Goose Gossage is mad at everything

[FVBrewerFan]

If you argue that retaliation for batflips or whatever is appropriate, that bothers me. We'd all like for everyone to behave in accordance with our own views of the world. But trying to make that happen is generally a pretty bad way to run any kind of organization, whether it's a sports league or a society. Celebrating may seem obnoxious to a lot of people. Aggressively showing up another player seems obnoxious even to me. We can talk and argue about that stuff forever, and it can be an interesting discussion. But throwing at another player is dangerous; it crosses a line.

 

A player can avoid that. If he's up against certain teams or pitchers, they know who will likely throw at them if they do any show-boating. So it works both ways. Sure, go ahead and stare down a pitcher after you hit a HR. But then accept the consequences.

 

That's baseball to me, for better or worse. I don't want to sanitize the game and make everyone play nice. We seem to want the players to police this stuff themselves, but then want to dictate how they police it.

[tmwiese55]

There's so much hypocrisy in all this that it makes it all nonsense to me. Cam Newton is acocky, showboater. Baseball player celebrating in anyway is wrong. But Steph Curry is the feel good story of sports.

 

For me, I put the line at taunting vs celebrating. If you're just celebrating what you did amongst yourself or your team then no big deal. If you're taunting the other team or player then it's not. And I have that same take for all sports, baseball is no different. For example in baseball, Ryan Braun's big HR celebrations over the years are exactly what should be OK. Even Harper or Pujols staring at home runs is perfectly ok, it's their fault if it hits the wall and they get a single instead of a double. Bat flips are pushing the envelope but still OK to me, you're not staring down the pitcher or anything. Now, hit a HR then throw the bat look at or even point at the pitcher and bark at him, not acceptable. Strike a guy out, then walk his direction yelling at him like chris Carpenter did, not acceptable. Fist pump and yell at no one on the mound after a strikeout, fine.

[gregmag]

If you argue that retaliation for batflips or whatever is appropriate, that bothers me. We'd all like for everyone to behave in accordance with our own views of the world. But trying to make that happen is generally a pretty bad way to run any kind of organization, whether it's a sports league or a society. Celebrating may seem obnoxious to a lot of people. Aggressively showing up another player seems obnoxious even to me. We can talk and argue about that stuff forever, and it can be an interesting discussion. But throwing at another player is dangerous; it crosses a line.

 

A player can avoid that. If he's up against certain teams or pitchers, they know who will likely throw at them if they do any show-boating. So it works both ways. Sure, go ahead and stare down a pitcher after you hit a HR. But then accept the consequences.

 

That's baseball to me, for better or worse. I don't want to sanitize the game and make everyone play nice. We seem to want the players to police this stuff themselves, but then want to dictate how they police it.

Well, I don't want to sanitize behavior, and I don't expect the players to police anything. I do want the Commissioner's Office and/or the league offices to police acts of violence. That seems like a pretty bright line.

[tmwiese55]

Haha right, watching a HR is evil and disrespecting the other player and the game. But throwing a deadly object at someone's head is not disrespectful to that person or the game. So logical.

[Patrick425]

Even though I'm not a huge fan of the bat flip thing, I will say that as a kid, I was fairly mesmerized by the guy who I consider the inventor of the modern bat flip, Reggie Jackson. Since he was on the hated Yankees it was a love-hate type feeling, but we sure liked to imitate him on the playground when we were playing baseball. He was kind of like the Darth Vader of baseball...larger than life, played for the Evil Empire, but he sure sold tickets wherever he played. Ironic that he played with Gossage...I wonder what Gossage would say about Jackson's bat flips if he were asked about them now. His bat flips were pretty prolific.

 

Also, gotta admit, loved John McEnroe. He made tennis watchable and he knew that his antics got inside his opponents heads.

 

Edit: This is Reggie's first game back to Yankee Stadium after leaving the Yankees, but this bat flip is classic Reggie:

 

[FVBrewerFan]

Haha right, watching a HR is evil and disrespecting the other player and the game. But throwing a deadly object at someone's head is not disrespectful to that person or the game. So logical.

 

Strawman argument alert. Name anyone who thinks throwing at someone's head is ever acceptable. Hitting someone in the butt or thigh is hardly violence, anymore than a hard foul in the NBA is violence. Or a hard slide in baseball for that matter.

[FVBrewerFan]

Also, gotta admit, loved John McEnroe. He made tennis watchable and he knew that his antics got inside his opponents heads.

 

Yea, I'm a hypocrite on this stuff. I never watched tennis before or since those years. Tiger got a lot of crap for showing emotion, because you just don't do that on the tour. But I loved watching him play.

 

So, to a large extent that's how I feel about MLB. Every player and situation is different, some of it bothers me, some of it doesn't. All players seem to have a "thing" after a double now where they have some sort of sign they make to their dugout. Doesn't bother me. Yadier Molina does anything at all? Bothers me.

[danzig6767]

If you argue that retaliation for batflips or whatever is appropriate, that bothers me. We'd all like for everyone to behave in accordance with our own views of the world. But trying to make that happen is generally a pretty bad way to run any kind of organization, whether it's a sports league or a society. Celebrating may seem obnoxious to a lot of people. Aggressively showing up another player seems obnoxious even to me. We can talk and argue about that stuff forever, and it can be an interesting discussion. But throwing at another player is dangerous; it crosses a line.

A player can avoid that. If he's up against certain teams or pitchers, they know who will likely throw at them if they do any show-boating. So it works both ways. Sure, go ahead and stare down a pitcher after you hit a HR. But then accept the consequences.

 

That's baseball to me, for better or worse. I don't want to sanitize the game and make everyone play nice. We seem to want the players to police this stuff themselves, but then want to dictate how they police it.

I don't agree on the bolded part. Often it's completely random on why one batter gets thrown at vs a different batter doing something similar, what players do or don't get thrown at, and depending on if a certain pitcher or manager has their panties bunched up that given day, so they'll be more inclined to feel slighted over whatever.

 

Baseball is a game, not MMA fighting. I don't see how anyone can justify intentionally having a pitcher throw a baseball at a batter over a petty emotional slight when the potential is always there that the pitch could not only injure the batter, it could hit the batter in the face or head. Then if worst case you have that batter writhing in pain on the ground with a shattered face or concussion, what is the pitcher going to say in response? Well, he deserved that shattered face since he watched his previous home run for four-five seconds instead of what i deemed acceptable of only two or three seconds.

 

There is a reason most sports leagues try to take "policing of the game" out of the hands of it's players as much as possible, particularly when it comes to intentional actions which could lead to injuries, including a serious injury. Hockey being the most obvious exception, and the older i get, the more silly the fighting and brawls come across. It's one reason among others why i now only watch playoff hockey.

[rickh150]

The line between celebration and flaunting/disrespect is thin.

Bat flip.... well, ok.

Bat flip and glare towards pitcher..... Not

 

Yelling "Yeah" and fist pumping to no one in general ..... Again, alright.

Yelling same toward guy just scored on..... Different.

 

Being a 38 year old coach, parent, and teacher....... This used to be obvious to all. Now, disrespect in the name of FUN is fine in many households of brash and bratty kids (unless it happens to them, of course). Trash talk, bad language, huge egos aren't being disciplined/sat/talked to (just ignored....parents want to be friends with kids, coaches want to be "cool" and not be the heavy) at any where close to the rate of even 20 years ago....

 

Before you disagree, go to a youth tournament of any kind. Stay hour after hour. Watch.

That's on the parents and coaches of the kids, not pro athletes. I have a kid and have coached Little League, never did i think it was that hard to get kids to follow rules placed for them. Set guidelines and the consequences if those demands aren't followed. Gotta stick to those guidelines and the consequences though because most kids will very quickly pick up on authority figures who set rules, but often fail to follow up on the consequences aspect.

 

There are all kinds of things in life which adults are able to do, but kids aren't. It's up to parents and authority figures to set those guidelines, be it sports or a wide variety of other activities. Parents who can't control their kids and instead blame societal influences for why their kid or kids behave like brats are simply weak parents. Until maybe a child reaches his/her late teens, a parent/parents, they hold all of the power in the relationship. Simply use it and a kid will behave.

 

 

Are you saying that pro athletes and youth athletes have separate codes of conduct?

You are right in saying that there are several things adults can do, but kids can't. Yet, funny thing......those things are usually what get adults into trouble or somehow.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yes, I'm old, just turned 50 this week. So maybe it is age and I just grew up in a different time period. I'm not totally against celebrating. The Bautista bat flip was in a huge game at a huge moment, so not that up-in-arms about that. However, I do agree with the Lombardi philosophy of "act like you've been there before". I just think professionals should act like professionals. Clearly I'm in the minority on this and the current generation is more appreciative of the grandstanding.

I'm right there with you, having turned 50 myself this year... I think it is a generational thing for sure.

It is somewhat of a generational issue, but i'm 45 and have zero issues with celebrations today. Same for friends my age who i attend games with. I also think this nonsense of retaliating over petty slights by throwing rock hard baseballs 90 plus mph at hitters which Gossage holds onto as a badge of honor is something i'd come down hard on if i was commissioner. A player could potentially suffer a serious injury from that and all over a petty slight.

 

Passan on Yahoo summed up my thoughts on Gossage perfectly

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-angry-old-man-goose-gossage-is-wrong-about-baseball-s-past--present-and-future-052208311.html

 

"Goose Gossage, a giant bag of gas that somehow figured out how to grow a mustache, f-bombed his way through the landscape of modern baseball Thursday. In an interview with ESPN, he managed to deride the single best moment of the 2015 season, tie the actions of one man to the shame of an entire ethnicity, advocate for concussions, praise pitches intended to injure opponents, yearn for the days that left pitchers' arms in shambles because of overuse and disparage people far smarter than he'll ever be. It was a glorious festival of buffoonery"

I have never been a fan of Passan. But this is glorious.

[1992casey]

I can't figure out how to quote multiple posts

 

For the posts you'd like to quote, open the Quote links in new tabs. Then copy and paste the material you’d like to use into the reply box that you plan on using for composing and posting.

 

For me, I put the line at taunting vs celebrating.

 

I think that's a good distinction that's stated in very simple terms. Of course, in practicality, the line is fuzzier than the words. The distinction between taunting and celebrating would differ from one person from the next, and that’s a likely the root cause of disagreement on celebrations.

 

We’ve talked about keeping celebrations, i.e. expressions of joy, in proportion to the situation at hand. A home run when a team is up by five runs in the fifth inning is likely worth handshakes and restrained high fives. A walkoff is worthy of a bigger fuss. Also, celebrating can generally be ramped up in bigger games.

 

We haven’t talked about who starts a celebration. I think there’s a lot more leeway when teammates of the “hero of the moment” initiate congratulatory celebration. But the slope starts to get slippery when the “hero of the moment” initiates celebration on his own. That starts to get self-congratulatory and generally needs to be more restrained. I see a fist pump after a big strikeout or an exuberant trot around the bases after a big home run as fine, though. They're expressing joy more than being self-congratulatory.

[tmwiese55]

I get that it's hard to define and each person's definition might be different. But i think all would agree that it makes no sense to throw deadly objects at people's head over a disagreement in that definition. Yell back at them, talk trash to the media after the game, whatever, no reason to have these beanball wars over such dumb stuff

[DuWayne Steurer]

I get that it's hard to define and each person's definition might be different. But i think all would agree that it makes no sense to throw deadly objects at people's head over a disagreement in that definition. Yell back at them, talk trash to the media after the game, whatever, no reason to have these beanball wars over such dumb stuff

 

 

Feelings hurt = injure someone = that's ok.

[danzig6767]

Are you saying that pro athletes and youth athletes have separate codes of conduct?

You are right in saying that there are several things adults can do, but kids can't. Yet, funny thing......those things are usually what get adults into trouble or somehow.

Of course there can be.

 

If my kid were to say, how come X person can do this or that, but i can't, my answer would be simple. Because i said so, that's why. End of story. Not difficult to do.

 

Same if i'm coaching a Little League or youth basketball team. If a player or players on the team wants to behave in a manner which i personally don't find proper and he says, well X pro player does it, i'd tell him i don't care, you have to play under rules i've set or you don't get to keep playing.

 

FWIW, when i coached Little League, i never had a problem getting kids to listen and respect rules i set for conduct. The vast majority of kids want to listen and just play. The bigger problem overall was a handful of parents in the league who would complain that their kid wasn't being used properly or yelling at umpires. Thankfully the league would stand behind the umpires and gave a parent/parents one warning for getting to belligerent and if there was a second incident, their child was kicked out of the league.

 

The ridiculous behavior to often by parents today at various youth sporting events in my opinion is a far bigger problem than any behavioral issues with the actual kids, and of the kids who are brats, most belong to those same boorish parents.

[DuWayne Steurer]

In what is sure to stun most Brewer fans, the self proclaimed arbiter of all unwritten rules, Brian McCann says celebrating and bat flips are "where the game is at" and the game is changing and people need to change with the game.

 

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2016/03/yankees_cc_sabathia_brian_mccann_bat_flip_showboat.html

[QuevedosTongue]

In what is sure to stun most Brewer fans, the self proclaimed arbiter of all unwritten rules, Brian McCann says celebrating and bat flips are "where the game is at" and the game is changing and people need to change with the game.

 

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2016/03/yankees_cc_sabathia_brian_mccann_bat_flip_showboat.html

 

That is a surpise. I figured he'd take the Wainwright stance.

[stalton]

In what is sure to stun most Brewer fans, the self proclaimed arbiter of all unwritten rules, Brian McCann says celebrating and bat flips are "where the game is at" and the game is changing and people need to change with the game.

 

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2016/03/yankees_cc_sabathia_brian_mccann_bat_flip_showboat.html

 

That is a surpise. I figured he'd take the Wainwright stance.

 

Does McCann have kids?

[Thurston Fluff]

Just read a couple of comments from Rob Manfred about unwritten rules and celebrations.

 

I think to the extent that you believe, and I actually do, that Bryce Harper is a spokesman for this generation, I suspect that you will see more exuberance from our players on the field.

 

I think it's a good thing. I think that to the extent that you're trying to market to a younger audience, our younger players taking control of the definition of those unwritten rules is a lot better than some guy who's 67 years saying I did it that way and you ought do it the same way.

 

He also addressed Goose Gossage's comments in particular.

 

Goose and his peers developed a set of unwritten understandings about what was acceptable on the field when he played the game, and I think the generation of players that are on the field today are going to do the same thing. I think that it may not be exactly the same as it was when Goose played, and you know, from my perspective that's good thing.

 

He seems like a very forward thinking guy. A good quality to have for a commissioner IMHO. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2634642-mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-comments-on-celebrations-and-unwritten-rules

[DuWayne Steurer]

Just read a couple of comments from Rob Manfred about unwritten rules and celebrations.

 

I think to the extent that you believe, and I actually do, that Bryce Harper is a spokesman for this generation, I suspect that you will see more exuberance from our players on the field.

 

I think it's a good thing. I think that to the extent that you're trying to market to a younger audience, our younger players taking control of the definition of those unwritten rules is a lot better than some guy who's 67 years saying I did it that way and you ought do it the same way.

 

He also addressed Goose Gossage's comments in particular.

 

Goose and his peers developed a set of unwritten understandings about what was acceptable on the field when he played the game, and I think the generation of players that are on the field today are going to do the same thing. I think that it may not be exactly the same as it was when Goose played, and you know, from my perspective that's good thing.

 

He seems like a very forward thinking guy. A good quality to have for a commissioner IMHO. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2634642-mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-comments-on-celebrations-and-unwritten-rules

 

 

Gossage's mustache must be bristling right now.

[dlk9s]

I would like to hear what Goose has to say about the changes to the $20 bill.

[StearnsFTW]

I would like to hear what Goose has to say about the changes to the $20 bill.