Brewers Have Their New Pitching Coach - Cubs' Minor League Pitching Coordinator Derek Johnson

[1992casey]

Upside down and backwards? I get backwards, but upside down seems weird.

 

Anyway, I'm not concerned about the type of experience a coach has. Certainly, I don't see pitching in the Majors as a requirement. George Bamberger was one of the best (if not the best) pitching coach of his era, and he pitched a total of 8⅓ major league innings.

 

The difference here is that it doesn't appear that Johnson has pitched professionally at all. I won't pretend to know if there's a risk to that. But this is a good time in the Brewers' development cycle to find out.

 

By the way, if you want to read Johnson's book, here's a link:

 

The Complete Guide to Pitching

[jerichoholicninja]

[sarcasm]Fun Fact of the Day:

 

All people who have years of experience and are really good at something have always and in perpetuity had that amount of experience. At no point have they ever had zero experience.[/sarcasm]

[DHonks]

so far I like what I'm hearing about Johnson's view of things.

[Invader3K]

He sounds decent, and probably a good "poach" from a rival club. That said, it seems like we always get excited whenever the Brewers bring in a new pitching coach, and then things don't really work out. Let's hope it's different this time.

[gregmag]

I know if I'm an experienced major league pitcher, I'm more inclined to listen to advice from a guy who's had major league experience. I thought that was a weakness of Kranitz. Personally, I think Lee Tunnell deserved the pitching coach job for what he's done with a hodge podge Brewer bullpen the last several years. Look Johnson has a great resume for teaching pitching. But major league pitchers for the most part have doctorates in the art or they wouldn't be in the major leagues.

Two things.

 

First, you contradict yourself. You aren't an experienced major league pitcher. Therefore, by your own logic, you have no credible basis for speculating about whom an experienced major league pitcher would or wouldn't listen to.

 

Second, and more important, your "doctorate" metaphor IMHO misses the mark in an important way. Doing a thing well and teaching it well, or effectively managing or counseling people who do it, are very different propositions. Teaching is a skill. Managing and counseling are skills. Most people don't have those skills. You have to understand the thing you're teaching, and certainly having done the thing at a high level is one way to gain that understanding. But it's not the only way, and it has nothing to do with imparting the other, independent skills you need to do your job well.

[markedman5]

Arguably the best coach in the NBA never played 1 minute of NBA basketball.......Gregg Popovich

[Jenkins5]

Arguably the best coach in the NBA never played 1 minute of NBA basketball.......Gregg Popovich

 

Only 6 NFL Head Coaches ever played professionally (2014) but forget McCarthy & Billichick, I wouldn't respect them at all as a player on their team!....what do they know? They never played pro ball! They didn't even play D-1 college football! Scrubs.....

 

Same could be said for countless NBA coaches who have proven to pretty darn good.

 

Playing the game professionally, at the college level, or even high school level doesn't matter one bit. Todd Hailey is a pretty good offensive coordinator in the NFL and he has never once in his whole life played a game of tackle football, he was a golfer. If a guy is smart, knows the game, and most important able to communicate and teach the game to others, they will be just fine. Playing professionally only gives you stories to tell or instant credibility based on your playing career, which can be a mistake. Means absolutely nothing for their success and it is foolish to think so. Just because a player was blessed with a natural ability to play the game, doesn't mean he will be the best choice to teach and coach the game to others.

[superfly]

Imagine that...Brewers make a move and the armchairs immediately say it's wrong. You folks don't know the slightest thing about this guy, so maybe leave it up to the big boys to make the decision as to whether he'd be a good coach? Seems like the smart thing to do to me.

[MNBrew]

There would be the same degree of discontent, just from a different perspective, if they'd hired a guy with major league coaching experience.

 

That got me thinking on a tangent... The Brewers are, if nothing else, extremely willing to hire managers with no major league track record. Before Ken Macha, and not counting post-Garner interim Jim Lefebrve, you have to go back to the mid-'80s to find the last times the Brewers hired a manager with big league managing experience (Rene Lachemann & George Bamberger v2.0). In the meantime, the following guys -- all with NO MLB managerial experience -- have been hired to manage the Brewers since then:

 

Tom Trebelhorn

Phil Garner

Davey Lopes

Jerry Royster

Ned Yost

Dale Sveum

Ron Roenicke

Craig Counsell

[QuevedosTongue]

There would be the same degree of discontent, just from a different perspective, if they'd hired a guy with major league coaching experience.

 

That got me thinking on a tangent... The Brewers are, if nothing else, extremely willing to hire managers with no major league track record. Before Ken Macha, and not counting post-Garner interim Jim Lefebrve, you have to go back to the mid-'80s to find the last times the Brewers hired a manager with big league managing experience (Rene Lachemann & George Bamberger v2.0). In the meantime, the following guys have managed the Brewers since then:

 

Tom Trebelhorn

Phil Garner

Davey Lopes

Jerry Royster

Ned Yost

Dale Sveum

Ron Roenicke

Craig Counsell

 

 

The middle part of this list makes me want to cry. And I firmly believe that Ned Yost managing his way to a World Series is a sign of the end times. Have you seen what's happening with the weather since this happened?

[Mass Haas]

Brewers' job came 'out of nowhere' for U High grad Johnson

[LouisEly]

Well, here we are at the middle of August. Another poster questioned this move early this year and the thread got quickly locked, but where are we now?

 

Jungmann and Peralta majorly regressed and got sent down. Nelson's peripherals are almost all worse. Anderson's K's are up but everything else worse than last year. Guerra was pitching great but now on the DL. Davies pretty much the same. Garza has been up and down since coming off the DL but better since the All-Star break.

 

Have we gained anything here? (And can we have a civil discussion about it?)

[logan82]

Well, here we are at the middle of August. Another poster questioned this move early this year and the thread got quickly locked, but where are we now?

 

Jungmann and Peralta majorly regressed and got sent down. Nelson's peripherals are almost all worse. Anderson's K's are up but everything else worse than last year. Guerra was pitching great but now on the DL. Davies pretty much the same. Garza has been up and down since coming off the DL but better since the All-Star break.

 

Have we gained anything here? (And can we have a civil discussion about it?)

How early in the year? Talk about making changes to the coaching staff early in the year is usually a bad idea not really worth discussing.

[jerichoholicninja]

Well, here we are at the middle of August. Another poster questioned this move early this year and the thread got quickly locked, but where are we now?

 

Jungmann and Peralta majorly regressed and got sent down. Nelson's peripherals are almost all worse. Anderson's K's are up but everything else worse than last year. Guerra was pitching great but now on the DL. Davies pretty much the same. Garza has been up and down since coming off the DL but better since the All-Star break.

 

Have we gained anything here? (And can we have a civil discussion about it?)

How early in the year? Talk about making changes to the coaching staff early in the year is usually a bad idea not really worth discussing.

 

It was Briggs and after about 3 weeks into the season he started it.

 

I don't know what sort of an effect DJ is actually having on the rotation but after our pitching's horrible start to the year it hasn't been that bad since. Rock made a comment during a game a couple months ago that Johnson preaches pitching inside and it took some time for the pitchers to get used to it. Maybe that's the reason for the bad start or it was Rock was just talking out of his butt.

 

Most assumed Jungmann was pitching way over his head last year and Peralta's fall started well before Johnson even got here. Anderson's been a disappoint to me. I had him on my fantasy team last year and his overall numbers didn't look great because he got lit up real bad in 3 or 4 starts in a row, otherwise he was a 7 innings, 3 runs, 7 k's a game pitcher. Guerra's success probably falls more on the scouts that found him than a coach. Same more or less with Davies and Garza I'm sure doesn't listen to anything DJ says anyway.

 

The thing about coaches is that fans don't get to see what separates the good ones from the bad ones. We don't get to sit in on the bullpen sessions and meetings in which they actually do their job. Unless there's a drastic change is results we know nothing about how well they're doing their job. The thing I like about DJ from his interviews and things I've read about him is that he actually has a philosophy and a gameplan. I think most pitching coaches only contribute cliches like keep the ball down and keep your front should closed. That being said I think his best role for the organization would be that of a minor league pitching coordinator. Our pitching development sucks. And that's putting it nicely. His college coaching experience would be invaluable working with guys in the lower minors and getting them right before they get to Milwaukee instead of trying to fix them once they get here.

[Roderick]

Most assumed Jungmann was pitching way over his head last year and Peralta's fall started well before Johnson even got here. Anderson's been a disappoint to me. I had him on my fantasy team last year and his overall numbers didn't look great because he got lit up real bad in 3 or 4 starts in a row, otherwise he was a 7 innings, 3 runs, 7 k's a game pitcher. Guerra's success probably falls more on the scouts that found him than a coach. Same more or less with Davies and Garza I'm sure doesn't listen to anything DJ says anyway.

 

I agree with everything above, Jungmann and Peralta not being Johnson fault, Guerra and Davies are not his success (up till injury), Garza is Garza.

 

I was thinking that Anderson could just be park effect coming from the west division parks, so took a look, and his home era is 4 and road is 6, but exactly the same whip and average allowed. So not really a park effect to blame, still would obviously be better pitching in Los Angeles, etc. I did think we were trading for his best, prime year this year and would get a 3.75 type era performance.

 

What would be really nice to know is what Nelson is. Is he the pitcher from the end of June through July or the guy since that? Or he just going to be up and down and end up around a 4.00 era type of guy a majority of his career?

 

It would be nice if Johnson can work some magic with Anderson and Nelson.

[hurricanecrush]

I don't have evidence to back it up but it "feels" like we're attacking hitters more this year than we since Maddux left, rather than nibbling so much. It always felt like in recent years we'd start out 0-2 and inevitably end up in a full count. Seemed like we had way higher pitch counts in the early innings in past years but maybe that's just because Gallardo is gone.

 

I'm curious to see what the stats would say but I wouldn't know where to start looking.

[dacbrewers]

Most assumed Jungmann was pitching way over his head last year and Peralta's fall started well before Johnson even got here. Anderson's been a disappoint to me. I had him on my fantasy team last year and his overall numbers didn't look great because he got lit up real bad in 3 or 4 starts in a row, otherwise he was a 7 innings, 3 runs, 7 k's a game pitcher. Guerra's success probably falls more on the scouts that found him than a coach. Same more or less with Davies and Garza I'm sure doesn't listen to anything DJ says anyway.

 

I agree with everything above, Jungmann and Peralta not being Johnson fault, Guerra and Davies are not his success (up till injury), Garza is Garza.

 

I was thinking that Anderson could just be park effect coming from the west division parks, so took a look, and his home era is 4 and road is 6, but exactly the same whip and average allowed. So not really a park effect to blame, still would obviously be better pitching in Los Angeles, etc. I did think we were trading for his best, prime year this year and would get a 3.75 type era performance.

 

What would be really nice to know is what Nelson is. Is he the pitcher from the end of June through July or the guy since that? Or he just going to be up and down and end up around a 4.00 era type of guy a majority of his career?

 

It would be nice if Johnson can work some magic with Anderson and Nelson.

[LouisEly]

Most assumed Jungmann was pitching way over his head last year and Peralta's fall started well before Johnson even got here.

Jungmann's performance since going to Biloxi (.194 BAA, 1.09 WHIP, 9.8 K/9, 2.77 ERA) seems to indicate that he wasn't pitching that much over his head (at least not to the extent of a 9.15 ERA vs 3.77 ERA). As for AAA, Colorado Springs does weird things to pitchers - just ask Hader, Lopez, etc. And Peralta's fall started exactly two starts (specifically Sept 16th) before Johnson got here; as of Sept 15th his ERA was 4.14 (this year 6.38). He was up and down after coming off the DL last year, but his starts on Aug 30, Sept 5 (rain delay IIRC, neither starter went beyond 3 IP), and Sept 10th were pretty darned good - to the tune of a combined 1.80 ERA over 15 innings. (His starts on Aug 8th and 14th were pretty good too.)

 

So who has Johnson helped since he got here?

 

If the answer is "no one", then don't you have to question the hire?

[Noche]

There has been a pile of nice bullpen performances this year.

 

Also unfair to not reward him for Davies. Davies looked bad his first few starts this year. They encouraged him to trust his repotoire and he has been excellent since.

[torts]

You have to give him credit for any pitchers success or failings this year as he has been the coach all season.

[Ennder]

One partial year of pitching data is so unreliable that I don't think you can draw any conclusions about any player much less draw any sort of conclusions about a pitching coach.

[TheCrew07]

There has been a pile of nice bullpen performances this year.

 

Also unfair to not reward him for Davies. Davies looked bad his first few starts this year. They encouraged him to trust his repotoire and he has been excellent since.

 

The bullpen coach is Lee Tunnell, whom I have great respect for and learned quite a bit about teaching pitching from, his audio interviews with various affiliates over the years were extremely informative.

[DuWayne Steurer]

One partial year of pitching data is so unreliable that I don't think you can draw any conclusions about any player much less draw any sort of conclusions about a pitching coach.

 

 

Pretty much yeah, what Ennder said.

 

Unless a player specifically comes out to the press and says "coach told me to start trying "X, Y, Z" and all of a sudden I was having success", we don't have a really big sample to go on with any of these guys, and most of them are performing the way we'd expect them to perform.

[Noche]

There has been a pile of nice bullpen performances this year.

 

Also unfair to not reward him for Davies. Davies looked bad his first few starts this year. They encouraged him to trust his repotoire and he has been excellent since.

 

The bullpen coach is Lee Tunnell, whom I have great respect for and learned quite a bit about teaching pitching from, his audio interviews with various affiliates over the years were extremely informative.

 

Just clarifying, are you implying DJ should take a backseat to Tunnel when awarding credit to those good bullpen performances?

[TheCrew07]

Yes I am and I considered it a tremendous waste of resources when they moved him up from the pitching coordinator to the MLB bullpen. Instead of being able to have an impact at every level of the organization he's only dealing with a handful of players in any one season.

 

I'm sure it was better for Lee on a personal level as he's on the road half as much, and of course he's getting paid more, but I would have rather paid him the same or more to stay in the role he was occupying at the time of the promotion.