Minor league RHP Cy Sneed to Astros for SS Jonathan Villar

[MKE81]

Sneed has a 0% chance of cracking our rotation but might have found a spot in the pen but that would depend on a lot of variables. Our pen is currently strong and Sneed would have to end up earning a spot over guys like Suter, Barrios, Houser, Ponce, Magnifico, etc by the time he's ready (Suter, Houser, Ponce should be moved to the pen full time without question). Sneed hasn't even pitched in AA yet and in return we get a guy in Villar who has spent a full season's worth of time at the MLB level already. A guy who is already our top backup IF who brings versatility, defense, arm, speed, pop. He's well-rounded and even though he'll start this year and maybe in 2017 he would be a very strong player off the bench. Something we've lacked for a while now.

[Roderick]

Stearns is doing his best Preller. Guns a' blazing.

 

I'm starting to get a case of the shakes, Stearns hasn't made a trade for a few days now......

[MadScientist]

Stearns is doing his best Preller. Guns a' blazing.

 

I'm starting to get a case of the shakes, Stearns hasn't made a trade for a few days now......

 

They all went home early for Thanksgiving. No Black Friday player sales. Maybe someone will decide in a couple of weeks they need a nice shiny 1B as a gift to the fans and overpay a bit for Lind.

[Mass Haas]

Hot Stove Hot Takes: Jonathan Villar

 

Written from a fantasy baseball perspective, but still valid...

[ZBTMP]

Ponce should be moved to the pen full time without question

 

I know you said without question, but huh? Is it just because he throws hard in short stints or had shoulder soreness last spring? I haven't seen any indication or scouting report that questions his projection as a starter.

[Roderick]

Hot Stove Hot Takes: Jonathan Villar

 

Written from a fantasy baseball perspective, but still valid...

 

That same article also has a bit on Johnny Hellweg too.

[Jenkins5]

Why are you giving up on Ponce & Houser so fast as starters? Nelson and Peralta are built just as big with power arms...should we move them to the Pen as well? Both since join the Brewers mid season have been dominant and have shown no reason why they can't be starters. Since starters hold a whole lot more value, you ride that out until they are too good in the minors with no spot open in MLB rotation. Then you decide what they will be going forward.

 

I don't play fantasy baseball but the fact Hellwig couldn't even come close to getting the ball over the plate and when he did he was being shelled by A+ hitters in the worst offensive league in all of minor leagues.... Not expecting much out of him.

[MKE81]

Ponce should be moved to the pen full time without question

 

I know you said without question, but huh? Is it just because he throws hard in short stints or had shoulder soreness last spring? I haven't seen any indication or scouting report that questions his projection as a starter.

 

I think he should be out of the pen as he'll be more effective and have a longer career. Can spot start if needed as would be capable. But out of the pen he was 15ip, 11h, 0er, 15K, 1bb in A ball. He also pitched very well starting in A having a 2.30era outside of his one terrible start. He has better command out of the pen (9bb in 31ip in A as SP) as well. This is obviously a small sample size given it's his first season but his command has been avg or so as a starter even in college even though I'd assume he'd improve upon that as he grows as a professional. Throws low 90s consistently as starter but out of the pen can stay at 95-97 and with four pitchers makes him even more dangerous. If his small injuries arise as he develops those potentially could be eased with a move to the pen as well. Lot of guys are projected as long-term mid-rotation starters but by the time they're ready for MLB should be moved to the pen (ie Hellweg). I just feel he's better suited there along with Houser and some others. There needs to be more Wade Davis types - decent SPs but have the stuff to be extremely effective out of the pen thus having better/longer careers

[And That]

I think he should be out of the pen as he'll be more effective and have a longer career.

That's true of virtually any pitcher. He did have his shoulder fatigue issue in college, but if you're going to say "nope, reliever" at the first sign injury to any pitcher, you're short-circuiting your chances of competing down the road. If there is a legitimate scouting opinion as to why he can't be a starter, I'm open to that, but the consensus I've seen is that he projects as a guy that at least has a chance to start at the highest level, and that people are generally unconcerned about the shoulder thing.

 

You leave guys like Ponce in as starters until it is clear he wouldn't cut it in Milwaukee's rotation. That's why guys like Goforth, Magnifico, and Barnes were kept as starters for so long even though it was almost assured that they projected as relievers - it doesn't hurt to see if there's something there. In Ponce's case, it is readily apparent there is something there.

[Jenkins5]

There is zero reason to give up on Ponce as a starter. From every report in instructional league he was sitting mid to upper 90s. To base everything off 46IPs of minor league baseball following a college ace workload..... As I said before they profile very similar to Peralta & Nelson. You run them as starters until it is time to make a choice down the road when they are to useful to waste away in AAA but theres no room for them in rotation. Maybe they will be bullpen pieces down the road but that doesn't mean you drag their value through the mud now. RP is last resort for any true pitching prospect. If you have the talent to start, you keep on starting. SPs are so much more valuable than RPs

[brewcrewdue80]

Ponce should be moved to the pen full time without question

 

I know you said without question, but huh? Is it just because he throws hard in short stints or had shoulder soreness last spring? I haven't seen any indication or scouting report that questions his projection as a starter.

 

I think he should be out of the pen as he'll be more effective and have a longer career. Can spot start if needed as would be capable. But out of the pen he was 15ip, 11h, 0er, 15K, 1bb in A ball. He also pitched very well starting in A having a 2.30era outside of his one terrible start. He has better command out of the pen (9bb in 31ip in A as SP) as well. This is obviously a small sample size given it's his first season but his command has been avg or so as a starter even in college even though I'd assume he'd improve upon that as he grows as a professional. Throws low 90s consistently as starter but out of the pen can stay at 95-97 and with four pitchers makes him even more dangerous. If his small injuries arise as he develops those potentially could be eased with a move to the pen as well. Lot of guys are projected as long-term mid-rotation starters but by the time they're ready for MLB should be moved to the pen (ie Hellweg). I just feel he's better suited there along with Houser and some others. There needs to be more Wade Davis types - decent SPs but have the stuff to be extremely effective out of the pen thus having better/longer careers

 

That line right there tells you why he should be a Starter over a RP. Starters need more than 2 pitches. KRod? FB+Changeup=Damn good closer. Ponce has some serious pitch potential, I am concerned about his control with the high effort delivery that I shied away from promoting his selection predraft. He tempers down a little bit but maintains his velocity Ponce may be the best SP prospect over Medeiros. No way do you put him in the bullpen any time soon.

[CheezWizHed]

When someone says something so absolutely as 0% or no question, it's not normally worth the effort to argue.

 

Ponce is one of our better SP prospects. Sneed has a chance to be a legit MLB SP and done nothing to show he can't.

[pacopete4]

When someone says something so absolutely as 0% or no question, it's not normally worth the effort to argue.

 

Ponce is one of our better SP prospects. Sneed has a chance to be a legit MLB SP and done nothing to show he can't.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Sneed could turn into a MLB starter, how good? Who knows? But I do like the trade for a switch hitting IF that gives us a lot of versatility and possibly starts for us.

[MKE81]

Who's arguing? It's called voicing an opinion and engaging in conversation. All I've tead is "could" and "has a chance" to be a legit MLB SP. That also means there's a chance he won't make a rotation. I don't subscrine to the logic of running a SP as long as possible before it doesn't work out. If it takes an org 5yrs before they figure it out then they're not good at what they do. I mentioned Hellweg because I've always thought he should have been out of the pen since he was acquired. And now he's out of the org because of arm issues. Ponce has average command of his pitches. That's not good. He's rated so highly right now due to being a 2nd rd pick and having a good year at A ball. Every year there are guys rated highly or project to be this and that. Ponce most likely isn't going to be an ace. Hader and Lopez are next up. Houser didn't dominate as a SP when came over but did pitch well. He also got rocked every year prior to the trade. He's a reliever in my opinion. Building a bullpen international that can make an impact at the MLB level is just as important as building strong SPs and position players. 25 spots on a team that all matter. There's nothing wrong with being moved to the pen. Forgive me if I don't drool over "projections" by people who are wrong plenty often

[BrewBalls]

Who's arguing? It's called voicing an opinion and engaging in conversation. All I've tead is "could" and "has a chance" to be a legit MLB SP. That also means there's a chance he won't make a rotation. I don't subscrine to the logic of running a SP as long as possible before it doesn't work out. If it takes an org 5yrs before they figure it out then they're not good at what they do. I mentioned Hellweg because I've always thought he should have been out of the pen since he was acquired. And now he's out of the org because of arm issues. Ponce has average command of his pitches. That's not good. He's rated so highly right now due to being a 2nd rd pick and having a good year at A ball. Every year there are guys rated highly or project to be this and that. Ponce most likely isn't going to be an ace. Hader and Lopez are next up. Houser didn't dominate as a SP when came over but did pitch well. He also got rocked every year prior to the trade. He's a reliever in my opinion. Building a bullpen international that can make an impact at the MLB level is just as important as building strong SPs and position players. 25 spots on a team that all matter. There's nothing wrong with being moved to the pen. Forgive me if I don't drool over "projections" by people who are wrong plenty often

Highly rated?? Ponce is currently ranked #29 in the Brewers system behind players like Cravy, Goforth and Denson because of his control issues while Sneed also put up good numbers in A Ball but did so while being 2 years older. I am not saying to pencil Ponce into our rotation anytime soon but as other posters have already mentioned. You do not put a pitcher who has four average or better pitches into the bullpen. Plain and simple.

[yfinn6]

Who's arguing? It's called voicing an opinion and engaging in conversation. All I've tead is "could" and "has a chance" to be a legit MLB SP. That also means there's a chance he won't make a rotation. I don't subscrine to the logic of running a SP as long as possible before it doesn't work out. If it takes an org 5yrs before they figure it out then they're not good at what they do. I mentioned Hellweg because I've always thought he should have been out of the pen since he was acquired. And now he's out of the org because of arm issues. Ponce has average command of his pitches. That's not good. He's rated so highly right now due to being a 2nd rd pick and having a good year at A ball. Every year there are guys rated highly or project to be this and that. Ponce most likely isn't going to be an ace. Hader and Lopez are next up. Houser didn't dominate as a SP when came over but did pitch well. He also got rocked every year prior to the trade. He's a reliever in my opinion. Building a bullpen international that can make an impact at the MLB level is just as important as building strong SPs and position players. 25 spots on a team that all matter. There's nothing wrong with being moved to the pen. Forgive me if I don't drool over "projections" by people who are wrong plenty often

 

If he were having control issues at AAA then you might consider a bullpen role. He's still plenty young where he can develop his control as he moves up the Minor League ranks.

 

Ponce won't be an ace? That's a certain possibility, but if he's a quality 2 or 3 that's something the Brewers will definitely take as a starting pitcher, and that warrants the usual 'wait and see' approach you have to take with minor leaguers as they develop.

 

You're correct, people are wrong on "projections" - you don't know how a player will develop as they mature mentally and physically, but you don't take a kid who has Ponce's ability (at this stage of his development) and put him in a role usually reserved for guys who have proven they are not starting pitchers.

[And That]

Building a bullpen international that can make an impact at the MLB level is just as important as building strong SPs and position players.

Correct, and many of the best relievers in baseball were starters for a significant portion of their career.

 

For some context, Milwaukee's bullpen had the ninth best ERA in baseball last year, by all accounts a pretty good unit. Here is the list of guys who pitched at least 10 relief innings for the Brewers last year:

 

Francisco Rodriguez: Starter through advanced-A ball

Will Smith: Starter into MLB

Jeremy Jeffress: Starter into AAA

Corey Knebel: Reliever in college when drafted

Neil Cotts: Starter into AAA

Michael Blazek: Starter into AAA

Jonathan Broxton: Starter into AA

David Goforth: Starter into AA

Tyler Thornburg: Starter into MLB

Cesar Jimenez: Starter into MLB

Tyler Cravy: Starter into MLB

 

So except for Knebel who was already a reliever for the Longhorns when he was drafted by Detroit, literally everyone of consequence in the Brewers' bullpen had significant starting experience. Most of them into the high minors and the big leagues. Heck, K-Rod had 42 starts in the minor leagues before turning 20.

 

And among guys likely to be in the bullpen at some point next year, Junior Guerra, Ariel Pena, Justin Barnes, Damien Magnifico, and Mike Strong all have quite a bit of starting experience as well.

 

It's backwards logic to say, well he may or may not make it as a starter, so the heck with it, let's make him a reliever in A ball. The list of successful big league relievers who were converted from a starter into a reliever as a pro, before they hit advanced-A, is a very short one. Even if you don't think the guy is going to end up as a starter, like Barnes and Magnifico almost assuredly were not, it is still worthwhile to give them lots of innings to work on what they have, and maybe once in awhile one of the guys you had pegged as a reliever actually does work out as a starter, and you've created a bunch of value for yourself. And if they do turn out to be a reliever, you usually do it after a few years in AA or AAA. Sometimes longer.

[brewcrewdue80]

It's a mistake that Ponce is rated #29 on MLB's rankings. He wont be there midseason rankings in 2016. Probably top 15. I don't even get how guys like Goforth, WREN?!!, Roache, Denson can even be ranked ahead of them. Wren doesn't belong in a top 50 rankings. Denson either. Again, for me personally Ponce is the #2 best SP prospect Milw has after Medeiros. He'll find his way up to Medeiros' ranking before long. Devin Williams hasn't proven anything to me who was a 2nd rd pick like Ponce and is 7th? But Ponce 29th? Think about that. Ponce was more highly regarded predraft than Williams. I don't know about Hader, he reads well and maybe better than both Medeiros/Ponce. Any Pitcher ranking should revolve those 3 first. Williams has a bit of a climb to go and Davies I believe has less ceiling.

[djoctagone]

craig counsell is high on jonathan villar's versatility.

[JohnBriggs12]

I like Counsell but I think he's a little too enamored by versatility and tends to like players who were like himself. When Ramirez was traded last year, it was the perfect opportunity to see what they had in 24 year old Hernan Perez at 3B. So what does Counsell do? He installs a career minor league utility player in as the left handed portion of a platoon there. Nothing against Elian Herrera who had his moments and isn't a bad utility player, but the franchise needed to look at any possible long term solutions at that position and Herrera certainly wasn't that whereas a 24 year old at least could conceivable be that guy. That's a missed opportunity both for Perez and the Brewers.

 

So now we have Villar. Will Counsell move him all over the diamond or see if he's the solution at 3B?

[pacopete4]

I think Perez was given enough of a look to realize what he is.

[dacrew101]

Ouch.

 

Jose de Jesus Ortiz ‏@OrtizKicks 15m15 minutes ago

The #Astros gave Jonathan Villar every chance to succeed. He is very versatile, but his teammates will tell you he is a knucklehead.

 

Jose de Jesus Ortiz ‏@OrtizKicks 18m18 minutes ago

Don't know much about Cy Sneed, but I think we can all agree the #Astros won any trade by dumping Villar.

 

Looking back on these posts is great, one mans trash is another mans treasure

[reillymcshane]

Sneed putting up solid numbers at AA for Houston:

 

3.29 ERA, 38 IP, 43K, 13BB, 1.252 WHIP

[JohnBriggs12]

Sneed putting up solid numbers at AA for Houston:

 

3.29 ERA, 38 IP, 43K, 13BB, 1.252 WHIP

 

Good for him. He brought the Brewers a 25 year old who's putting up the best offensive numbers of any SS in the NL not named Diaz through a third of the season and given hope to some of us that they'll rethink the timing and extent of the rebuild. It's a perfect example that it's never a bad time to consider dealing a prospect here and there, even in the midst of a rebuild, when the return is a young emerging talented player.

[1992casey]

Based on Stearns' statements over the last few months, I think the "timing and extent" of the rebuild are under constant evaluation and reevaluation. On several occasions, he's said that there is no timetable.

 

I think the only trades that aren't appropriate right now would be prospects for veterans. Veterans for prospects, prospects for prospects, or veterans for veterans would all seem appropriate.

 

interestingly, in this case, the Brewers took on the older player with less control. But each player is performing well, and it's easy to envision this deal turning out to be a win for both teams.