I find the love for the rebuilding process curious around here

[logan82]

At pretty much every other position they either have a young player with longer term upside or a place holder with potential value to be flipped. I can't really say that about center field.

I would say Phillips has some upside.

[RobertR]

There's no way that Phillips breaks camp with the team, even if he's obviously the best option. No point in starting his clock until after he's clear of Super Two status.

[RobertR]

Between Broxton, Flores, Nieuwenhuis, Liriano, Reed, Santana, and then potentially Phillips later on in the year, I'd think the Brewers are done adding guys to the CF mix for now. I thought Austin Jackson might make sense early on in the offseason, but unless they can get him dirt cheap, you're signing him in the hopes he plays well enough to be traded at the risk of losing Flores and/or Liriano, both of whom are out of options and could be longer term pieces.

 

All the more reason to be shopping Davis and Braun.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Well, they have Phillips knocking on the door, so I would certainly consider him a young player with longer term upside. Given his presence, going out to get another true CF who might fill the role for multiple years doesn't seem like the best use of meager resources. It is a bit confounding though; they obviously have too many corner outfielders, though, and no clear CF for this coming season. It's still very possible that we'll see a trade to address this, but in the end I think CF this year in Milwaukee is going to be a place to give Santana, Liriano, and, eventually, Flores some playing time, with Nieuwenhuis the only true CF on the roster. The defense will take a hit, but those three guys all have some upside and I'd like to see some investment of PAs to see whether they can blossom.

 

It does look like a poor defense overall, but I think at many positions they are more likely to be just a few runs below average than they are to be outright horrible. If the fangraphs projections are to be believed (and of course defensive stats much less projections should be viewed cautiously) the outfield seems much worse than the infield, in part due to the absence of a true CF. (OK, first base isn't going to be great, either.) They have Cecchini and Middlebrooks as ok at third, for whatever that's worth; I'm not sure whether that's a real projection or just the absence of data.

 

My hope is that the defense would start to improve next year with Phillips and Arcia pushing their way in; seems like Santana/Liriano/Flores could be fine in a corner and Villar decent at second if their offense justifies keeping them around. And hey, we do have some DH candidates should that come to pass...

[superfly]

I think Flores is really the only one acquired that looks to be on the team next year that might break out. Projection systems love him (KATOH has him the #24 in all of baseball). In fact the only way to make sense of the Lind trade is if you make it Lind and Sardinas for Flores + the 3 arms. Each of the deals would be fairly lopsided on their own. But then Flores really isn't a CFer either and so I don't know where he would get ABs.

 

As to the point about defense, yeah it looks to be terrible next year.

 

Catcher looks to be only position that might be above average. Gennett will likely be about average at 2B. After that, not good.

 

Hill/Cecchini/Middlebrooks look to be below average at 3B.

 

Villar looks to be a terrible defensive SS

 

Carter is a bad defensive 1B

 

Braun's and Davis's failings are well known.

 

Niuewenhuis likely would be average in Cf, maybe slightly better but then you are giving PAs to a 28 year old 5th OFer.

 

Good. We want to lose games anyway. The whole "horrible defense" thing is being way overblown on this forum anyway, we aren't looking to win World Series games this year anyway so it ultimately won't make much of a difference in my opinion.

[logan82]

There's no way that Phillips breaks camp with the team, even if he's obviously the best option. No point in starting his clock until after he's clear of Super Two status.

Of course not. That is why we don't need a guy with high upside. We just need a stopgap.

[FVBrewerFan]

Good. We want to lose games anyway. The whole "horrible defense" thing is being way overblown on this forum anyway, we aren't looking to win World Series games this year anyway so it ultimately won't make much of a difference in my opinion.

 

The goal is to develop young players, not to lose games. Losing a lot of games is just a by-product. As others have said, it doesn't do wonders for developing young pitchers with bad (possibly horrendous) defense behind them.

[Boomer5]

Good. We want to lose games anyway. The whole "horrible defense" thing is being way overblown on this forum anyway, we aren't looking to win World Series games this year anyway so it ultimately won't make much of a difference in my opinion.

 

The goal is to develop young players, not to lose games. Losing a lot of games is just a by-product. As others have said, it doesn't do wonders for developing young pitchers with bad (possibly horrendous) defense behind them.

 

Stearns is as aware of these players defensive metrics as we are and yet he is still building the team around them. People get upset at the word "tanking" in how that implies the team is trying to lose.

 

Well you don't need to tell a Chris Carter to strike out and play a bad 1B and you dont need to tell a Hill to be a bad baseball player. They will do that just fine on their own. If you put them out there, you know you are going to get a losing team.

[MrTPlush]

Good. We want to lose games anyway. The whole "horrible defense" thing is being way overblown on this forum anyway, we aren't looking to win World Series games this year anyway so it ultimately won't make much of a difference in my opinion.

 

The goal is to develop young players, not to lose games. Losing a lot of games is just a by-product. As others have said, it doesn't do wonders for developing young pitchers with bad (possibly horrendous) defense behind them.

 

Stearns is as aware of these players defensive metrics as we are and yet he is still building the team around them. People get upset at the word "tanking" in how that implies the team is trying to lose.

 

Well you don't need to tell a Chris Carter to strike out and play a bad 1B and you dont need to tell a Hill to be a bad baseball player. They will do that just fine on their own. If you put them out there, you know you are going to get a losing team.

 

Chris Carter was brought in for his slight upside and with a nice first half of the season could be flipped for something useful. Stearns did not go, "Oh wow Chris Carter sucks get him over here."

 

Aaron Hill is not going to start or even play that often. Who says he even makes the team?

 

If he was trying to put bad defense out there why won't he put Santana in CF?

[hurricanecrush]

Obviously I didn't see the offers he got, but I imagine he could have gotten at least a semi-promising pitcher that might fit into a bullpen someday. Less risk but also less ceiling in that scenario. Stearns has also traded two decent pitching prospects since taking over. I am fine because it looks like we have many of those types already in the system...

Aren't the semi-promising pitcher that you want and the decent pitching prospects that we have many of, the same thing? If we already have many of them, I'd personally rather go for higher upside at a lower level.

[MrTPlush]

Obviously I didn't see the offers he got, but I imagine he could have gotten at least a semi-promising pitcher that might fit into a bullpen someday. Less risk but also less ceiling in that scenario. Stearns has also traded two decent pitching prospects since taking over. I am fine because it looks like we have many of those types already in the system...

Aren't the semi-promising pitcher that you want and the decent pitching prospects that we have many of, the same thing? If we already have many of them, I'd personally rather go for higher upside at a lower level.

 

I wouldn't really even say they have a higher ceiling. I don't think anyone really knows what they are...they are a total mystery at this point. They could have a higher ceiling, but as it stands I don't think we see anything to support that.

 

Yes we have a good portion of middle of the road pitching prospects, but we have already seen Stearns trade two of them in trades. One to acquire a player directly and one to improve a return. If that is the kind of guy Stearns is those can be very valuable to have. Pitching is ALWAYS in demand.

[RobDeer 45]

BF.net fans vision of Stearns first meeting with the organization:

 

Scout: "This guy here is dead!"

 

Stearns: "Cross him off then!"

[RobertR]

Yeah there's always the chance that Carter could pop 20 hrs by the trade deadline and have a market. Clearly Stearns is aware of it. Same for Middlebrooks. They're stopgaps but there's some upside to them that could be flipped for more long-term talent.

 

But I think it's fair to point out that those guys cumulatively make for a bad defense. It's worth considering if that gets in the way of long-term goals like developing pitching. I don't know the answer to that but it's always good to be aware of potential unintended consequences.

[FVBrewerFan]

I think the point is some of these guys they have acquired happen to be bad defenders. It's not like Stearns has said, "we want as many losses as possible so let's build a horrible defensive team."

 

If that were the case, he could have stuck Rogers at 3B, Santana in CF, and Herrera at SS. If the sole purpose was to lose games, he could have set the roster up accordingly.

[MadScientist]

We are less than 3 years removed from a team with Yuni B and Jaun Francisco. How bad could this lot be?

[RobDeer 45]

Would you say that bats bring back more return for trades than gloves? He's picking up guys with warts. You can hide a below average glove sometimes, but you can't hide a bad bat.

[FVBrewerFan]

We are less than 3 years removed from a team with Yuni B and Jaun Francisco. How bad could this lot be?

 

Great point, hard to argue with that. And it's not like Lind was a gold glover either.

[3and2Fastball]

We are less than 3 years removed from a team with Yuni B and Jaun Francisco. How bad could this lot be?

 

Great point, hard to argue with that. And it's not like Lind was a gold glover either.

 

Nor was Rickie Weeks or Prince Fielder, and Ryan Braun was historically bad in his season at 3B

[FVBrewerFan]

Would you say that bats bring back more return for trades than gloves? He's picking up guys with warts. You can hide a below average glove sometimes, but you can't hide a bad bat.

 

I seem to recall an old adage that applies here. "The bat plays."

[3and2Fastball]

I'm struggling to think of another team in recent history that went with hitting as a 1st priority, with little regard for defense and only a secondary regard for pitching, that won a World Series. It just plain doesn't work

[Oxy]

The Yankees in 09 went hitting first. Maybe Stearns is following that model? ;-)

[MadScientist]

I'm struggling to think of another team in recent history that went with hitting as a 1st priority, with little regard for defense and only a secondary regard for pitching, that won a World Series. It just plain doesn't work

Well if that's your attitude, I suggest you not bet the mortgage on the Brewers winning it all this year.

 

Pitching and defense will look like higher priorities when Arcia, Phillips, and the next wave of pitchers are up. As for defense, the 2011 Brewers have the most wins in franchise history, and their defense was:

 

C - Lucroy

1B - Fielder

2B - Weeks

SS - Betancourt

3B - McGhee

LF - Braun

CF - Morgan

RF - Hart

 

I'm not seeing a lot of gold glove material there.

[QuevedosTongue]

I'm struggling to think of another team in recent history that went with hitting as a 1st priority, with little regard for defense and only a secondary regard for pitching, that won a World Series. It just plain doesn't work

 

I wouldn't necessarily look at the team as constructed right now and assume it's the model Stearns looks at for a successful team. Right now it's about selling assets in return for young, controllable talent. The big league roster right now is filler, with Stearns giving a lot of flawed young players a chance. As the rebuild progresses they'll be better up the middle (Arcia, someone better with the glove than Scooter, Phillips in CF) with the gloves than they are now. I expect that will be the case with some other positions as well because we aren't necessarily looking at the next C, 1B, 3B, or corner OFs even being in the organization yet. Not saying all those positions will be filled from players not currently in the org, but some will. And by 'next' at those positions, I mean the next guy to play who we would actually consider a player, not from the filler that's on the roster right now. Although, some of them could surprise and be productive, but I expect those players would be dealt if they can provide a return.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm struggling to think of another team in recent history that went with hitting as a 1st priority, with little regard for defense and only a secondary regard for pitching, that won a World Series. It just plain doesn't work

 

I wouldn't necessarily look at the team as constructed right now and assume it's the model Stearns looks at for a successful team.

 

 

I'm not at all doing that. I have a lot of confidence in Stearns.

[trwi7]

The Yankees in 09 went hitting first. Maybe Stearns is following that model? ;-)

 

Stearns is following the collect as many talented young players as you can using the smallest number of assets possible and sort it all out later.