Chase Utley slide breaks Rubén Tejada’s leg: confounding call on review, dirty play? (split from two threads) Latest: Utley suspended for games 3 & 4; will appeal

[Invader3K]

I was at the gym this morning watching MLB Network, and they had a pretty good segment on this topic. They showed clips of multiple instances over the past year or so with this type of slide. My feeling is that a lot of these "slides" are just plain ridiculous. You have guys literally "sliding" past second base, into a defender's leg/ankle.This isn't diving into second base and then momentum carrying guys past the bag. It's guys not even starting their slide until they are at or past the bag. It isn't "hard baseball". It's doing something with no other intent than hitting the other player.

[MrTPlush]

Can you guys stop saying he was hit by an airborne base runner? He was clearly not airborne.

 

He was not trying to get out of the baseline all he was doing was turning himself for a throw to first. He made no attempt to avoid the runner coming at him. Utley was very close to 2nd and I am not sure why Tejada was going to attempt a throw. Maybe he felt safe a few feet behind 2nd? In that case he shouldn't be playing middle infield if that's how smart he is.

 

Utley was not running harder than any other daily play into 2nd. That type of slide happens all the time during the regular season. Difference is most fielders will just bail out or jump up. Tejada opted to stay planted on the ground and got trucked. That's the risk he takes. He was well aware Utley was coming in hard.

[1992casey]

Belle hit Viña with his forearm between first and second, so it's a completely different play. However, the clean/dirty unintentional/intentional aspect is similar. Also, Belle's role in a brawl later in the game contributed to length of the suspension.

 

[young guns]

RoCoBrewfan, I think you vastly overestimate how much time Utley had.

 

There is something called the

- it's related to self-defense/police officer survival as opposed to baseball, but some principles are the same, especially involving breaking up the double play. Six steps could be about 20-25 feet. For the sake of argument, let's say 21 feet - the distance used in the Tueller Drill. One side note: The Tueller Drill usually involves someone who is standing still, and then starts running. Utley was already running towards second base when he crossed that 21-foot mark.

 

Police Magazine has some more on the dynamics, but I think that you're being unfair to Chase Utley here. He did not have a few seconds - he maybe had a second and half at most to recognize what was going to happen, decide on a course of action, and then execute said course of action, and he probably defaulted to what he was trained to do by coaches going back to high school - break up the double play.

So in football, when Clay Matthews has the QB in his sights, he should be allowed 6 steps after the QB throws the ball? The would be unnecessary roughness all day long. In baseball, the only issue is their isn't much of a precedence for punishing Utley. So if that is your argument, that's fine. I won't disagree with that. But Utley, knew exactly what he was doing when he began his slide into the mid thigh of Tejada. It wasn't a split second, oooops moment. He knew based on where the ball was, where Tejada was coming from and where he needed so "slide" to take Tejada out completely. And my gut tells me, this type of tackle slide will soon be banned.

 

Read the Police Magazine article.

When an officer experiences a threat, it takes on average .58 seconds to experience the threat and determine if it is real.

 

Let's give Chase Utley 1.5 seconds to be generous (as I noted earlier, the Tueller Drill has the person covering 21 feet in 1.5 seconds from a standing start - if he's running at full speed, that timeframe is going to be shorter). He's lost .58 seconds as he is seeing the second baseman field the ball and flip it to Tejada. That means he's taken two of those six steps, roughly.

 

It then takes on average .56 to 1.0 seconds to make a response decision.

 

So, Utley's already taking two steps running at full speed as he sees the second baseman field the ball and flip it to Tejada. Now, he has to decide what to do, while still running at full speed. He can't think it through, by then, he is going to run past second. He's going to revert to his training - or in this case, what's been drilled into his head by coaches going back to high school or little league. That would be "break up the double play."

 

In the case of Clay Matthews blitzing Jay Cutler, he's still going to need time - and space to stop when Cutler throws the pass. It will take two steps for Matthews to recognize Cutler's thrown the ball, and then at least oneor two more to make the decision he needs to stop.

 

Should they look at this play and consider a rule change? Probably. But a suspension, especially when there is no precedent for doing so, is the wrong thing to do.

The problem I see with your analogy is that with the police it is, guy running towards me with weapon, pull weapon to defend myself and then actually pulling the weapon, he only has those 21 feet to do that. With Utley, his decision process starts from the second he takes off, if not earlier. He only has 2 options, ball getting through and ball getting stopped by the fielder. When he starts running hes thinking, ball gets through im going to third if the fielder stops it im sliding into second to break up the double play, because he has to know that if the fielder gets to it the only way he will be safe is if theres an error. The cop also only has the time from when the guy starts running to react, whereas Utley can extrapolate where the ball is going and see before the fielder gets the ball that he will get the ball. So he has more time to act then just when the fielder actually touches the ball. I also think the act of starting a slide is a little easier to initiate then trying to draw a gun. Therefore I think he had more than enough time to slide safer if he wanted to and purposely went high to make sure Tejada couldn't complete the throw to first, though I don't think he wanted to hurt him, just knock him down.

[Patrick425]

Regardless of how anyone feels about that play, it sure makes tonight's game pretty much a must see if you are a baseball fan, especially since it's being played in NY. I wouldn't want to be Seager on a close play at 2nd. Do you think they will be on a "auto-eject" mode regarding any bean balls?

[BrewCrewForever]

While I don't think Utley intended to hurt Tejada. I think he intended to break up that double play by any means. Even if it meant roughing Tejada up enough to where he could not make a throw to 1B. Just so happens he roughed him up enough to break his leg. Not dirty, but not right either. Hope they do something to the rule to stop things of this nature.

[1992casey]

In one of the piles of articles I read, Joe Maddon said that MLB simply needs to enforce rules that are already in place rather than creating a new one. Torre defended the umps by saying that there was a lot going on on the field, including the safe/out thing. In cases like that, if warranted, enforcement can come a little later in the form of a fine and/or suspension.

[502 to Right]

I think it was a non-dirty play (I won't say it was clean). It was certainly in the gray but not obviously dirty. It was hard-nosed baseball and people are freaking out about because of the result, not the actual slide.

 

Question: Was Matt Holliday suspended for his take out of Marco Scutaro in the 2012 playoffs? Because that play was much dirtier than Chase Utley's. I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If Holliday wasn't suspended there's no way Utley shoud be.

 

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/39049312/v25415817/must-c-collision-holliday-slides-into-scutaro

[MadScientist]

In one of the piles of articles I read, Joe Maddon said that MLB simply needs to enforce rules that are already in place rather than creating a new one. Torre defended the umps by saying that there was a lot going on on the field, including the safe/out thing. In cases like that, if warranted, enforcement can come a little later in the form of a fine and/or suspension.

 

I would suggest a clarification on what is a legal vs illegal slide. Specifically when sliding into second feet first, the player's butt must be on the ground before his feet reach second. When sliding hands first, the chest must be on the ground before the hands reach second. If the runner contacts the fielder without doing so, or without touching second, it constitutes interference. Any barrel-roll slide that contacts the fielder is interference.

 

This wouldn't eliminate contact, or breaking up the double-play, but would eliminate needlessly dangerous 'slides' and make it clear what is and isn't allowed.

[jerichoholicninja]

The rule states the runner cannot attempt to interfere with the fielder. Every takeout slide is an attempt to interfere with the throw. The way the rule is written, interference should be called 90%+ of the time but how often is it actually called?

[MrTPlush]

The rule states the runner cannot attempt to interfere with the fielder. Every takeout slide is an attempt to interfere with the throw. The way the rule is written, interference should be called 90%+ of the time but how often is it actually called?

 

Only time I see it called is when a runner is way out of the baseline and nowhere near touching 2nd base. Even then it is pretty rare. I always thought take out slides were legal as long as you were close to the base.

[jerichoholicninja]

(7.09(f)):

 

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.

 

Every takeout slide is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the fielder and break up a double play. There is no written rule about being able to touch the base.

[MadScientist]

(7.09(f)):

 

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire...

 

That is a big part of the problem. There isn't a clear definition for the judgement. Having criteria written that will say what gets called, and setting the criteria for reasonable player safety will help. The current unwritten judgement rules are not good enough.

[MrTPlush]

I don't see any way this suspension can be upheld. There is no precedent for it, especially when Utley was neither ejected nor called for interference during the game. I don't see how what happened here isn't any different than what Coghlan did to Kang last month.

 

There is precedent, and it actually involved the Brewers, albeit nearly 20 years ago.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/04/sports/baseball-american-league-suspends-belle-for-five-games.html

 

Tejada planted, started to pivot and moved his body towards CF in an attempt to avoid contact.

 

Even if he doesn't pivot, and he just STANDS THERE, 3 feet on the SS side of 2nd, Utley barrels into him and takes him out.

 

Do you honestly think that? He did a typical spin and plant to prepare for a throw to first...very obvious. If he was trying to avoid contact why would he stop?

 

And no he shouldn't just stand there instead. He should have done what any other player does in that exact situation. Jump and let your feet get hit so you just glacefully fall to the ground.

 

 

He was facing away from 1st base, you need to pivot and torque your body before you can jump. It was definitely an awkward feed, as it came from the 3B side of 2B.

 

He started to pivot, and stepped towards CF (so he wouldn't be in the baseline, as any SS is taught) and before he could jump he was taken out by an airborne baserunner.

 

He made no real move to avoid Utley is the problem.Why he even wanted to throw to first I will never know. He must have thought Utley wasn't going to attempt to run into him...maybe he thought Utley knew he didn't touch second and wasn't going to attempt to truck him over at that point. It just doesn't make sense to do what Tejada did. He saw Utley right there and should have bailed out. I don't think a throw would have even been close at 1st.

 

I am not trying to blame the "victim" here as Utley's slide was not acceptable(not dirty though), but Tejeda was playing some bad baseball on that play. As a middle infielder you have to be smart and protect yourself. Letting a runner take a free shot on you when you have no chance to make a play is just bad baseball. As mentioned many times this is not even close to the first time a player has slid like this. Why have we never heard of it before? Because most middle infielders use their brain and get the heck out of the way.

[trwi7]

He made no real move to avoid Utley is the problem.Why he even wanted to throw to first I will never know.

 

He made no real move to avoid Utley because his back was to him because a bad throw made him twist around and he wanted to throw it to 1st because a double play would've gotten his team out of the inning with the lead instead of a tie or trailing.

[jerichoholicninja]

(7.09(f)):

 

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire...

 

That is a big part of the problem. There isn't a clear definition for the judgement. Having criteria written that will say what gets called, and setting the criteria for reasonable player safety will help. The current unwritten judgement rules are not good enough.

 

I agree this is the problem but I'm worried about how they fix it. The home plate collision rule is still not well understood by umpires and ruled inconsistently even with replay. I can see this turning into the NFL catch rule where there are countless scenarios for when something is a completed catch or not. NFL catches, home plate collisions, and takeout slides either are or aren't. You know it when you see it happen, there shouldn't be confusing criteria for these situations.

[MadScientist]

(7.09(f)):

 

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire...

 

That is a big part of the problem. There isn't a clear definition for the judgement. Having criteria written that will say what gets called, and setting the criteria for reasonable player safety will help. The current unwritten judgement rules are not good enough.

 

I agree this is the problem but I'm worried about how they fix it. The home plate collision rule is still not well understood by umpires and ruled inconsistently even with replay. I can see this turning into the NFL catch rule where there are countless scenarios for when something is a completed catch or not. NFL catches, home plate collisions, and takeout slides either are or aren't. You know it when you see it happen, there shouldn't be confusing criteria for these situations.

 

Either you can basically eliminate the take-out play by saying the runner has to slide directly at the bag (like HS and college), or if you want to leave the play in but really reduce the injury chance, make the rule something like butt on the ground before the runner's feet reach second. Utley could have done that and still disrupted the throw without breaking Tejada's leg.

[jerichoholicninja]

See, I don't want language like "butt on the ground" or whatever because there will be plenty of instances where that is too hard to call on the field and you wind up getting more stupid replays and having inconsistent calls like plays at the plate. Changing it to slide directly at the base is a good start but it also has to include language about barrel rolling and throwing forearms. Most importantly, though, it needs to actually be called by the umps. And I think that will be the hardest part to change.

[MadScientist]

Agree on banning the barrel roll. Save barrel rolling for the 7th inning stretch. As for the player on the ground, you could still make it a non-reviewable judgment call with better the guidelines. Since the umpire should be looking at the bag, he should be able to see if the runner is down. I don't think there will be too many close calls on this, since sliding too late is a significant injury risk to the runner. But I'd be fine with the direct to the bag slide rule. Players should be used to this before reaching pro ball and it doesn't hurt the game.

 

Baseball is not a collision sport.

[jerichoholicninja]

Utley's appeal isn't going to be heard until the middle of the NLCS. What is the point? I understand the MLBPA asked for some time to make a case but over a week? Come on. His appeal should have been heard the day after so the suspension actually makes a difference. His suspension better be upheld and even lengthened, although I'm sure neither will happen.

[1992casey]

My question would be what would happen if the Dodgers were eliminated before an Utley suspension. A one or two game postseason suspension is huge, but a one or two game regular season suspension would be nothing. Given that this thing started with two games, I suppose there's nothing that would be in place that would lengthen a suspension if it would occur next year.

[jerichoholicninja]

My question would be what would happen if the Dodgers were eliminated before an Utley suspension. A one or two game postseason suspension is huge, but a one or two game regular season suspension would be nothing. Given that this thing started with two games, I suppose there's nothing that would be in place that would lengthen a suspension if it would occur next year.

 

I was going to add something similar to my post. If the Dodgers are eliminated before the appeal, his suspension should be increased. Two playoff games are not equal to two regular season games.

[502 to Right]

He shouldn't be suspended at all. If you want to change how the rules are enforced going forward, that's fine.

[dlk9s]

The Dodgers should WANT Utley to get suspended.