KROD to the Tigers for Betancourt and PTBNL (PTBNL is catcher Manny Piña, post 157)

[torts]

I will miss Krod, I truly enjoyed watching him pitch

[MNBrew]

Honestly, offensively.... His scouting reads a lot like everything you read about Arcia outside of power & Sbs. High baseball IQ, great knowledge of strike zone, makes every pitcher earn there outs. High contact & hand eye coordination. Sprays ball all over the field. Extremely competitive, hard working, and dedicated to improving. Both are low strike out/ low walk guys.

 

This season he was 19/20 in FSL and managed to still hit .260 in a pitchers league. Like Arcia due to his high IQ, natural talent, & work ethic he has been aggressively pushed. Arcia started to put it together in FSL then busted out in AA. Maybe Bethancourt will bust out as well.

 

Not saying he is next Arcia, more of a poor mans version but potential is there. The kind of prospects we should be looking at.

Reading the description, does he sound to anyone else besides me like a sort of Venezuelan version of Counsell (as a player)?

[3and2Fastball]

I will miss Krod, I truly enjoyed watching him pitch

 

His 2011 season with the Crew was really memorable, including a 1.86 ERA with Milwaukee in the regular season that year. The 1-2 punch with Axford that year really shortened games and in some ways was a forerunner to the Elite multi-inning bullpens we are seeing nowadays, especially from teams like the Royals.

 

Similar to Trevor Hoffman, it was fun having a famous and legendary closer pitching for the Brewers. K-Rod's 200 ERA+ from years 2004-2008 was certainly one of the best 5 year spans in history, and he has done a great job adjusting his game as he ages.

[1992casey]

Reading the description, does he sound to anyone else besides me like a sort of Venezuelan version of Counsell (as a player)?

Craig was a good hitter outside of lacking power. Javier is coming off a string of 1000-plus ABs where his OBP has barely peeked over .300; you can't find a stretch like that for Counsell. But as others have said, it's probably fair to say that the jury's still out. Maybe Betancourt has Craig Counsell potential.

[3and2Fastball]

Reading the description, does he sound to anyone else besides me like a sort of Venezuelan version of Counsell (as a player)?

Craig was a good hitter outside of lacking power. Javier is coming off a string of 1000-plus ABs where his OBP has barely peeked over .300; you can't find a stretch like that for Counsell. But as others have said, it's probably fair to say that the jury's still out. Maybe Betancourt has Craig Counsell potential.

 

Counsell had the benefit of entering into pro ball after playing college baseball

 

Counsell Age 22 in A+ ball .280/.401/.380

Counsell Age 23 in AA ball .280/.366/.403

 

Counsell is also 6' 180 and had a strong enough arm to play SS in MLB

 

Javi B is closer to Jean Segura's size

 

Segura Age 21 in A+ ball .281/.337/.422

Segura Age 22 in AA ball .304/.358/.413

 

Javi B Age 20 in A+ ball .263/.304/.336

[3and2Fastball]

For perspective, Clint Coulter's numbers last year in the same Florida State league, which nobody seems concerned about since it is a notoriously pitcher friendly league

 

A+ Ball: .246/.329/.397 at age 21

 

Javi B ranked 21st in Batting Average in a league against players mostly a year or three older than him. I'd say that, considering not only his glove but his age, he is more than a "fringe prospect"

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_bat&lid=123&sid=l123

[EauClaireNWL]

I had always liked KRod, but this is a sign Stearns is serious about rebuilding the roster and reloading the farm system. No vet is off the trade block for the right price and we can use some decent IF depth in the minors.

[645]

Gee, Can't you get a prospect back in return that is ranked somewhere in the Top 100?

[logan82]

The offensive numbers aren't impressive, but how much of that is due to his being aggressively promoted remains to be seen.

 

I like that Betancourt's scouting report talks about hitting behind runners, moving from first to third, etc. There's a tendency - at least in my mind - for stats-heavy analysis to lose sight of the situational aspects of baseball. (Offenses are based on the macro-level numbers; runs are scored or not scored on the micro-level.)

Probably because the percent of times it matters are pretty small unless the guy is a pinch hitter. Hooray we traded for a bench bat.

[3and2Fastball]

I think we traded for a potential starting 2B. We are in a pitcher's era, get used to it. The days of putting together starting lineups of Fielder/Weeks/Yuni B that bungle or can't get to ground balls are hopefully long behind us. Pitching & Defense is where it is at. Javi B has a long ways to go but he's got a great glove and this hopefully indicates a change in direction in the Stearns era

[hyerbro1]

I'm not sure what player is Betancourt's best comparison, but he Edgardo Alfonzo's nephew. Bloodlines!

[reillymcshane]

Virtually every scouting report pegs Betancourt's upside as a fringe starter (high side) or utility guy (realistic view). To see anything more than that in him is stretching it.

 

There are boatloads of guys like Betancourt in the minors - guys who teams hope develop some tool that will make them a major leaguer. Javier looks okay, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for his arrival.

[Jenkins5]

Honestly, Stearns was in no rush to trade KRod. He in all likelihood discussed trades for KRod with other teams. I trust the Brewer scouts and if they were high enough on him, I'll hold out hope for a 20 year old about to enter AA. Most kids his age are still grooming themselves in college. Pretty early to peg him as just this or that down the road. This is a kid they wanted in that system.

 

I remember how negitive people acted when we got Barrios for ARam....6 months later he is TH's sleeper candidate to be Brewers closer in 2016. If not he very well could be a big part of the pullpen. He wasn't a top 25 prospect, limited time on mound, limited success, consider a one trick pony who probably wouldn't ever make it or impact the team..... He is showing wrong now.

 

Point don't look at this trade and put ceilings on a 20 year old who held own in a hitters nightmare FSL. Give him some time as a Brewer before we start to label what he will be. Look at Houser, he looked like a throw in almost that wasn't suppose to pitch the way he has since the trade..... All he has done is dominate Biloxi & now AFL while an impressive MLB debut

[StearnsFTW]

I will miss Krod, I truly enjoyed watching him pitch

 

Very possibly my least favorite pitcher to ever watch pitch.

[StearnsFTW]

Gee, Can't you get a prospect back in return that is ranked somewhere in the Top 100?

 

If you trade a better player probably.

[645]

I think we traded for a potential starting 2B. We are in a pitcher's era, get used to it. The days of putting together starting lineups of Fielder/Weeks/Yuni B that bungle or can't get to ground balls are hopefully long behind us. Pitching & Defense is where it is at. Javi B has a long ways to go but he's got a great glove and this hopefully indicates a change in direction in the Stearns era

 

I sure hope not for that is just a clueless direction to be taking the team. Yes, We are in a pitcher's era and what needs to be understand is we have the pitching to be one of the best teams in the league but everyone else does too for pitching is just that deep and for a team like the Brewers they will never field another winning team trying up one on everyone on Pitching and Defense for the depth is just that good that there is little to no room there to gain an advantage.

 

The fact is We are in a pitcher's era and the deference between who wins and who loses is simply who scores for if you don't score you don't win and if you settle for a player hitting .225 because he plays good defense that not going to get anywhere.

 

Kansas City Royals win the World Series, Edinson Volquez (13-9 3.55) was there best starter. They had a good bullpen like everyone else but overall there pitching wasn't anything all that great but they win because they hitters that can hit.

[3and2Fastball]

People need to understand how quickly the game is evolving and how much Sabermetrics were applied in the Royals development of back to back World Series appearances and one World Championship.

 

The Royals correctly built that team on pitching & defense. It doesn't take a sabermetrician to tell you that in most sports, "defense wins championships". The Royals took it a step further though with that incredible bullpen that shortened games. Give them a lead in the 6th inning and the game was essentially over. I think that is a trend that will only continue. The Royals also correctly determined that in a pitching era like we are now in, very athletic players who are high contact hitters are more valuable than the traditional old paradigm saber darlings with a high OBP and high OPS.

 

Thus you have someone like Alex Gordon in LF instead of the traditional lumbering slow 1.000 OPS guy. They had athleticism at 3B & 1B. They had players who jumped on 1st pitch fastballs and "kept the line moving". They didn't get a ton of offense out of their middle infield, although trading for Zobrist really helped as a rental. All of this was determined through analysis by Dayton Moore and his staff.

 

They used Sabermetrics to flip the game, and I love it. We have seen a paradigm shift. No doubt things will shift again sometime soon enough. We may eventually see "starters" who go 3 innings and a succession of relief aces who pitch an inning or two each in innings 4-9. We actually have already seen it: in the All-Star games

[DocLuna7]

I think we traded for a potential starting 2B. We are in a pitcher's era, get used to it. The days of putting together starting lineups of Fielder/Weeks/Yuni B that bungle or can't get to ground balls are hopefully long behind us. Pitching & Defense is where it is at. Javi B has a long ways to go but he's got a great glove and this hopefully indicates a change in direction in the Stearns era

 

FWIW, what you are saying you hope is long behind us was our last playoff team and our first decent chance at a World Championship since 1982. I would not mind having more teams like the 2011 Brewers at any point in the near term.

[reillymcshane]

Pretty early to peg him as just this or that down the road.

Actually, that's exactly what scouts and organizations do with players. They make honest assessments about a player's future so they can best help the major league club down the road.

 

It is, obviously, an inexact process. Teams can't always predict how big or strong a guy will get. Or how he'll process the mental parts of the game - or a million other things. The younger a guy is, the more difficult a projection is. And different people hold see different things in players - again, an inexact process.

 

But there's nothing wrong with saying a player looks like he's going to be this or that down the road. For the organization, it's essential to know what you have in the pipeline. In fact, they're foolish NOT to do these projections. It certainly doesn't mean that won't change - it happens all the time.

[Bombers]

GCL All-Star at 18/19 we had outstanding debut in Venezuela and continued it into his rookie ball season.

 

MWL All-Star at 19

 

Had a solid year at 20 in advanced A.

 

Overall he is turning 21 in AA if they don't repeat him, making him one of the youngest players in AA. He has an advanced bat for age and like Arcia, he doesn't walk or K very much. I'm very optimistic about him. No matter the case, this is a kid Stearns and his staff really wanted and identified as someone to have in our system. He is a high contact kid like Arcia. More often than not, guys who make a lot of contact will hit for average. Moreover, for same reason Arcia doesn't walk a lot, when you have great hand eye coordination and contact skills, you are able to put anything close in play

The bold especially but all of this is where I am at. I am guessing that no one on this board would qualify as a candidate for Stearns, so if his advanced analytics mind wanted him then I wanted him too

[3and2Fastball]

I think we traded for a potential starting 2B. We are in a pitcher's era, get used to it. The days of putting together starting lineups of Fielder/Weeks/Yuni B that bungle or can't get to ground balls are hopefully long behind us. Pitching & Defense is where it is at. Javi B has a long ways to go but he's got a great glove and this hopefully indicates a change in direction in the Stearns era

 

FWIW, what you are saying you hope is long behind us was our last playoff team and our first decent chance at a World Championship since 1982. I would not mind having more teams like the 2011 Brewers at any point in the near term.

 

I understand that very well. However the MLB paradigm has flipped dramatically since then even more towards pitching, defense, and young talent

[LouisEly]

The PTBNL is likely due to the Rule 5 draft in December. Maybe they want a guy who could be picked, but don't want him if they have to use a 40 man spot so have a list of other players in that scenario?

 

Regardless I know this has happened before due to Rule 5 reasons.

I think it has everything to do with the Rule 5 draft coming up. It could be a guy who could be picked, but if Detroit has a low-ranked farm system would they have anyone who is in danger of getting picked? Wouldn't they be able to protect every decent prospect on the 40-man?

 

I think ZBTMP is on to it:

 

return also includes a player to be named.

 

Any particular reason why they'd be a "Named later" in November. On the 40 man?

It could very well be one of Detroit's top prospects, and the Brewers want the Tigers to use a 40-man spot for the Rule 5 draft as well as the next few months until the Brewers can clear another 40-man spot by dealing Lind. This allows the Brewers to get an upper-level prospect from the Tigers as well as nab someone in the Rule 5 draft and have an extra roster spot for up to 6 months.

[CheeseheadInQC]

The PTBNL is likely due to the Rule 5 draft in December. Maybe they want a guy who could be picked, but don't want him if they have to use a 40 man spot so have a list of other players in that scenario?

 

Regardless I know this has happened before due to Rule 5 reasons.

I think it has everything to do with the Rule 5 draft coming up. It could be a guy who could be picked, but if Detroit has a low-ranked farm system would they have anyone who is in danger of getting picked? Wouldn't they be able to protect every decent prospect on the 40-man?

 

I think ZBTMP is on to it:

 

return also includes a player to be named.

 

Any particular reason why they'd be a "Named later" in November. On the 40 man?

It could very well be one of Detroit's top prospects, and the Brewers want the Tigers to use a 40-man spot for the Rule 5 draft as well as the next few months until the Brewers can clear another 40-man spot by dealing Lind. This allows the Brewers to get an upper-level prospect from the Tigers as well as nab someone in the Rule 5 draft and have an extra roster spot for up to 6 months.

 

Unless I'm wrong, that would limit it to Fulmer (I can't see it being Fulmer), Moya or Cessa. Personally I think it is more likely it is just the Brewers being extra careful on someone such as Labourt. They probably don't want to risk assuming someone won't get picked and then having it happen.

[LouisEly]

Why couldn't it be Castellanos, Matt Boyd, or Bruce Rondon? The rules state that it can't be an active major leaguer between the time of the trade and when the player is named, but nobody will be an active major leaguer for the next four months. If the player is on the 40 they only have to clear waivers after the July 31 trade deadline; that doesn't apply in the offseason. Maybe it's one of Castellanos or James McCann, depending on whether the Brewers trade Lucroy this offseason?

 

Just to give everyone here nightmares tonight... a player who was traded for a PTBNL could be the PTBNL. It has happened four times in major league history.

[danzig6767]

Gee, Can't you get a prospect back in return that is ranked somewhere in the Top 100?

Do you think that Detroit is the only team Stearns spoke to about K-Rod being available? If there was a top 50-100 prospect out there for Stearns to grab in return, do you think he decided, i'll pass on that?

 

Stearns had to find a team that

 

1. Needed a closer

 

2. Likely a team considering itself a contender enough and also having the money to where they'd be willing to pay K-Rod money for that closer role next year, along with trading a player/players.

 

3. A team covering the first two above that also thought highly enough of K-Rod.

 

When you start going through each team in baseball to see who might fit those things, the list will shrink to a small number of teams. Plus, even though he's been really effective and last year K-Rod's secondary numbers like WHIP and K/BB were better than his prime years with the Angels, my guess is that some teams out there simply fear his age could lead to decline at any point and would prefer a gas throwing closer vs how he gets guys out mostly by an elite changeup even though his fastball sits in that 89-90mph range.