2016 HOF candidates (Griffey, Piazza voted in; post 30)

[remfire]

There are only 4 more days until the voting is revealed. Who gets in? Who doesn't? Who deserves it? Who does not? Griffey Jr is a lock. I'm thinking Bagwell, Piazza, and Raines will round out the top 4 although I think only 2 of the 3 get in. Hoffman doesn't get in this year, but will get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Jim Edmonds and Billy Wagner get a little love and remain on the ballot also. Randy Winn has no chance and will rightfully fall off the ballot.

[Bikeage77]

Griffey and Piazza get in but that's it.

[3and2Fastball]

Griffey is a no doubter. Piazza should get in, hopefully he does

 

I'm among the few (?) who think Bonds & Clemens should already be in.

 

It wouldn't shock me to see Griffey be the only one who gets in this year

[SRB]

Yearly reminder that the entire institution is an irrelevant joke as long as Bonds and Clemens (short list for greatest player and greatest pitcher of all time) are not in it due to petty grandstanding by BBWAA members

[igor67]

Or a yearly reminder that an ugly side effect of sabermetric group think has been to ignore the nasty repercussions for people by focusing only on outcomes. It's not like the writers made up the idea of incorporating character and sportsmanship, its been there since the beginning.

[pacopete4]

The baseball HOF is a joke. Who cares? Until they get off their high horses and put the best players in the game in, it's a meaningless place.

[Funketown]

Or a yearly reminder that an ugly side effect of sabermetric group think has been to ignore the nasty repercussions for people by focusing only on outcomes. It's not like the writers made up the idea of incorporating character and sportsmanship, its been there since the beginning.

 

Ty Cobb (and countless others) say hi.

[MrTPlush]

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

The HOF is not intended to just be about a players stats or skill. There are many other considerations. Why people seem to ignore this is beyond me. Their rules and they aren't on some kind of high horse. Are their cheaters in the HOF we don't know about? Probably, but life isn't fair. The HOF has made it pretty clear they won't be putting any bad apples on pedestals knowingly.

 

Personally I don't see anything wrong with their rules and their decision to ignore some players(Bonds/Clemens).

[pacopete4]

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character

 

 

Well then start taking quite a few of them out of the HOF then. Can't have it both ways. The HOF should be a museum of the best that ever played the game, mistake or not. Heck, put that on their plaques if you truly want to. It's a joke that a bunch of sports writers hold the keys to the castle.

[SRB]

Or a yearly reminder that an ugly side effect of sabermetric group think has been to ignore the nasty repercussions for people by focusing only on outcomes. It's not like the writers made up the idea of incorporating character and sportsmanship, its been there since the beginning.

 

Name one player other than Pete Rose or the PED suspects who was excluded for "character and sportsmanship". You can't, because this witch hunt is a modern invention of angry writers who have never touched a baseball bat.

 

If you think it's legitimate to exclude Barry Bonds from a baseball "Hall of Fame," more power to you, but as a baseball fan I therefore consider it a dumb, ridiculous institution and I think we should stop paying any attention to it sooner rather than later.

 

(P.S. - players have always cheated. People just get scared by PEDs because of the manufactured witch hunt)

[502 to Right]

I can't believe the HOF voting is left to baseball writers. That's the joke.

[MrTPlush]

Who do you guys want to vote? Is there really a good option? I guess you could do living HOFers to do it. How often do they actually watch baseball though? You could do current coaches, but I see bias there.

 

I just don't see the better option here.

[pacopete4]

Who do you guys want to vote? Is there really a good option? I guess you could do living HOFers to do it. How often do they actually watch baseball though? You could do current coaches, but I see bias there.

 

I just don't see the better option here.

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-the-game/selection-process/

 

Something like the NFL would work a lot better.

[sveumrules]

I've never been to Cooperstown but I'd imagine that Bonds, Rose, Clemens, even Joe Jackson are all represented throughout the numerous exhibits at the museum, they just don't have plaques in the actual Hall. That's fine with me. I don't need someone to be or not to be officially recognized as a Hall of Famer to know they were or weren't one in my mind.

 

If at some point the writers realize they are just as complicit in the existence and proliferation of the "steroid era" (luckily it was just steroids that caused all those records to be broken, expansion and a trend towards smaller ballparks had nothing to do with it) as the players, managers & owners; and Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and the rest get voted in, that will be fine with me too.

[jerichoholicninja]

Many others have made the points I was going to make but I'll still add that if you're going to keep two of the best players of all time in Bonds and Rose out because of rules violations and character or integrity or whatever you want to call it then noted racists like Ty Cobb and cheaters like Gaylord Perry should be removed.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Or a yearly reminder that an ugly side effect of sabermetric group think has been to ignore the nasty repercussions for people by focusing only on outcomes. It's not like the writers made up the idea of incorporating character and sportsmanship, its been there since the beginning.

 

Name one player other than Pete Rose or the PED suspects who was excluded for "character and sportsmanship". You can't, because this witch hunt is a modern invention of angry writers who have never touched a baseball bat.

 

)

 

Dick Allen.

[remfire]

Dave Parker is another one. Ultimately it falls on the writers, although their hands are being tied quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, it was the Hall of Fame that shortened the years of eligibility from 15 to 10. This is huge and Bert Blyleven and Jim Rice agree. They also capped the voting to 10 players a year. This forces some players to fall off prematurely ala Kenny Lofton. Many writers heavily dislike the voting process and scream for changes. To me, it is clear that the Hall doesn't want these guys in either at the present moment.

[Bikeage77]

Dave Parker is another one. Ultimately it falls on the writers, although their hands are being tied quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, it was the Hall of Fame that shortened the years of eligibility from 15 to 10. This is huge and Bert Blyleven and Jim Rice agree. They also capped the voting to 10 players a year. This forces some players to fall off prematurely ala Kenny Lofton. Many writers heavily dislike the voting process and scream for changes. To me, it is clear that the Hall doesn't want these guys in either at the present moment.

 

Anyone here think that Kenny Lofton should be in the HOF, regardless of first or 15th ballot?

[remfire]

Not really here to argue that Lofton is a HOFer, just that he fell off the ballot a little prematurely. HOFer or not, I would think it's a prestigious thing to hang on the ballot for awhile. IMO, he's a Hall of Very Gooder. His stats are sneaky good though.

[sveumrules]

The most obvious comp for Lofton is Lou Brock.

 

Lofton played 2,130 games coming to the plate 9,234 times. He batted 299/372/423, which was 9% better than league average during his career. He stole 622 bases while being thrown out 160 times for a 79.5% success rate. He played 17,180 innings in the outfield; 16,740 of which were in centerfield. According to fangraphs he accumulated 62.4 WAR during his career.

 

Brock played 2,616 games coming to the plate 11,235 times. He batted 293/343/410, which was 9% better than league average during his career. He stole 938 bases while being thrown out 307 times for a 75.3% success rate. He played 21,492 innings in the outfield; 18,483 of which were in leftfield. According to fangraphs he accumulated 43.2 WAR during his career.

 

Of course Brock has 3,000 hits and at the time he retired was the career leader in stolen bases, but if he is the standard that speedy outfielders need to meet I think Lofton deserved far more consideration than one year on the ballot. He essentially hit as well as Brock, while being a better fielder at a more difficult defensive position & stealing bases at a more successful rate.

[JimH5]

Griffey is a lock and I think Piazza might get enough votes to get in.

 

I think the voters are starting to soften a bit on the character clause as the known PED era gets further back in the rearview mirror--and as the electorate cycles younger voters in.

 

I have been to Cooperstown probably a dozen times. The museum is filled with stuff and references to players in the PED era. Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are also well represented in the museum.

 

But they don't have plaques hanging in the plaque gallery. And they haven't been inducted, with a ceremony and an audience and the living Hall of Famers sitting behind them. It does a disservice to those HOF players to honor guys who cheated their way to glory.

[3and2Fastball]

It does a disservice to those HOF players to honor guys who cheated their way to glory.

 

In a vacuum, I would perhaps agree. However I think it is naive to think that there aren't several players who did Steroids already in the Hall of Fame. I knew a bunch of high school athletes in the late 70's/early 80's that were on steroids. To think that none of the early 80's MLB players were on steroids just doesn't seem logical. Wouldn't shock me in the slightest if it turned out that Biggio & Randy Johnson did steroids. Johnson in particular had that weird spike in effectiveness after the age of 40. Nolan Ryan is another one who wouldn't surprise me at all.... players like Molitor who were on cocaine, you think they never did Steroids too?

 

If you told me that 70% of MLB during Bonds' peak years were on steroids, it wouldn't shock me in the slightest.

 

Now, are we ready to discuss all the amphetamines that Willie Mays & Hank Aaron took? You think that didn't effect performance?. Most people just shrug their shoulders as if it was an extra cup of coffee those guys drank. Mays & Aaron played most of their careers on drugs.

[JimH5]

However I think it is naive to think that there aren't several players who did Steroids already in the Hall of Fame.

 

I don't think there are several. I think there may be a few, but that would strictly be a guess--and an unfair one at that.

 

While you have guessed on Craig Biggio, Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan and Paul Molitor. . .

 

How about Warren Spahn? He led the league in wins every year from ages 36 through 40, and complete games from 36 to 42.

What about Dazzy Vance? He led the league in ERA and shutouts at 37 and 39.

What about Sam Rice? He had 202 hits at age 38, 199 hits at age 39 and 207 hits at age 40.

And Ted Williams. . .he hit .388 with a .526 OBP and .731 SLG (all league leaders) at age 38. And then lead the league in batting and OBP the next year.

 

All those guys did those things before steroids were in use. It isn't unprecedented for great players to do great things at an advanced age.

[rwa12]

The public votes so far say that Griffey, Piazza, Bagwell and Raines all have a shot at least. Raines would be the one most likely to miss. I would be fine with those 4 in.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If Tim Raines doesn't get in I'm going to seize federal property.