Jungmann optioned to Colorado Springs; Goforth recalled; [Latest: Junior Guerra will start Tuesday; post 43]

[Boomer5]

This year is only about fringe guys at the MLB level. No one that they value will be brought up this year for fear of using service time and getting more wins.

[MrTPlush]

This year is only about fringe guys at the MLB level. No one that they value will be brought up this year for fear of using service time and getting more wins.

 

You were spot on until you added in that last statement. It has nothing to do with trying to not win games. All to do with that first part.

[Boomer5]

This year is only about fringe guys at the MLB level. No one that they value will be brought up this year for fear of using service time and getting more wins.

 

You were spot on until you added in that last statement. It has nothing to do with trying to not win games. All to do with that first part.

 

Yeah. No. If you are putting in maginal players and leaving your betters down you are not trying to win games.

[MrTPlush]

This year is only about fringe guys at the MLB level. No one that they value will be brought up this year for fear of using service time and getting more wins.

 

You were spot on until you added in that last statement. It has nothing to do with trying to not win games. All to do with that first part.

 

Yeah. No. If you are putting in maginal players and leaving your betters down you are not trying to win games.

 

They are trying to save service time. Which indirectly means you are going to lose more games. Obviously they are not trying to win games because Arcia/Phillips/Hader are not on this team. However, they are not still down there so we can lose games...they are there to save service time.

 

Lets say we had a crystal ball and we knew we were going to win the same amount of games with or without them. We still aren't bringing them up so wins/losses is not a factor.

[Boomer5]

We all get Acia/Phillips/Hader. Those guys are our next wave of elite to near elite talent where service time matters.

 

We can have this discussion parsing the definition of not trying to win games but somehow that also means they arent trying to lose games all day long but it still feels like you know the answer to 2 plus 2 but don't want to say 4 out loud.

[MrTPlush]

We all get Acia/Phillips/Hader. Those guys are our next wave of elite to near elite talent where service time matters.

 

We can have this discussion parsing the definition of not trying to win games but somehow that also means they arent trying to lose games all day long but it still feels like you know the answer to 2 plus 2 but don't want to say 4 out loud.

 

No because I feel like you are inferring a guy like Reed is still at AAA because Stearns is afraid he might help us win an extra game. Honestly that is the only position we are trotting out awful production where MAYBE we have someone better in the minors that isn't apart of the elite wave. Then again Reed isn't a CFer so maybe that isn't even a good example.

 

So I ask: Where exactly are we intentionally trotting out worse production to lose games. Where do we have better options and who are they?

[Outlander]

They certainly could replace Freeman, Hill and Flores with younger but not elite guys that are probably better. I don't know if they consider Lopez elite but I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a shot as they passed the mark where they control him through 2022.

[clancyphile]

We all get Acia/Phillips/Hader. Those guys are our next wave of elite to near elite talent where service time matters.

 

We can have this discussion parsing the definition of not trying to win games but somehow that also means they arent trying to lose games all day long but it still feels like you know the answer to 2 plus 2 but don't want to say 4 out loud.

 

I don't want to see Arcia in Milwaukee until Opening Day 2017 at the earliest.

[MrTPlush]

We all get Acia/Phillips/Hader. Those guys are our next wave of elite to near elite talent where service time matters.

 

We can have this discussion parsing the definition of not trying to win games but somehow that also means they arent trying to lose games all day long but it still feels like you know the answer to 2 plus 2 but don't want to say 4 out loud.

 

I don't want to see Arcia in Milwaukee until Opening Day 2017 at the earliest.

 

Stearns should be fired if any of Arcia/Hadar/Phillips are here opening day 2017.

[TheCrew07]

How do we know who is elite and who isn't at this time? I might project player A has a higher ceiling than player B, but ceiling doesn't determine whom is ultimately the more productive MLB player unless both reach that potential, which is typically pretty rare. Again there is no good reason to burn a year of service time and hit super 2 status for any current prospect, regardless of status, in the minors at this time.

 

If they want to start bringing up players in July or August to get experience I could care less, it doesn't affect their service time or cost down the road.

 

The only explanation which has been offered is "better baseball" which to me suggests the reasons are personal and on the selfish side. I think if this pitching staff comes together the team can win maybe as many as 72 games. If things go really bad, if the rotation continues to be terrible, then what's the difference who plays where?

[monty57]

They certainly could replace Freeman, Hill and Flores with younger but not elite guys that are probably better. I don't know if they consider Lopez elite but I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a shot as they passed the mark where they control him through 2022.

 

I don't care too much about Freeman. Unless he figures out how to throw a strike, he's pretty useless.

 

Flores has potential, and could be a useful backup OF for the next five seasons. We'd probably lose him if we tried to send him down, so unfortunately he's just going to have to figure things out with limited PAs at the MLB level.

 

Hill is only there in hopes that he can play well enough to be traded at the deadline. At the very least, he's shown himself to be a decent defender at 2B & 3B, and that in itself might be enough to get a playoff team to trade for him. If his BABIP moves up from his career low .203, he could even look good enough to get something better than salary relief in return.

[1992casey]

Lopez may make an appearance before September, but it won't happen till the cut off date.

 

Keep in mind that due to his previous service time, Jorge's "cut off date" would be about 30 days later than the cut off date for a guy who's never been in the majors before.

 

I always hesitate to use the term "cut off date" because it's an abstract concept rather than being etched in stone. Super Two is a mystery until it actually happens a couple of years later. Service time for the purpose of gaining an extra year of control is fairly concrete, but the date for a given guy in a given season will vary from player to player, depending on previous service.

[pacopete4]

 

Stearns should be fired if any of Arcia/Hadar/Phillips are here opening day 2017.

 

 

Umm.. why? If those guys have proven all they need to in the minors, they have no business being held down. I'm really sick of this idea that we have to hold onto these players like they are golden unicorns when it comes to service time. Eventually these players have to come up and play and those three very well could be opening day 2017. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[monty57]

 

Stearns should be fired if any of Arcia/Hadar/Phillips are here opening day 2017.

 

 

Umm.. why? If those guys have proven all they need to in the minors, they have no business being held down. I'm really sick of this idea that we have to hold onto these players like they are golden unicorns when it comes to service time. Eventually these players have to come up and play and those three very well could be opening day 2017. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

We are not likely to be a playoff team in 2017, so waiting a few months to bring them up in order to have another full year of service time in their prime would probably be wise.

 

Having them under control when they are in their prime and hopefully the Brewers are contending is far more valuable than losing that year of service because we didn't wait a couple of months in a losing season.

[3and2Fastball]

-"Fringy" guys like Jungmann.....

 

Really illustrates how important it is to get things right in the Draft, and if you don't, it can negatively effect a franchise for years. The Brewers passed on Jose Fernandez and Sonny Gray to take Jungmann!

[monty57]

-"Fringy" guys like Jungmann.....

 

Really illustrates how important it is to get things right in the Draft, and if you don't, it can negatively effect a franchise for years. The Brewers passed on Jose Fernandez and Sonny Gray to take Jungmann!

 

The Brewers were still in the "signability" an "find guys who can help the team right away" mentality that year.

 

Meaning: they could have signed guys that were more expensive, but they put all of their money into the MLB roster, so they didn't have an extra few million to sign draft picks, and they wanted to win in their "window" so they wanted older college guys with lower ceilings but higher floors, hoping they would get to the majors quickly.

 

I consider Melvin's rebuild to have started once they got out of this mentality and started drafting higher upside guys. I think this was the Kodi/Gatewood/Harrison draft. Of course, the new rules that Melvin lobbied for helped them with the whole "signability" thing.

[3and2Fastball]

-"Fringy" guys like Jungmann.....

 

Really illustrates how important it is to get things right in the Draft, and if you don't, it can negatively effect a franchise for years. The Brewers passed on Jose Fernandez and Sonny Gray to take Jungmann!

 

The Brewers were still in the "signability" an "find guys who can help the team right away" mentality that year.

 

Meaning: they could have signed guys that were more expensive, but they put all of their money into the MLB roster, so they didn't have an extra few million to sign draft picks, and they wanted to win in their "window" so they wanted older college guys with lower ceilings but higher floors, hoping they would get to the majors quickly.

 

I consider Melvin's rebuild to have started once they got out of this mentality and started drafting higher upside guys. I think this was the Kodi/Gatewood/Harrison draft. Of course, the new rules that Melvin lobbied for helped them with the whole "signability" thing.

 

Agreed and understood. The Brewers paid dearly for those 2 playoff appearances. I continue to think that Melvin was an epic disaster of a GM

[MrTPlush]

 

Stearns should be fired if any of Arcia/Hader/Phillips are here opening day 2017.

 

 

Umm.. why? If those guys have proven all they need to in the minors, they have no business being held down. I'm really sick of this idea that we have to hold onto these players like they are golden unicorns when it comes to service time. Eventually these players have to come up and play and those three very well could be opening day 2017. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

See that is the thing they are golden unicorns. We are a small market team and an extra year or them not hitting Super Two status is huge to us. HUGE

 

If they end up being anything close to All Stars you will be really happy that we waited till a few months into a lost season to call them up. Teams in the thick of a pennant race won't put these players on the roster till that deadline passes in most cases. Even big market teams will follow this model. It has immense value to any baseball club.

[MrTPlush]

-"Fringy" guys like Jungmann.....

 

Really illustrates how important it is to get things right in the Draft, and if you don't, it can negatively effect a franchise for years. The Brewers passed on Jose Fernandez and Sonny Gray to take Jungmann!

 

You act like back in 2011 everyone knew Sonny Gray was going to be amazing. ungmann AND Bradley were both more highly rated than Gray by many. At the time Jungmann was hitting 98 and both had great control and Jungmann was considered a top of the rotation potential arm. They both had their stuff go downhill after the draft something we couldn't predict.

 

On the subject of Fernandez I am pretty sure he was a huge sign-ability concern and Miami was likely the only team that could get him away from the South Florida commitment. Not likely he would have signed with us and he would have been a wasted pick.

[FVBrewerFan]

Agreed and understood. The Brewers paid dearly for those 2 playoff appearances. I continue to think that Melvin was an epic disaster of a GM

 

I think that's entirely unfair. Melvin didn't make those decisions in a vacuum. Mark A. wanted to win it all those years, and GM's job is to do what the Owner/s want.

 

Also, Monday morning QB is great, but if they won the WS one of those years I'm guessing everyone would have been more than fine with it. The first go around, they had a legitimate shot for the first time in over a couple decades. Of course you take a swing at it. Second time around, they actually (arguably) had an even better chance. In fact, I will always believe if Marcum's arm didn't wear down they would have been in the WS that season.

[tmwiese55]

The issue has much more been the bad drafting/development than the players we gave up in the trades. The only quality pitcher we gave up was Ordazzi and he's merely OK. Our rotation would still be in the shape it's now and we'd still be in last place. Considering it almost worked for a two year title window I think it was well worth it. If anything maybe they should have gone even harder for it, gotten a better SS/3B, etc.

[3and2Fastball]

You act like back in 2011 everyone knew Sonny Gray was going to be amazing..

 

I'm just a youth & high school coach and in 3 seconds could tell you that Gray had/has way more projectable mechanics than Jungmann.

 

Jungmann starts toward the 3rd base dugout and then throws across his body. His mechanics are a disaster

[TheCrew07]

-"Fringy" guys like Jungmann.....

 

Really illustrates how important it is to get things right in the Draft, and if you don't, it can negatively effect a franchise for years. The Brewers passed on Jose Fernandez and Sonny Gray to take Jungmann!

 

You act like back in 2011 everyone knew Sonny Gray was going to be amazing. ungmann AND Bradley were both more highly rated than Gray by many. At the time Jungmann was hitting 98 and both had great control and Jungmann was considered a top of the rotation potential arm. They both had their stuff go downhill after the draft something we couldn't predict.

 

On the subject of Fernandez I am pretty sure he was a huge sign-ability concern and Miami was likely the only team that could get him away from the South Florida commitment. Not likely he would have signed with us and he would have been a wasted pick.

 

I don't want to rehash Jungmann for the 1000th time, but I never saw him hit 98, in fact I never saw him go 95+. He was working mostly upper 80s low 90s with a 2 seam FB that was around the plate but wasn't located well, and a CB that every hitter who swung at got a piece of and I wasn't impressed with. His 4 seam FB was 94-95 on the ESPN gun, but ESPN's gun at the time was notoriously fast a MPH. His pre-draft scouting report was nothing like what he did in the post season that year, nor does it match any of his professional scouting reports. It's not like he suddenly forgot how to pitch, he was just never very good from a pro standpoint, he was basically the same pitcher as a college junior that he was a freshman. Even last year he didn't throw strikes, hitters were constantly just chasing his stuff out of the zone for whatever reason.

 

No one drafted Jose Fernandez because he was very clear before the draft that he would only sign with a FL team, Colby has mentioned that numerous times over the last handful of years.

[TheCrew07]

You act like back in 2011 everyone knew Sonny Gray was going to be amazing..

 

I'm just a youth & high school coach and in 3 seconds could tell you that Gray had/has way more projectable mechanics than Jungmann.

 

Jungmann starts toward the 3rd base dugout and then throws across his body. His mechanics are a disaster

 

He didn't throw like that in college, he was a short strider and mostly all upper body.

[MrTPlush]

You act like back in 2011 everyone knew Sonny Gray was going to be amazing..

 

I'm just a youth & high school coach and in 3 seconds could tell you that Gray had/has way more projectable mechanics than Jungmann.

 

Jungmann starts toward the 3rd base dugout and then throws across his body. His mechanics are a disaster

 

Wow sounds like you should get a good promotion here shortly. I will take the word of what the scouts were saying. If it was that simple he wouldn't have been a Top 10 prospect in the draft.

 

And in reply to Jungmann hitting 98 he wasn't consistently hitting 98. He worked in the 95 range back then though. Now I'm happy if he hits 92 for one inning.