Braun to move to LF

[Boomer5]

Except Michael Reed bats righty & Flores bats lefty which (assuming all else is more or less equal) gives Flores an edge with two righty batters atop the current corner outfield depth chart.

 

[sarcasm]Awesome. When do WS Tix go on sale? I want to make sure I have mine![/sarcasm]

 

All kidding aside, few fanbases would even care about a Flores and we are one of them that shouldnt either. Braun is locked in at LF, Santana in RF. CF is up for grabs but I wouldnt imagine Flores profiles as an everyday CF under even the most optimistic of fans. Therefore he is at best a 4th OF who is also hurt.

You seem fond of making very strong declarations about young players' value -- the pitchers in the Lind trade, now Flores -- without offering much to back up your arguments. I'm not saying your bottom line judgments are wrong, but you aren't offering much reason to think they're right, and the range of possible outcomes for young players with some indications of talent tends to be pretty broad. Whether a guy like Flores gets a real shot probably depends on whether either Braun or Santana misses some time with injuries, which seems fairly likely to happen.

 

The FO is collecting young players with upside (which is what makes them worth trying) and limits or tarnish (which is what makes them available). Some of those guys, like Flores, are at the point where they'll have to put up or shut up at the MLB level this year or next. For me, that's fun. We weren't going to the World Series with Gomez, Davis, Fiers, etc., and we sure aren't going this year without them. I'm looking forward to seeing how these young guys pan out.

 

He is a C level prospect who will be on a major league roster but he wont be a difference maker. Im curious of the word upside that is being used. What upside? Walks? Yes his OBA should be good. But he has little pop, little speed and can really only be a corner OF. He isn't going to be a 1B as he is 5'10". He is just a guy and honestly almost the last word I would use with Flores is upside.

 

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2015/5/29/8690223/yankees-promote-prospect-ramon-flores-to-major-leagues

 

As for the 3 Seattle guys, I have read the same reports you have. That is all we have to go on, so I guess Id wonder where the optimism comes from? Even if they were elite talents, which they are not, the likelyhood of ANY rookie league pitcher making it to the majors is very very low. Throw in that their only skill is the strike zone, and none posses any plus plus pitches and Im not sure where any optimism would come from unless its just the new car smell where any trade pick up is valued more highly that they normally would. My issue with them isnt that I dont want 3 more pitchers in our system, its that one year of Lind is worth more than 3 guys who dont project as big leaguers by any reasonable analysis.

 

Had we picked up 3 Trey Supaks Id be in your upside camp. Supak is a guy with no success so far but does posses plus skills, and does project to be a back end MLB starter.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I don't know that anyone expects Flores to be an all-star, but he looks like he's ready to be a pretty good 4th OF this year, and he's still only 23. Obviously his best skill is getting on base, which it seems the new Brewers value a lot more than was previously the case. He hasn't shown a ton of power, but his ISO in AAA was better than at lower levels. In two partial seasons of AAA his ISO is 167, which just for the sake of comparison is better than Prince Fielder managed last year.

 

I'm not sure why you assert that he can't be a first baseman, as he's played first a bit in the minors (50 games out of 700ish). He's doesn't profile as a starter at first base, but as a lefty bat he's an ideal backup and complement to our RH starters at LF, RF, and 1b. Santana was much, much better against LHP in his small sample last year, so it might be wise to give him in particular some breaks against RHP. Add the twenty or so games Braun will be dinged up and the lack of clarity in CF, and I would guess that there's no shortage of PA for Flores if he's healthy. He is in the same boat as Reed in many ways, profiling as a good on base guy who would be stretched as a regular in CF but may not have the power for a corner. A few guys like that will add enough with the bat to become starters, like our old friend Michael Brantley. (Flores has better AAA numbers than Brantley, for whatever it's worth.)

[Boomer5]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

[DuWayne Steurer]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/garvest01.shtml

[tmwiese55]

Prince was 5'10 at most, and was predictably bad at defense. But he did play first for years. A guy like this doesn't have the bat for it as a starter. But as a bench player it helps him find more PA and just overall flexibility to the roster.

[Baldkin]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

 

The Brewers just had a 5'9" guy play there for 7 years.

[superfly]

One thing to keep in mind. Santana is not an established major league hitter and he's going to have to hold off Flores who's primarily a LF and brings different offensive skills (better contact, lesser power) to the table and is a lefty bat on a team lacking them. Whether he ultimately beats out Santana remains to be seen, but I doubt anything is completely set in stone until Santana proves he can produce over a bigger sample.

 

Flores is nothing of value. No need to accomodate him. At best he is just a guy. I have no idea why any team would ever trade for him let alone try and find a place in the starting lineup.

 

Since two teams traded for him within a few months, I suspect that GM's see him as more than "just a guy".

 

I would view him the opposite...he's an expendable piece just as light hitting Luis Sardinas was. If he was that great GMs would go out of their way to not include him in trades.

 

I have no qualms with Flores, and think he could end up being a useful piece. That's what he is though, a piece. Domingo Santana has the potential to be a 20 million dollar a year OF if he puts everything together like he has in the minors.

[Boomer5]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

 

The Brewers just had a 5'9" guy play there for 7 years.

 

When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

[reillymcshane]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

Did I hear my name?

 

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/mlb/players/full/6218.png&w=350&h=254

[gregmag]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

 

The Brewers just had a 5'9" guy play there for 7 years.

 

When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

So until someone has excelled in MLB, we're supposed to categorically take your word that he sucks? That's not a predictive judgment; it's just a bias.

[And That]

When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

I thought your argument was that he was too short to play 1B, which was proven to be incorrect. So your argument actually is that players who are short should not play first base unless they can hit 50 HRs (once)?

 

Someone else already mentioned this, but Flores' career ISO in AAA is 167, which is better than what Prince managed last year (158).

 

No one is saying that Flores has any sort of chance to be as productive as Fielder in his prime, but to write Flores off because he's 5'10 is strange.

[MrTPlush]

Prince was 5'10 at most, and was predictably bad at defense. But he did play first for years. A guy like this doesn't have the bat for it as a starter. But as a bench player it helps him find more PA and just overall flexibility to the roster.

 

Height isn't the big issue...it is the fact a guy like Prince Fielder flirts with 300 pounds. His range was bad...really bad.

 

If Flores could have nice range and pick them out of the dirt he would be fine at 1st defensively.

[MKE81]

One thing to keep in mind. Santana is not an established major league hitter and he's going to have to hold off Flores who's primarily a LF and brings different offensive skills (better contact, lesser power) to the table and is a lefty bat on a team lacking them. Whether he ultimately beats out Santana remains to be seen, but I doubt anything is completely set in stone until Santana proves he can produce over a bigger sample.

 

Santana has to hold off Flores? Flores himself isn't an established MLB hitter. Santana was a Top 75 prospect heading into last year then had a monster AAA - again. He would have been higher this year if he was eligible. He has a very strong arm, a major advantage over Flores. Both can cover ground in CF but neither profile there so covering space isn't an issue for either. Flores doesn't have one defensive advantage over Santana. Flores also doesn't have much offensive advantage over Santana either - lefty, takes more walks, has better contact numbers, steals more bases. Which sounds really good but in AA/AAA Santana still had a higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS and has 25-30HR potential vs 8-10HR potential (Flores). Santana has a much higher ceiling than Flores; it's not even a debate. Part of the reason Davis was traded was to create a full time spot for Santana, not a full time spot for Flores (although in creating the spot for Santana it created a backup spot for Flores).

 

I find it hilarious that you cherry pick ONE MONTH of Flores' numbers last year to prove your point. In the meantime you ride Khris Davis' jock - a guy who's had a non-impressive slash line for all of 2014 and all of 2015 heading into his monster Sept last year and only discuss HR when speaking about him as if we should all ignore every other facet of his game.

 

Having said that, Flores is a solid player - a valuable 4th OF/spot starter. He can definitely contribute to a team and he should absolutely make this team out of spring now that he's healthy. But he's not starting over Braun or Santana or whoever ends up in CF (most likely Liriano). And Flores won't be a backup 1b. If anything that'll go to Walsh (assuming Lucroy is traded and Middlebrooks doesn't make team); who's a switch hitter and high OBP guy as well. Plus he actually plays in the IF regularly.

[Boomer5]

When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

I thought your argument was that he was too short to play 1B, which was proven to be incorrect. So your argument actually is that players who are short should not play first base unless they can hit 50 HRs (once)?

 

Someone else already mentioned this, but Flores' career ISO in AAA is 167, which is better than what Prince managed last year (158).

 

No one is saying that Flores has any sort of chance to be as productive as Fielder in his prime, but to write Flores off because he's 5'10 is strange.

 

The point is pretty obvious; you will only put up with a short 1B if and only if he is one of if not the best slugger in the game. While we put Prince at 1B, he was no ones idea of a 1B except that he technically was stationed there.

 

Putting Flores at 1B because there was once a short 1B - and therefore all short 1B are the same - is the same thing as saying we should put Braun at 3B because you, know, he was once a 3B so that disproves he shouldn't play there again.

 

I would assume most would get that Flores is not the next Prince.

[MKE81]

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

 

The Brewers just had a 5'9" guy play there for 7 years.

 

When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

 

Yes because comparing the power of a 1b to an OF is logical. 1b is a power position. Height has nothing to do with playing 1b. Obviously the bigger the wingspan the better but if that player can't field, scoop or have the proper footwork required to succeed over there than your wingspan is irrelevant. A 5'10 guy who can play that position well is much more valuable on the defensive side than a 6'6 brutal guy.

[And That]

The point is pretty obvious; you will only put up with a short 1B if and only if he is one of if not the best slugger in the game.

Why? All 5'11 of Carlos Santana just put up a 2.4 fWAR season being the Indians' primary first baseman last year, with decent returns on his defensive acumen.

 

The idea that shorter guys can't be good first baseman is always stated as fact, but I can't recall any specific statistics backing that up. I think taller guys tend to play 1B more so because it is more difficult for them to play other positions than it is because they are particularly good at playing first. There may be physical advantages to being taller at first base, but I certainly do not think that being 5'10 precludes someone from being a good first baseman. Why would it?

[Thurston Fluff]

He is a C level prospect who will be on a major league roster but he wont be a difference maker. Im curious of the word upside that is being used. What upside? Walks? Yes his OBA should be good. But he has little pop, little speed and can really only be a corner OF. He isn't going to be a 1B as he is 5'10". He is just a guy and honestly almost the last word I would use with Flores is upside.

 

I think you run into problems by making statements like someone is nothing of value unless someone is a blue chip prospect. Yet the ability to be a 4th outfielder is has value. So is being a C level prospect.

 

The idea that shorter guys can't be good first baseman is always stated as fact, but I can't recall any specific statistics backing that up. I think taller guys tend to play 1B more so because it is more difficult for them to play other positions than it is because they are particularly good at playing first. There may be physical advantages to being taller at first base, but I certainly do not think that being 5'10 precludes someone from being a good first baseman. Why would it?

 

I think a lot of it is based on the notion a larger target saves a lot of errant throws. There is probably some truth to it but I doubt it's all that important. Certainly less than the ability to move laterally and scoop balls out of the dirt. Finding other middle infielders who can accurately throws to first mitigates the problem far more than finding a tall person to snag high throws.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I mean, how often are they going to play the guy at 1st base? This is kind of a moot point. He may get 15 starts at 1st. It's not like he's going to start over there a bunch. Playing him at 1st occasionally isn't the end of the world.

 

Are we just arguing to argue about something?

[Thurston Fluff]

I mean, how often are they going to play the guy at 1st base? This is kind of a moot point. He may get 15 starts at 1st. It's not like he's going to start over there a bunch. Playing him at 1st occasionally isn't the end of the world.

 

Are we just arguing to argue about something?

 

It's that time of year were the team is basically done with off season moves but the players have yet to start playing games. With nothing new happening and everything about this team has been thoroughly covered 50 times over it tends to lead to arguing over very minor things. At least for hardcore fans looking for their spring fix. Things will change when we get to see players actually play. Then we'll argue over important things like how much spring training really matters, how much playing time veterans need to prepare for the season, how we can't learn much from small samples and things of that nature.

[TURBO]

Thurston Fluff, why is that in blue, that is EXACTLY what is going to happen, you can count on it.

[Boomer5]

This is an organization that has played Kotsay in CF, Braun at 3B, and Yuni at 1B (and well everywhere else for whatever reason), so could they put Flores at 1B? Sure.

 

So yes, technically, he could play 1B if that makes you feel better. At 5'10" OF with a career high of 11 HR's in 2011 in A ball is very few teams idea of a MLB 1B candidate other than desperation. Maybe he has some elite scoop skills? I would have no idea but if he does, let me know. His height wont help errant throws and his stretch wouldn't be as pronounced as a taller 1B. His bat clearly is not MLB 1B caliber.

 

As to the value statement, for what its worth, Steamer has him at 4-19-265 in 184 plate appearances (yes its standard and you can read the rest for yourself http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11165&position=OF) If that has value, then we have a very different definition of the word value.

[Boomer5]

I mean, how often are they going to play the guy at 1st base? This is kind of a moot point. He may get 15 starts at 1st. It's not like he's going to start over there a bunch. Playing him at 1st occasionally isn't the end of the world.

 

Are we just arguing to argue about something?

 

[sarcasm]I disagree[/sarcasm]

 

Honestly, on this team it wouldnt matter if Yuni was back so you are right, spot starting a Flores isn't going to make them any worse than they are now.

[jerichoholicninja]

This is an organization that has played Kotsay in CF, Braun at 3B, and Yuni at 1B (and well everywhere else for whatever reason), so could they put Flores at 1B? Sure.

 

So yes, technically, he could play 1B if that makes you feel better. At 5'10" OF with a career high of 11 HR's in 2011 in A ball is very few teams idea of a MLB 1B candidate other than desperation. Maybe he has some elite scoop skills? I would have no idea but if he does, let me know. His height wont help errant throws and his stretch wouldn't be as pronounced as a taller 1B. His bat clearly is not MLB 1B caliber.

 

As to the value statement, for what its worth, Steamer has him at 4-19-265 in 184 plate appearances (yes its standard and you can read the rest for yourself http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11165&position=OF) If that has value, then we have a very different definition of the word value.

 

Carter is the 1B. I'm not sure why you are even making this an issue.

[sveumrules]

The link you provided to Flores' Steamer projection has him down for a 100 wRC+ with a walk rate and on base percentage which are both above 2015's MLB average. If you can't see how that type of production would be valuable for a 4th OF, then we have a very different definition of the word value.

[brewcrewdue80]

Here's all I care about Flores. Bye, bye Logan Schafer. That is what was being played after injury as 4th OF. Without a doubt the Broxton/Liriano backup and Flores is a better backup for use on the roster. Are you delaying a guy like Reed from taking the field? in terms of team control yes. You pick up Liriano who likely wasn't expected to be on this assembled Roster/depth prior to it happening. Maybe he turns out. Maybe Broxton turns out. Flores. But what you don't do is continue Reed's clock in a lost season. Braun is in the subject here as someone to trade. If/when that happens, all these bodies are better depth for backups than the team has had Parra withstanding.

 

As to LF/RF makes no difference. Yes it does. The jump on the ball is a huge difference. As well as knowing the strength of the ball hit. I've read it critical of Braun in RF on his routes and jumps. Go ahead stand in the OF on both sides and tell me which side is easier to tell how hard and where the ball is heading off the crack of the bat?

There are more RHBs than LHBs. So a RHB hitting a ball to RF is going to be tougher to determine it's direction+power. Braun a 3b then LF wouldn't have had the experience on how Opposite field hits are except from what the rare LHBs gave and we all know how great shifts have become because the inabilities of lefties to go to Left field and why not? A ball down the RF line pulled by a lefty could mean 3b. A ball hit opposite field to LF maybe results in a 2b at best. Repetitions and experience is what Braun needed for RF. Santana already has that going for him. As does Braun in LF. makes perfect sense.