lead to really bad behavior (my reference to dancing around the bases and hiding props under bases) and no "peer policing" to stop it, which will lead to more rules put in place to quell this trend, which will lead to more rules, etc. Things are fine as they are, the occurrence of retaliation is rare, and the occurrence of injury during retaliation is basically non-existent (to your point of hurling a deadly projectile). We don't need new rules that would probably make things worse rather than better.

[hawing]

What is Rougned Odor's SLG now vs. before Sunday?

 

The brawl itself isn't funny, but my SO somehow came up with that zinger at lunch today. I can't believe I got to Tuesday without thinking of it or reading it elsewhere.

[Thurston Fluff]

The difference is that to me the one who I think is the jerk is the one throwing a deadly object at someone's head or punching them in the face, you think they're the classy ones.

 

Nobody's head was thrown at. As far as punching someone in the face I tend to think it's more bush to slide into someone's knees in an attempt to hurt them than to stand toe to toe in a fight and land the best punch.

[tmwiese55]

Not sure where I demeaned at all in there other than I suppose the semi political thing at the end. Oh shoot yea I guess the Goose wisecrack, sorry if you took that as more than just a joke, didn't really mean it as a start of an attack or anything. Other than that I really stuck to the points and you never really addressed the real discussion and got off into other stuff which led us down this odd route.

 

I'm libertarian too. I see the way you're using the metaphor I guess. The way I was using is this: people celebrating are just living their lives, people throwing balls at them and punching them for it are the government or moral highgrounders not letting them just do their thing.

 

That said, even going by your take on it that the players will police themselves, I actually think that's the way this is going. Public consensus is on the side of who cares about celebrating and it sure seems player consensus will be that way soon enough if it already isn't too. At which point they'll put in rules saying drilling each other for dumb reasons isn't allowed, that is still players policing themselves because they essentially make the rules.

 

Again the main disagreement comes to I think personality, emotion and celebrating are fine and good for the game, you don't and think they're jerks. I think people throwing stuff at people heads or punching them for it are jerks, you don't. It's that simple and I've laid out some points in support as to my view that won't change your mind because your take is that you just don't like it, which is fine to each their own. Like I said way at the beginning of all this though, consensus is moving the other way on it so you're probably going to have to get used to it.

[tmwiese55]

The difference is that to me the one who I think is the jerk is the one throwing a deadly object at someone's head or punching them in the face, you think they're the classy ones.

 

Nobody's head was thrown at. As far as punching someone in the face I tend to think it's more bush to slide into someone's knees in an attempt to hurt them than to stand toe to toe in a fight and land the best punch.

 

4 months ago that slide was legal and happened on a nearly daily basis. Either way, the throw at heads thing is a general commentary on the practice of intentionally throwing at hitters. Not specific to this one, but really any time you're throwing at someone there's a chance it happens to hit the head because yes it's still going at them and it's easy to be a little off. It just makes no sense to me.

[Thurston Fluff]

4 months ago that slide was legal and happened on a nearly daily basis. It just makes no sense to me.

 

And the reason they made it illegal was because it was dangerous. Either way the legality is irrelevant to the point. Whether that was legal or not it was done to hurt him.

 

Either way, the throw at heads thing is a general commentary on the practice of intentionally throwing at hitters. Not specific to this one, but really any time you're throwing at someone there's a chance it happens to hit the head because yes it's still going at them and it's easy to be a little off.

 

 

With the exception of a complete misfire, which can happen with the same results on any pitch, the odds of them accidentally missing and hitting the head instead of the backside on a fastball is infinitesimally small. If any pitcher was that far off they wouldn't be in the majors.

[1992casey]

Fourteen members of the Jays and Rangers have received discipline. Rougned Odor is out for eight games. Jesse Chavez and John Gibbons are out for three games. José Bautista received a one-game ban.

 

More here:

 

Rougned Odor gets 8-game suspension for punching Jose Bautista

[dlk9s]

Do we really want to see players moon-walking around the bases?

 

YES

[gypcasino]

interesting. Martin Maldonado only got 5 games for bashing Travis Snider's face in a couple years ago and I thought that was worse.

[tmwiese55]

Apparently Khris Davis had a big celebration after his 3rd homer last night that was the game winner. Funny thing is it was vs Texas so they really can't do anything. Normally a celebration like that should warrant many fastballs at someone the next day. Really I don't see why TX didn't just attack them with baseball bats on the field and get the fight going right there, I mean as long as they just hit in the body and not in the head it should be allowed. Can't allow someone to be happy like that, bad for the game.

[jerichoholicninja]

Does it bother anyone else that the Rangers had Matt Bush do the dirty work? The guy has worked hard to turn his life around and become a major leaguer and in his 2nd or 3rd game they tell him to drill someone and everyone on the planet knows it is intentional. That seems pretty bush (no pun intended) to me.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Does it bother anyone else that the Rangers had Matt Bush do the dirty work? The guy has worked hard to turn his life around and become a major leaguer and in his 2nd or 3rd game they tell him to drill someone and everyone on the planet knows it is intentional. That seems pretty bush (no pun intended) to me.

 

 

No, actually, that doesn't surprise me at all.

 

"We know you worked your ass off kid, but if you want to be part of the good ol' boys club, prove you're one of us, and go out there with deadly intent and hit him with a fastball because he hurt our feelings 8 months ago."

Actually, that makes *perfect* sense.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Apparently Khris Davis had a big celebration after his 3rd homer last night that was the game winner. Funny thing is it was vs Texas so they really can't do anything. Normally a celebration like that should warrant many fastballs at someone the next day. Really I don't see why TX didn't just attack them with baseball bats on the field and get the fight going right there, I mean as long as they just hit in the body and not in the head it should be allowed. Can't allow someone to be happy like that, bad for the game.

 

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/178791122/as-khris-davis-slam-caps-three-homer-game

 

+1 creative homerun celebration.

[Bombers]

Apparently Khris Davis had a big celebration after his 3rd homer last night that was the game winner. Funny thing is it was vs Texas so they really can't do anything. Normally a celebration like that should warrant many fastballs at someone the next day. Really I don't see why TX didn't just attack them with baseball bats on the field and get the fight going right there, I mean as long as they just hit in the body and not in the head it should be allowed. Can't allow someone to be happy like that, bad for the game.

 

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/178791122/as-khris-davis-slam-caps-three-homer-game

 

+1 creative homerun celebration.

Ya, that was good. Way to go Krush. Kid can certainly hit the long ball.

[CheezWizHed]

Teams and player can celebrate a victory or a big play without it being in a taunting way. I find it hard to believe that you can't celebrate a big play without hurting the other team's feelings.

 

Taunting:

- Every Chris Carpenter strikeout. Villanueva's strike out of Pujols

- Randy Moss Mooning the crowd.

- standing still and watching a HR

- "cut throat" signs to the other players

- getting in the other team's face after a big play

- Putting the football on the Dallas 50 yd line star after the opposing team scores a TD.

 

Not Taunting:

- bat flip, watching a HR while running to 1st base

- untuckem'

- Lambeau Leap (both the TD celebration and the sister forum at LL.net )

- Jared Allen's sack "tie-up the calf" celebration - no matter how much I hated that one, he didn't taunt a player with it.

 

Most professional sports try to limit the taunting (maybe not the NBA) without squashing celebrations. Not sure why MLB has to be so touchy about it.