Carlos Gomez on block?

[logan82]

Gomez' complete collapse with Houston has been remarkable, there's no way I believe anyone could have predicted THIS.

 

I don't know if he's done, or if he's just made things worse for himself by pressing, which I could absolutely imagine with Carlos. I can't see Houston cutting him right now, they need him to perform, and I think they'll give him as much leash as they possibly can.

 

I just can't see the Brewers bringing him back here, but it would make for one heck of a story.

Predicted it no, but it was a strong possibility. Much of his game was built on speed. He isn't going to be as bad as he is right now but he isn't going to be as good as he was in 2013-2014. 2012 numbers is what I would expect from here out. His philosophy at the plate seems to be swing hard in case you hit it. He still has a lot of value as a league average hitter and better than average defense in CF. I would expect his defense to decline to average sometime this year or next.

[pacopete4]

Once your legs go, it is over. To steal a cheese movie quote, "the legs feed the wolf." In the case of Gomez, that couldn't be more truthful.

[jerichoholicninja]

Carlos only had two seasons (out of 8+) where his OPS+ was much more than average. Perhaps this is the real Carlos and those two seasons were outliers. Either way, thank god Doug finally moved someone at their peak of value or else this franchise would screwed.

[MrTPlush]

Perhaps this is the real Carlos and those two seasons were outliers.

 

Or perhaps he was a late bloomer and had a style of game that declines pretty quick with injuries and/or past the age of 30?

 

Carlos Gomez had the talent and he turned into what everyone thought he could be when he was a prospect. There was nothing fluky about what he did.

[pacopete4]

I never understand trying to knock down Gomez and his game. Yes he has some horrible base running at times but he also created a lot in that aspect as well. In terms of becoming the player people thought he could, what an amazing story and we got to see it first hand as Brewers fans. Not only that but he's a guy that actually wants to be in Milwaukee. That doesn't happen all too often.

 

 

Also I can't imagine what it would be like to be in a new country and not know how to even order a meal at McDonalds. Talk about loneliness to some extent. No wonder it takes some of these guys longer to be good at baseball when all this other stuff is going on as well.

[Boomer5]

Trade them Flores and Broxton. Actually, I always liked Carlos but i have no idea why the Brewers would want him for 5 more months in a tan....rebuilding season.

[monty57]

I figured Carlos' problem could be that he's just swinging wildly at pitches off the plate, but that's not the case. He's actually swinging at less pitches out of the zone (36% this year vs 37.6% career) and more pitches in the zone (81.6% this year vs 73.8% career). He just isn't making contact (51% O-contact vs 60% career, 78.2% Z-contact vs 85.1% career), and his K% has jumped to 27.3% vs a career 22.6%. All numbers courtesy of Fangraphs.

 

This is only a tiny sample of 20 games and 77 PA, but it's hard to hit well when you can't make contact.

 

As to this being speed/injury related, Fangraphs still has him at 1.9 def WAR. Hard to believe that a CF could add that much defensive value if he had slowed to the point that it affects his offense. My uneducated guess would be that he's trying to hit the ball 500 ft with every swing.

[scuttlebutts]

His baserunning, alone, was reason to get rid of Him. I cannot say that for any other player in the history of the organization. It was awful throughout.... no change or learning curve. Just plain miserable to watch...... But man, he was fast.

I agree 100 percent!

[adambr2]

Talk about a victim of bad timing. A year ago, he'd have been worth 20-25M a year on the FA market easily. The way he's headed, he won't even get a qualifying offer this fall.

[MrTPlush]

Talk about a victim of bad timing. A year ago, he'd have been worth 20-25M a year on the FA market easily. The way he's headed, he won't even get a qualifying offer this fall.

 

Thanks a lot Scott Boras!!!

[adambr2]

I'd take Gomez back in a second this year if we're talking about for basically nothing, but I can't imagine the Astros would go for that no matter how much they want to get rid of him.

 

I can't think of any example where a team gave up substantial prospects at the deadline for a major player and said player ended up being so bad that he was given back for basically nothing within a year. I think that would be an incredibly tough pill to swallow for the Astros FO and their fans.

[Montezuma]

Did not shed a single tear when he was traded... The Brewers will reap huge rewards trading away an undisciplined player.

[QuevedosTongue]

Did not shed a single tear when he was traded... The Brewers will reap huge rewards trading away an undisciplined player.

 

What does this mean? I assume you're saying that they're better off without Gomez, but how? What does not having Gomez on the team do that was hindered by having him there?

 

I'm serious about these questions. He played 5+ seasons in Milwaukee and was worth 16 WARP, but people seem to think the Brewers are so much better off without him. It's easy to look at it now and say it was good to get rid of him, but what if he was playing like 2014 Gomez? Would people still feel this way?

[adambr2]

Did not shed a single tear when he was traded... The Brewers will reap huge rewards trading away an undisciplined player.

 

What does this mean? I assume you're saying that they're better off without Gomez, but how? What does not having Gomez on the team do that was hindered by having him there?

 

I'm serious about these questions. He played 5+ seasons in Milwaukee and was worth 16 WARP, but people seem to think the Brewers are so much better off without him. It's easy to look at it now and say it was good to get rid of him, but what if he was playing like 2014 Gomez? Would people still feel this way?

 

Yeah, the Gomez hate from Brewer fans makes zero sense to me. The guy was far, far better for us than any team he's played for in his career. He earned his salary here many times over and was our best player easily in 2013 and 2014 and combined for over 13 WAR in those 2 seasons!

 

Did he make an above average amount of baserunning errors and mental mistakes, yes, did he make up for it in many other ways and were we a much better team with him, absolutely.

[pacopete4]

Did not shed a single tear when he was traded... The Brewers will reap huge rewards trading away an undisciplined player.

 

What does this mean? I assume you're saying that they're better off without Gomez, but how? What does not having Gomez on the team do that was hindered by having him there?

 

I'm serious about these questions. He played 5+ seasons in Milwaukee and was worth 16 WARP, but people seem to think the Brewers are so much better off without him. It's easy to look at it now and say it was good to get rid of him, but what if he was playing like 2014 Gomez? Would people still feel this way?

 

Player A: .275/.383/.420/.803

Player B: .182/.238/.248/.486

Player C: .245/.360/.296/.756

 

One of these is Gomez. The other two make up 2/3's of our outfield. I think we are doing okay. Yes Gomez was a great player for us during his time but it is okay that we moved on and it looks to be just in time.

[adambr2]

I don't think anyone is denying that Gomez has been horrible this year. That's not a reason for us to dislike him, that's a reason for Astros fans. He was great for us.

 

And just because he's been horrible for them this year doesn't mean we'd be better off without him. We still lack a true CF and I would expect better numbers here than what he's putting up right now.

[MrTPlush]

Carlos Gomez arguably had the second most productive season in franchise history back in 2013.

 

Not only that, but for every knucklehead mistake he probably had 3+ amazing plays. Complaining over his base running mistakes makes no sense because even with the bad plays his value on the bases probably doubled anyone else on the roster.

[pacopete4]

I don't think anyone is denying that Gomez has been horrible this year. That's not a reason for us to dislike him, that's a reason for Astros fans. He was great for us.

 

And just because he's been horrible for them this year doesn't mean we'd be better off without him. We still lack a true CF and I would expect better numbers here than what he's putting up right now.

 

 

Carlos Gomez has put up a dWar of .4, .3, .5 and this year a .1 in the last four seasons. Kirk Nieuwenhuis current sits at .8. I would say we are doing okay out in CF. It's just that Kirk isn't a name player and hasn't had a great track record until this season. Nothing wrong with the production there.

 

 

And yes, Gomez was a great player for TWO season with us. At the age of 27 & 28. The rest of his career, meh. It was time to move on and talk about perfect timing indeed. No need to bash him though. He is a good guy that loves Milwaukee.

[Warning Track Power]

Yeah, the Gomez hate from Brewer fans makes zero sense to me. The guy was far, far better for us than any team he's played for in his career. He earned his salary here many times over and was our best player easily in 2013 and 2014 and combined for over 13 WAR in those 2 seasons!

 

Did he make an above average amount of baserunning errors and mental mistakes, yes, did he make up for it in many other ways and were we a much better team with him, absolutely.

I think most of the fans here on this site, or educated Brewer fans, while appreciating the all out hustle, tired of the type of player the Brewers seemed to be employing prior to 2016 (i.e. lack of general baseball awareness/mental mistakes and plate discipline). While I love Gomez and his enthusiasm, he was the personification of that era of Brewer baseball and, as such, became the lightning rod for the criticism as he was the largest personality.

[fondybrewfan]

Villar is basically Gomez on the baseplates. Every team always has one regardless of whatever make-up the fans think the team has. Gomez just happened to stand out more for the base running issues because of his personality and skill level.

[logan82]

Did not shed a single tear when he was traded... The Brewers will reap huge rewards trading away an undisciplined player.

 

What does this mean? I assume you're saying that they're better off without Gomez, but how? What does not having Gomez on the team do that was hindered by having him there?

 

I'm serious about these questions. He played 5+ seasons in Milwaukee and was worth 16 WARP, but people seem to think the Brewers are so much better off without him. It's easy to look at it now and say it was good to get rid of him, but what if he was playing like 2014 Gomez? Would people still feel this way?

The Brewers are better off without Gomez. We got a good haul in the trade. Even if Gomez was the 6 WAR Gomez of a few years back we would still be better off. We would probably be better off without Lucroy as well. We were not going to compete this year or next while Gomez and Lucroy would have been with us.

[adambr2]

I think when most of us were saying we aren't better off without Gomez, we're saying in a vacuum without consideration to our return or the fact that we're rebuilding.

 

Now obviously if he continues to OPS .500, every team is better off without him, but I don't believe he's just suddenly that bad of a player.

[tmwiese55]

Villar is basically Gomez on the baseplates. Every team always has one regardless of whatever make-up the fans think the team has. Gomez just happened to stand out more for the base running issues because of his personality and skill level.

 

I know Villar has been thrown out a few times trying to stretch things and I haven't "seen" them all. But of the few I have they have all been bang bang plays that he was very close to making, nothing wrong with that imo. Gomez was often getting thrown out by a 1/3 of the basebath in situations that didn't require any need to push it. Several times trying to steal 3rd with 2 outs and Braun at the plate. Just stupid, almost any hit from Braun (really anyone if you're gomez) and you're scoring anyway. The argument that his positives outweigh the negatives is true, but doesn't mean the criticism isn't warranted and an area he should have improved on as he grew up. All players should be looking to improve on their weaknesses, and that was his weakness.

[jerichoholicninja]

Villar is basically Gomez on the baseplates. Every team always has one regardless of whatever make-up the fans think the team has. Gomez just happened to stand out more for the base running issues because of his personality and skill level.

 

I know Villar has been thrown out a few times trying to stretch things and I haven't "seen" them all. But of the few I have they have all been bang bang plays that he was very close to making, nothing wrong with that imo. Gomez was often getting thrown out by a 1/3 of the basebath in situations that didn't require any need to push it. Several times trying to steal 3rd with 2 outs and Braun at the plate. Just stupid, almost any hit from Braun (really anyone if you're gomez) and you're scoring anyway. The argument that his positives outweigh the negatives is true, but doesn't mean the criticism isn't warranted and an area he should have improved on as he grew up. All players should be looking to improve on their weaknesses, and that was his weakness.

 

I've seen Villar get thrown out a couple times too. A couple times too many if you ask me but his are the result of being aggressive. Many of Gomez's outs were the result of stupidity. He seemed to think he could outrun any throw.

[TheCrew07]

I can see where many people were attracted to Gomez' personality, as I've said many times he just wasn't my kind of player as generally I'm not into "look at me" types. Packer fans will remember Nick Barnett and it drove me nuts every time he did his samurai deal after making a tackle 6 yards downfield. Hooray for giving them 2nd and 4?

 

I'm not into players who continually make mental mistakes either, and I'm not talking about the rare occasional mistake every professional player will make, I'm talking about the simple fundamental stuff that we were all taught in little league about which base to throw to, when to take the extra base, and so on.

 

I wouldn't take Gomez back under literally any circumstance since he's at the point his physical skills will start declining, he's expensive, and there's no reasonable expectation of him remaining healthy given his play style. Way too often in these veteran discussions the health aspect is glossed over, but that's maybe the single most important factor given the cost.