Ash to remain with club as advisor, pro scout

[1992casey]

I think it's a stretch to present the list in a way that implies that Wade Davis and Josh Donaldson could be part of a Brewers nucleus. It might have been better to leave Jake Odorizzi and Brett Lawrie on the list and evaluate that way.

[Thurston Fluff]

Your "nucleus of a sustainable great team" seems to lack starting pitching. Unless you advocate trading future assets for it, to supplement your nucleus which sounds familiar for some reason.

 

Yes they would have had to acquire more pitching, similar to the Royals, in order to make it work. Evidently Odorizzi plus an Outfield talent (Gomez maybe) equaled Shields & Wade Davis. They certainly would have enough money from not having to pay Aramis Ramirez and K-Rod that they could have signed a better pitcher than Garza.

 

I don't have all the answers, and I recognize that hindsight is 20/20. I do know that if you look at the Brewers & Royals franchises in the moments prior to the Greinke trade, one team really got things right since then and one team, over & over again, really didn't.

 

And, in terms of this thread, I see Gord Ash as a significant part of the Brewers front office that handled their window with incredible ineptitude (Betancourt? Really?!)

 

Cain's a great player, but with Morgan, Gomez, Braun, Hart, Aoki his opportunities in Milwaukee would have been limited.

 

Cain is a much much better player than all of them right now and in the 2015 season (and only someone wearing "Brewers Goggles" will say Braun is better than Cain when you factor in defense, baserunning & durability). And Cain has been a a much better player than all of them over time except Braun. I mean, c'mon now really? Aoki? Hart? Morgan? Those guys are garbage compared to Cain. The Brewers failure to recognize that kind of thing doomed them. The Brewers' failure to emphasize defense over the last bunch of years has also doomed them. I will, however, be reasonably assured that the Brewers knew how talented Cain & Escobar were and just were so single-mindedly focused on getting Greinke that they gave up the future for the 2+ years of Greinke (the "+" being Segura, Hellweg etc)

 

I don't think it takes Brewers Goggles to think Corey Hart's career OPS of 806 is superior to Cain's 754. In fact given this is Cain's first season with an OPS above Hart's career average I'd say Cain has a way to go for his career to be as productive as Hart's was. While I think Cain was a better defender than Hart I don't think it was so much superior to make up for 50 points of OPS.

[MrTPlush]

Escobar--below average shortstop that only Yost would bat leadoff with his .293 OBP (and luck into him having the greatest two weeks of his life during the post season)

Cain--never would have done anything in Milwaukee. As a 27 year old he has a wRC+ of 80. He never would have gotten playing time over Gonzalez Braun or Davis.

Davis--if the Brewers would have traded two more than solid prospects for a reliever this board would have melted down.

.

 

 

That kind of thinking is exactly why the Brewers have had 1 World Series appearance in the last 33 seasons, and the Royals are World Champs.

 

"Gord where the hell is my chocolate chip scone?" Melvin

[MrTPlush]

I think it's a stretch to present the list in a way that implies that Wade Davis and Josh Donaldson could be part of a Brewers nucleus. It might have been better to leave Jake Odorizzi and Brett Lawrie on the list and evaluate that way.

 

Yes, but that would defeat the purpose and basis of his argument.

[3and2Fastball]

I think it's a stretch to present the list in a way that implies that Wade Davis and Josh Donaldson could be part of a Brewers nucleus. It might have been better to leave Jake Odorizzi and Brett Lawrie on the list and evaluate that way.

 

Agreed. That said we can now see (as oppose to theorize on) the type of value Odorizzi & Lawrie could have had in a trade if held on to longer

[dlk9s]

Honestly, who cares about the Greinke trade? The goal of a trade is not to fleece the other team. Greinke was (and still is) an all-world starting pitcher and was a major reason why the Brewers had a great season a few years ago and came really close to reaching the World Series. The Brewers knew they had a chance to make a run, so they made the trade to try to put themselves over the top.

 

I was sorry to see Cain go at the time. I had a hunch he was going to be really good. But I also understood that the Brewers had to give up some prospects to get Greinke (oh, and Yuni). That's just the way it works. I don't care about losing Escobar - he's a perfectly decent player, but nothing special. Jeffress wasn't anything at all and we got him back. Odorizzi might turn out to be very good, but again, if you're going out to get a badass pitcher, you have to give something up.

 

You can argue if the Brewers NEEDED to make the trade, but the trade itself was fine.

[And That]

Honestly, who cares about the Greinke trade?

 

Well...

 

(oh, and Yuni)

 

Nailed it - that's why I care. Yuni took years off of my life.

[trwi7]

The goal of a trade is not to fleece the other team.

 

Why? The goal is to strengthen your team as much as possible. That would mean you want to fleece other teams.

[dlk9s]

A good negotiator in no way tries to rip off the other party.

[trwi7]

A good negotiator in no way tries to rip off the other party.

 

I'm not saying be impossible to negotiate with but a GM isn't doing their job if they aren't trying to extract the most value possible in a trade, whether that be trying to get an extra player added without giving another player up or just insisting on one player over another player which could lead to ripping off another GM.

 

I don't like it when a GM tries to make "fair value" trades. Don't do something like we'll give you Martin Maldonado for Lucas Giolito and Bryce Harper but there's no reason not to negotiate for as much value as you can even if you feel like you're ripping the other team off. There's a chance that they might agree to it and if they do, you've improved your organization. It hurts the other team but that's not your problem.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think it's more semantics than anything. If the goal is to get the best deal for your team then the goal is not to rip off the other team by definition. That said, it also means not ripping off the other team should be of no concern in making a trade.

[Dragonbait]

It comes down to human nature. If you feel ripped off by someone, you'd be less inclined to deal with them again.

[jerichoholicninja]

It comes down to human nature. If you feel ripped off by someone, you'd be less inclined to deal with them again.

 

Both teams agree to a deal. If the acquired players fail, it's not the other GM's fault.

[LouisEly]

If the other GM isn't completely forthcoming about injures, personal conduct/habits, etc., then it is the other GM's fault. Doctors, medical records, and physical exams may not catch everything, and players may not tell their doctors everything (especially if a lot of money is on the line). If there is knowledge of recreational/dangerous drug use (illegal or legal, such as alcoholism - Gallardo's DWI comes to mind) or immature behavior/attitude issues (Brett Lawrie comes to mind) and it is not fully disclosed, that's a problem.

 

I think by "fleecing", some are referring to post-trade performance and some are referring to unfair business dealings.

[trwi7]

I think by "fleecing", some are referring to post-trade performance and some are referring to unfair business dealings.

 

I'm not really talking about that. More like being a tough negotiator. Not being a complete ass and saying we won't deal with you if you don't include these players but trying to extract as much value in a trade as you possibly can. I don't think a GM is doing their job if they don't try to do that. Whether that be another player, getting another team to pay some of a player's contract so you have more money to upgrade elsewhere or whatever the case may be.

[LouisEly]

Once you get to that level, I don't think you're going to have a big variance in the negotiation skills of GMs. The variance is going to be in the owners desire to win now, how much the owner is "meddling", what particular skills the GMs value, and the "eye" of the scouts.

 

It's easier now to have more video and data on players than years past. However, the "X" factor is going to be that players clubhouse presence/impact, practice habits, and off-field behavior/habits, stuff that isn't captured on video or easily seen by scouts.

 

Ironically, DM was known for trying to get that extra "nugget" in the trade (in the case of Mench, he got royally roasted by some around here). Often times you get that extra nugget by being friendly/open/honest/fair, and not being a hard-arsed negotiator.