Lind, Lucroy, K-Rod available (as per Olney)

[jerichoholicninja]

What is the problem? Are teams afraid he's going to have more issues in the future or because of the issues of the past? Ray Rice and Greg Hardy are talked about all the time. I have never heard anything about KRod's situation (other than here) since it happened. And even then it was barely even mentioned and it was weeks after it happened.

[markedman5]

@AdamMcCalvy: Brewers' David Stearns went to the GM Meetings hoping to build on active trade talks: https://t.co/rpmWRnXjbO

[MrTPlush]

What is the problem? Are teams afraid he's going to have more issues in the future or because of the issues of the past? Ray Rice and Greg Hardy are talked about all the time. I have never heard anything about KRod's situation (other than here) since it happened. And even then it was barely even mentioned and it was weeks after it happened.

 

Agreed, this issue is extremely overblown. I never hear about this, but you know what I do hear about? How his stuff isn't amazing(no love from scouts) and his contract is not that good. Who is interested in a closer getting paid market value, is old, and doesn't have good stuff? Yup...crickets.

 

Seriously I can't imagine anyone cares about the domestic violence stuff. It was barely reported when it happened and no one cared then. I doubt the world is going to explode the second he gets traded elsewhere.

 

And the most major piece of evidence that literally no one cares is the fact we have ALREADY TRADED him with this domestic violence issue over him. Has everyone forgotten we traded him back in 2013 after the incident in the 2012 off season? But now three years later we are going to lose our minds over it? It wasn't even mentioned then! I only saw it as an informational tidbit on how the Brewers let him go, but changed their minds to give him the minor league deal.

 

Why this is even still debatable I will never know.

[Jenkins5]

http://nypost.com/2015/11/09/sizing-up-the-market-for-top-reliever-slugging-catcher/

 

Do the O's have anywhere close to enough to bring in Lucroy?

 

Honestly to me it would take one of the injuried "untouchables" Harvey or Bundy and include Jomar Reyes and Chance Sisco. Their system is not loaded by any means.

 

Reyes and Sisco are really the two I would want the most. Harvey/Bundy are boom or bust top notch prospects with long injury lists. Givens would be a good piece to add to the bullpen. Christian Walker is a very good hitter and could be a solid everyday 1st baseman (but thought that about Hunter Morris as well), Trey Mancini is another guy who I wouldn't mind. Tanner Scott and Jonah Heim would be my last guys I like. Overall if they lose Weiters, they are going to have to empty out their system pretty good for Lucroy. They have 2 catchers I think have a MLB future possibly. 2 1B as well. 1 young 1b/3b possible MLB star. Then some decent arms to throw in.

[trwi7]

With the injury issues of Harvey and Bundy, it would take both of them for me to part with Lucroy plus other prospects. I don't think the O's have the pieces for him.

[monty57]

What is the problem? Are teams afraid he's going to have more issues in the future or because of the issues of the past? Ray Rice and Greg Hardy are talked about all the time. I have never heard anything about KRod's situation (other than here) since it happened. And even then it was barely even mentioned and it was weeks after it happened.

 

Agreed, this issue is extremely overblown. I never hear about this, but you know what I do hear about? How his stuff isn't amazing(no love from scouts) and his contract is not that good. Who is interested in a closer getting paid market value, is old, and doesn't have good stuff? Yup...crickets.

 

Seriously I can't imagine anyone cares about the domestic violence stuff. It was barely reported when it happened and no one cared then. I doubt the world is going to explode the second he gets traded elsewhere.

 

And the most major piece of evidence that literally no one cares is the fact we have ALREADY TRADED him with this domestic violence issue over him. Has everyone forgotten we traded him back in 2013 after the incident in the 2012 off season? But now three years later we are going to lose our minds over it? It wasn't even mentioned then! I only saw it as an informational tidbit on how the Brewers let him go, but changed their minds to give him the minor league deal.

 

Why this is even still debatable I will never know.

 

It may or may not be a reason someone would not trade for him, but the reason it may be an issue now when it wasn't a big deal in 2013 is that the Ray Rice "incident" was in 2014, and caused domestic violence to become a hot button issue in professional sports.

 

I guess we'll see what type of backlash comes from Jose Reyes' domestic violence arrest. If it is nearly as big as Ray Rice, then K-Rod's value will probably decline.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/jose-reyes-arrested-domestic-abuse-allegation-report-article-1.2428810

[MrTPlush]

The problem is the Ray Rice incident had video that was leaked to the world. It is a major reason and possibly the only reason it became such a massive deal. Before that he was looking at what, a one game suspension or something outlandish?

 

Another problem is the K-Rod incident never played out because his girlfriend left the country and everything was just dropped after that. Not a whole lot was ever released about it and he was never charged for it.

[monty57]

I have no argument with anything you said Plush. There may be a GM/owner with morals who won't trade for him or other people with questionable character, but for the most part in professional sports not much matters except whether the person can play... until someone shines a light on it, and then it's a big deal for a short period before it stops mattering again. The only thing that would stop this practice would be for people to stop buying tickets, and that's not very likely.

 

Moral character aside, I hope the Brewers are able to trade K-Rod for something this offseason because they don't need a "proven closer" in a rebuild year. They're better off trading him for a promising prospect while allowing Jeffress to get some saves and attain the title "proven closer" to up his future value.

[MrTPlush]

Regardless of what people think of him and regardless of what we get back as long as we are shedding the full contract there is no reason to go into the season with him on the roster. Shedding the money alone is a job well done. If we have him going into the season and something bad happens we are stuck with at least $10mil and possibly more is we opt to pick up the 2017 option.

 

No reason to even consider not just taking an offer for salary dump sake.

[MNBrew]

I don't get this pervasive notion that the Brewers have to get rid of any large-salary players. Rooting for them to move established players is a whole different thought process and emotion, and it has certain merits. However, that's way different than legit financial need. And since Stearns has already said he favors a blend of veterans and young players, to hope for a total sell-off/teardown seems quite unrealistic.

 

The Brewers don't have to get rid of anything and there's no reason to dump a player with value just to shed his contract at this point. That's simply myopic and absurd. I believe I read recently that they currently project to a $70-$75M Opening Day payroll based on the current roster, arbitration projections, etc. That's already a $25-$30M payroll drop from 2015. Between 2.5M in attendance and MLB's revenue sharing, the Brewers are in respectable shape financially. This isn't the mid-'90s Brewers.

 

Keeping any players on large contracts in the midst of a rebuild goes counter to the trendy or stereotypical patterns of such situations, but that approach is far from a universal truth or an essential Brewers need. There's no need to shed another $10-$20M just for the sake of doing so.

[3and2Fastball]

I don't get this pervasive notion that the Brewers have to get rid of any large-salary players. Rooting for them to move established players is a whole different thought process and emotion, and it has certain merits. However, that's way different than legit financial need. And since Stearns has already said he favors a blend of veterans and young players, to hope for a total sell-off/teardown seems quite unrealistic.

 

The Brewers don't have to get rid of anything and there's no reason to dump a player with value just to shed his contract at this point. That's simply myopic and absurd. .

 

Holding onto a player who is very unlikely to be a key part of the lineup in 2018 (when they could realistically contend again) is just rolling the dice on them getting hurt or going into a steep decline and damaging their trade value.

 

Trading players for prospects does seem like the smart thing to do

[logan82]

I don't get this pervasive notion that the Brewers have to get rid of any large-salary players. Rooting for them to move established players is a whole different thought process and emotion, and it has certain merits. However, that's way different than legit financial need. And since Stearns has already said he favors a blend of veterans and young players, to hope for a total sell-off/teardown seems quite unrealistic.

 

The Brewers don't have to get rid of anything and there's no reason to dump a player with value just to shed his contract at this point. That's simply myopic and absurd. I believe I read recently that they currently project to a $70-$75M Opening Day payroll based on the current roster, arbitration projections, etc. That's already a $25-$30M payroll drop from 2015. Between 2.5M in attendance and MLB's revenue sharing, the Brewers are in respectable shape financially. This isn't the mid-'90s Brewers.

 

Keeping any players on large contracts in the midst of a rebuild goes counter to the trendy or stereotypical patterns of such situations, but that approach is far from a universal truth or an essential Brewers need. There's no need to shed another $10-$20M just for the sake of doing so.

I am not sure anyone really wants to get rid of players because of money. It's about concentrating our talent. We can't contend for a couple years so we trade everyone who will not be here to get younger talent that will be around when we can contend. The last few years our talent was spread out over all the levels of the organization. The MLB team was bad so it made a lot of sense to get younger and start building up a good bubble of talent in the minors. We have done that a little bit but I am not sure it is enough yet. Lind, Lucroy and K-Rod are probably our best trade assets and will more than likely not be around or will be old(in Lucroy's case) when we are good again.

[bill hAll Star]

Also, when you get rid of productive players like Lind, Lucroy, or K-Rod for prospects, you could replace their salary with buy low players right now or shrewd, younger contracts that are a bit more costly in the 2017ish area. Win-win. Get your prospects for current assets and add some later.

 

Also, if Lind, K-Rod, and Luc are gone, you can start eating salary for assets. Maybe somebody is dying to get rid of their Bronson Arroyo (last year) contract. Sure, we'll take him if you give us a prospect.

 

To add, you can mix vets/young players when we compete again in 2018. It's why I keep reiterating that I don't care about filling the 3B or C voids right this very second. If we still don't have a 3B prospect ready in 2018 - payroll could be down at $50 million. Go out and buy somebody's overpaid, yet still productive 3B. Look at the Cubs. They have their baby boom but they still went out and got Montero, had Coghlan develop as a buy-low player, Fowler isn't extremely young, older pitchers, etc. Payroll will be so low when you build organically through the minors, that you can overspend on some FAs or trade targets to fill your holes.

 

Looking to the extreme long-term build, let's say we have a Cubs-esque crop of players coming up in 2018. Those guys will all have to get paid in 2022ish-2024 through higher arby (pending FA buyout deals). If you're smart, you trade a handful away as a smaller market and keep stocking the minors but keep a few that you want. You'll have a continuous cycle of mix of vets/young players.

 

There is just no point of holding your assets as you go into this rebuild. Sell them off. If not, you're just wasting a year or two (and value) like the Phillies did. It will just take that much longer until you are ready to contend again.

[MNBrew]

Regardless of what people think of him and regardless of what we get back as long as we are shedding the full contract there is no reason to go into the season with him on the roster. Shedding the money alone is a job well done. If we have him going into the season and something bad happens we are stuck with at least $10mil and possibly more is we opt to pick up the 2017 option.

 

No reason to even consider not just taking an offer for salary dump sake.

Thanks for the multiple answers to my previous post.... Sorry, I should've been clearer. I get the logic of turnover, competitive windows, and future flexibility. There have been multiple posts like the highlighted portion of the one above that continue to suggest that the Brewers need to get rid of salary -- or at least that it may well be in their best interests to do so -- when in reality there's no need to dump salary. We're not the Marlins or in any kind of tough financial straits. The Brewers will have plenty of flexibility and the young guys already surfacing in the bigs are helping create intrigue about the Brewers and their future path, so fan interest remains good in spite of the crappy results last year and attendance isn't in any peril of sinking to Tampa Bay levels. . . . and if it were to sink that low, there will be at least a decent degree more revenue sharing $$ coming their way to ease any fiscal pinch.

[reillymcshane]

One note I saw on Fangraphs from Dave Cameron was that if Milwaukee is interested in dealing Lucroy, the offseason is probably the most likely time. The reason is that teams put a high value on having their catchers working with the staff all year - as opposed to coming in mid-season.

 

I did a quick check and found that only five catchers have been dealt over the last five years during the season (minimum of 300 plate appearances) - Welington Castillo, A.J. Pierzynski, Kurt Suzuki, John Buck and Geovany Soto. None of these guys is in the category of a Lucroy. They were strictly backups or part-time guys, at times basic salary dumps at the end of a contract.

 

Thus, no top flight catcher has been dealt mid-season during the last five years (it could be longer - I didn't go past five years). Part of that reason is probably that few quality catchers have been made available - but as noted, it's also likely influenced by the fact incorporating a catcher into a team is a little complex than during the offseason.

 

Just something to think about.

[BrewBalls]

One note I saw on Fangraphs from Dave Cameron was that if Milwaukee is interested in dealing Lucroy, the offseason is probably the most likely time. The reason is that teams put a high value on having their catchers working with the staff all year - as opposed to coming in mid-season.

 

I did a quick check and found that only five catchers have been dealt over the last five years during the season (minimum of 300 plate appearances) - Welington Castillo, A.J. Pierzynski, Kurt Suzuki, John Buck and Geovany Soto. None of these guys is in the category of a Lucroy. They were strictly backups or part-time guys, at times basic salary dumps at the end of a contract.

 

Thus, no top flight catcher has been dealt mid-season during the last five years (it could be longer - I didn't go past five years). Part of that reason is probably that few quality catchers have been made available - but as noted, it's also likely influenced by the fact incorporating a catcher into a team is a little complex than during the offseason.

 

Just something to think about.

Great point Reilly. I truly feel this offseason is the best time to trade Lucroy if you are looking to receive multiple impact players in return. He should warrant a high ceiling pitching prospect, a high minors corner infielder or catcher who projects to be at minimum a serviceable starter in the majors and another high risk/high reward player who is a ways away from contributing.

[jerichoholicninja]

Not disagreeing but Piazza was dealt twice mid season. Paul LoDuca, Ivan Rodriguez, Charles Johnson all dealt midseason but they weren't quite Lucroy level at the time. I think the best time to trade Lucroy is this offseason anyway. Yes, he's coming off a down year but he's had a few injuries and with the concussion now I think it's best to cash him in now and not risk further injury. All it takes in a foul tip off the mask in spring training and he could be done for the year or longer. Could he play his way into a better return during the season? Absolutely, but I think it's more likely something happens to him that lowers his value.

[MrTPlush]

Regardless of what people think of him and regardless of what we get back as long as we are shedding the full contract there is no reason to go into the season with him on the roster. Shedding the money alone is a job well done. If we have him going into the season and something bad happens we are stuck with at least $10mil and possibly more is we opt to pick up the 2017 option.

 

No reason to even consider not just taking an offer for salary dump sake.

Thanks for the multiple answers to my previous post.... Sorry, I should've been clearer. I get the logic of turnover, competitive windows, and future flexibility. There have been multiple posts like the highlighted portion of the one above that continue to suggest that the Brewers need to get rid of salary -- or at least that it may well be in their best interests to do so -- when in reality there's no need to dump salary. We're not the Marlins or in any kind of tough financial straits. The Brewers will have plenty of flexibility and the young guys already surfacing in the bigs are helping create intrigue about the Brewers and their future path, so fan interest remains good in spite of the crappy results last year and attendance isn't in any peril of sinking to Tampa Bay levels. . . . and if it were to sink that low, there will be at least a decent degree more revenue sharing $$ coming their way to ease any fiscal pinch.

 

I am not saying lets shed all salary. I am not saying we need to get rid of a guy like Braun at all costs to shed salary.

 

However, when I look at K-Rod is see little to no way he increases value at this point. So what we have here is a pretty expensive player at peak value that is no part of the future. There is no need in my mind to hold onto him. It is money we need to shed because he offers nothing positive to the future. However he could add a lot of negative value with a bad year or an injury. It isn't like he is Jean Segura who is arguably not even the $3mil he will get this year. At least with Segura there is some kind of reason or upside to hold onto him.

 

Sure we don't need to trade him to not go broke, but why is that a reason to just throw away money by keeping him?

[MNBrew]

It can totally kill the psyche of a team -- especially a mostly-young team -- to have incompetence blow a slew of 9th inning leads -- all the more so when 9th inning leads are a whole lot more tough to come by than they've been over the past decade. And we're sure looking to be a mostly-young team. . . . When you're teaching a large number of young players to win together in the majors & when you're working hard to build the foundation of a culture of winning, it risks being totally contradictory to that aim to leave the 9th inning to guys that don't have anything near the experience -- let alone the success -- K-Rod has.

 

I get what you're saying: Big-buck closers are SO much a thing of the 2000's, not the 2010's, let alone something that will likely net a large return of prospects, so K-Rod likely does us little good in terms of keeping on the roster because he could eventually be swapped for multiple valuable young assets. . . . I get the logic, but I disagree that that's the only logical way to proceed. IF K-Rod continues to prove he's productive and an upper-eschelon closer, there's no guarantee he's not still around as the closer in 3-4 years even though that would defy most trends and conventional thinking.

[bill hAll Star]

I don't necessarily agree with that theory, but it's not a terrible idea and most teams tend to feel they need that. In which case, trade K-Rod with high stock, buy low on an experienced player like the Cubs did with Kevin Gregg or the Astros did with Brandon Lyon.

[reillymcshane]

Matt Wieters accepting the qualifying offer from Baltimore should make Lucroy even more attractive to teams looking to add a top flight catcher. Even with his off year, someone will pay a lot for Luc. Will it be enough is the other question - but it's fun to speculate.

[MrTPlush]

Matt Wieters accepting the qualifying offer from Baltimore should make Lucroy even more attractive to teams looking to add a top flight catcher. Even with his off year, someone will pay a lot for Luc. Will it be enough is the other question - but it's fun to speculate.

 

Part of the reason Matt Weiters took that offer was the lack of need for a catcher from teams around baseball. It still helps Jonathan Lucroy's case, but still poses the same issue. Not to mention you have to find a team with the prospects to do it. Though Weiters has pretty big health concerns on how much he can truly catch which Lucroy doesn't have persay.

[reillymcshane]

Matt Wieters accepting the qualifying offer from Baltimore should make Lucroy even more attractive to teams looking to add a top flight catcher. Even with his off year, someone will pay a lot for Luc. Will it be enough is the other question - but it's fun to speculate.

 

Part of the reason Matt Weiters took that offer was the lack of need for a catcher from teams around baseball. It still helps Jonathan Lucroy's case, but still poses the same issue. Not to mention you have to find a team with the prospects to do it. Though Weiters has pretty big health concerns on how much he can truly catch which Lucroy doesn't have persay.

I'd peg the following teams as potentially having interest in Lucroy:

 

Minnesota (good fit - Minnesota has some nice prospects - they don't like to deal them, however)

Texas (supposedly looking to upgrade catcher position, matter of finding the right return)

Nationals (like Texas, they want to upgrade, so it's a matter of what they have to give in return)

Seattle (definate need, but getting what we wanted would be tough due to a mediocre system)

Angels (depleted farm system would make matching up difficult)

ChiSox - (bad catchers, weak farm system isn't a good mix)

Tampa (bad catchers - could definitley use Lucroy, but would they be willing to cough up what we want. Luc's low salary would fit their limitations.)

ChiCubs (Montero is set, but he's not anything great anymore. Dealing within division isn't ideal.)

Detroit - (have a young catcher who did okay last year - don't know much about him)

Atlanta (probably too much in the rebuilding phase, but they have reportedly been interested in the past)

Houston (catchers are probably passable - lots of other holes to fill instead).

 

I'm sure a few others would be interested if the price is right, but the price will likely be high.

 

I should also note that I don't really know minor league catchers, so maybe some of the above teams have a guy ready to step in. Not sure.

 

The perfect team is probably a club with playoff aspirations, a weak catcher situation (duh), and a good farm system. Not the easiest thing to find, but there are a few clubs that fit the mold. Also, some of the teams with lesser systems might be able to work a 3rd team into the trade to get what we want.

 

In the end, there aren't any really good catchers available - so Luc is pretty attractive. There are a number of teams that could really use him - teams that can pay the price as well. It'll be tough, but you never know.

[MrTPlush]

I actually think the White Sox might be the top landing spot. It is a team desperate to win, but probably not big FA players after last offseason. A deal for either Carlos Rodon or Carson Fulmer would have to be pretty attractive for the Brewers. I think they have the complementing pieces too.

[Bnowell4evr]

The Rays are really the perfect match on paper. They have the need and the prospects to get a deal done. It's just a matter of how competitive they think they can be?