Chase Utley slide breaks Rubén Tejada’s leg: confounding call on review, dirty play? (split from two threads) Latest: Utley suspended for games 3 & 4; will appeal

[MrTPlush]

Tejada probably breaks his leg even if that was a clean slide. He saw Utley coming up RIGHT on him yet decided to do a spin move any way planting his foot. Was stupid on his part and any sane player would have bailed on a throw to first at that point. I have seen slides just as hard as that many times. However usually the fielder doesn't plant his foot when he knows he is about to get hit by a base runner. It looks a lot worse than it is because Tejada opted to plant his foot for whatever reason.

 

As to him not touching the base on his "dirty" slide so many player avoid 2nd base trying to break up a double play...SO MANY. It is a part of baseball and most umpires won't call it.

 

In today's game ,in my opinion, that was a clean hard slide. For now that is apart of the game. Much like plowing over the catcher with no intentions of try to touch home used to be apart of the game. Whether they try to change this in the future should be interesting. I think it would be tough since it would be a judgement thing as I can't fathom them not allowing take out slides completely.

[Baldkin]

He went airborne, cleared second base, and hit Tejada on the 3B side of 2nd.

 

Tejada planted, started to pivot and moved his body towards CF in an attempt to avoid contact.

 

Even if he doesn't pivot, and he just STANDS THERE, 3 feet on the SS side of 2nd, Utley barrels into him and takes him out.

[stoutdude04]

He went airborne, cleared second base, and hit Tejada on the 3B side of 2nd.

 

Pretty sure I read this from you before...but, he didn't make contact on the 3rd base side or 2nd. Or, am I missing something?

[jerichoholicninja]

I've only recently joined the Twitter-verse and I follow a lot of ex-players. I've got to say that I always associated the dumb, meat head jock stereotype only with football players but there certainly are a lot of baseball players that fall into that category too. The guys I follow were unanimously on Papelbon's side after he choked Harper and they are also unanimously in agreement that Utley's side was ok and some have even stated that it was Tejada's fault he got hurt.

[TURBO]

...and you Brewer fans...

 

ummmm, yes?

[DuWayne Steurer]

I've only recently joined the Twitter-verse and I follow a lot of ex-players. I've got to say that I always associated the dumb, meat head jock stereotype only with football players but there certainly are a lot of baseball players that fall into that category too. The guys I follow were unanimously on Papelbon's side after he choked Harper and they are also unanimously in agreement that Utley's side was ok and some have even stated that it was Tejada's fault he got hurt.

 

 

Hahahaha! Matt Williams is hoping you get hit by a pitch tomorrow for saying this.

[MrTPlush]

Tejada planted, started to pivot and moved his body towards CF in an attempt to avoid contact.

 

Even if he doesn't pivot, and he just STANDS THERE, 3 feet on the SS side of 2nd, Utley barrels into him and takes him out.

 

Do you honestly think that? He did a typical spin and plant to prepare for a throw to first...very obvious. If he was trying to avoid contact why would he stop?

 

And no he shouldn't just stand there instead. He should have done what any other player does in that exact situation. Jump and let your feet get hit so you just glacefully fall to the ground.

[trwi7]

Utley has been suspended for two games.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/25336058/chase-utley-suspended-for-games-3-and-4-of-nlds-for-takeout-slide

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

The slide looked aggressive to say the least, dirty at it's worst.

 

A slide like that won't always cause an injury. When making the turn, they teach you to point your knee at the sliding runner so if you are hit it won't bust up your knee. It lessens the probability of other leg injuries as well. Unfortunately the awkward position of the SS didn't help matters in regards to the injury.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Utley has been suspended for two games.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/25336058/chase-utley-suspended-for-games-3-and-4-of-nlds-for-takeout-slide

 

 

Torre's explanation was interesting. They don't believe Utley's intention was to injure, but that it was a violation of the rule, and the rule violation lead to the injury, so......suspension.

 

I can't disagree with the reasoning here.

 

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Utley was put back on base last night though.

[stoutdude04]

They just showed 3 or 4 other slides from the other playoff games which were as bad or worse...no penalties there though.

[Hammer]

I'm sorry...but that "slide" was as dirty as it gets. This isn't MMA, this is playoff baseball. To completely jump over the base and collide with the planted legs of a fielder is inexcusable. That's not even playing hard...it's playing jerk-off dirty baseball.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't see any way this suspension can be upheld. There is no precedent for it, especially when Utley was neither ejected nor called for interference during the game. I don't see how what happened here isn't any different than what Coghlan did to Kang last month.

[MrTPlush]

I have a hard time seeing it being upheld too. If the reason is for breaking the rule I don't see it...I really don't.

[Bombers]

I don't see any way this suspension can be upheld. There is no precedent for it, especially when Utley was neither ejected nor called for interference during the game. I don't see how what happened here isn't any different than what Coghlan did to Kang last month.

I don't think MLB has the same rule the NFL has where they could apply "integrity of the game." To me, why I think they should routinely suspend players for this type of slide is; when would someone ever slide like that if they were actually trying to be safe? Never. So, the runner purposely collided with the thrower in ultimately a non baseball slide. which to me should be an immediate ejection, fine and suspension. I get sliding hard into 2nd when you are doing a normal slide but there was nothing normal about this slide.

[molitor fan]

I just wish people would consider the whole play when framing their judgements against Utley...he spent the majority of the play charging hard towards the right side of the bag thinking the ball was going into center and rounding his run in order to get to third base....the play was made, astoundingly, and then the fielder bounded directly into his path....Utley never planned to slide - he was planning to catch the corner of the bag and advance to third....it was just a collection of events that quickly led to a split decision to try to break up the double play, which truly never had a chance to be made. To imply intention in this is pure lunacy.

[Bombers]

I just wish people would consider the whole play when framing their judgements against Utley...he spent the majority of the play charging hard towards the right side of the bag thinking the ball was going into center and rounding his run in order to get to third base....the play was made, astoundingly, and then the fielder bounded directly into his path....Utley never planned to slide - he was planning to catch the corner of the bag and advance to third....it was just a collection of events that quickly led to a split decision to try to break up the double play, which truly never had a chance to be made. To imply intention in this is pure lunacy.

Intent on injury of course not, intent on beginning his slide at mid thigh of Tejada, yes he went into the slide knowing exactly where he was going to slide to break up the double play. And his slide was no where near trying to be safe at second. His sole goal was to hit Tejada as hard as possible.

 

As I said before, this type of slide where you are just sliding just to make a collision will soon be banned. It's the reason it happened at home plate. What if this happened to Jeter. Does everyone think MLB offices are going to sit back and say, it's just part of the game? No, it's in MLB's interest to protect players from injury. Especially on unnecessary collisions.

And to think Uttley is free of any blame is lunacy in my opinion.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I just wish people would consider the whole play when framing their judgements against Utley...he spent the majority of the play charging hard towards the right side of the bag thinking the ball was going into center and rounding his run in order to get to third base....the play was made, astoundingly, and then the fielder bounded directly into his path....Utley never planned to slide - he was planning to catch the corner of the bag and advance to third....it was just a collection of events that quickly led to a split decision to try to break up the double play, which truly never had a chance to be made. To imply intention in this is pure lunacy.

 

 

There is absolutely no way this was a "split second" decision on Utley's part. When you watch the replay from the first base camera, (Utley's POV), the 2nd baseman fields the ball, and Tejada is at the bag and Utley takes exactly six more steps. COunt em'........6.

 

6 Steps is a few seconds, not a split second. As I've said, I do not believe his intent was to injure, but he was not a baserunner, he was going in to break up a double play. However, he did not even go in with the pretense that he was trying to safely secure the base, and that's where I think there's where there's the issue with the play.

[clancyphile]

I just wish people would consider the whole play when framing their judgements against Utley...he spent the majority of the play charging hard towards the right side of the bag thinking the ball was going into center and rounding his run in order to get to third base....the play was made, astoundingly, and then the fielder bounded directly into his path....Utley never planned to slide - he was planning to catch the corner of the bag and advance to third....it was just a collection of events that quickly led to a split decision to try to break up the double play, which truly never had a chance to be made. To imply intention in this is pure lunacy.

 

 

There is absolutely no way this was a "split second" decision on Utley's part. When you watch the replay from the first base camera, (Utley's POV), the 2nd baseman fields the ball, and Tejada is at the bag and Utley takes exactly six more steps. COunt em'........6.

 

6 Steps is a few seconds, not a split second. As I've said, I do not believe his intent was to injure, but he was not a baserunner, he was going in to break up a double play. However, he did not even go in with the pretense that he was trying to safely secure the base, and that's where I think there's where there's the issue with the play.

 

RoCoBrewfan, I think you vastly overestimate how much time Utley had.

 

There is something called the

- it's related to self-defense/police officer survival as opposed to baseball, but some principles are the same, especially involving breaking up the double play. Six steps could be about 20-25 feet. For the sake of argument, let's say 21 feet - the distance used in the Tueller Drill. One side note: The Tueller Drill usually involves someone who is standing still, and then starts running. Utley was already running towards second base when he crossed that 21-foot mark.

 

Police Magazine has some more on the dynamics, but I think that you're being unfair to Chase Utley here. He did not have a few seconds - he maybe had a second and half at most to recognize what was going to happen, decide on a course of action, and then execute said course of action, and he probably defaulted to what he was trained to do by coaches going back to high school - break up the double play.

[Bombers]

I just wish people would consider the whole play when framing their judgements against Utley...he spent the majority of the play charging hard towards the right side of the bag thinking the ball was going into center and rounding his run in order to get to third base....the play was made, astoundingly, and then the fielder bounded directly into his path....Utley never planned to slide - he was planning to catch the corner of the bag and advance to third....it was just a collection of events that quickly led to a split decision to try to break up the double play, which truly never had a chance to be made. To imply intention in this is pure lunacy.

 

 

There is absolutely no way this was a "split second" decision on Utley's part. When you watch the replay from the first base camera, (Utley's POV), the 2nd baseman fields the ball, and Tejada is at the bag and Utley takes exactly six more steps. COunt em'........6.

 

6 Steps is a few seconds, not a split second. As I've said, I do not believe his intent was to injure, but he was not a baserunner, he was going in to break up a double play. However, he did not even go in with the pretense that he was trying to safely secure the base, and that's where I think there's where there's the issue with the play.

 

RoCoBrewfan, I think you vastly overestimate how much time Utley had.

 

There is something called the

- it's related to self-defense/police officer survival as opposed to baseball, but some principles are the same, especially involving breaking up the double play. Six steps could be about 20-25 feet. For the sake of argument, let's say 21 feet - the distance used in the Tueller Drill. One side note: The Tueller Drill usually involves someone who is standing still, and then starts running. Utley was already running towards second base when he crossed that 21-foot mark.

 

Police Magazine has some more on the dynamics, but I think that you're being unfair to Chase Utley here. He did not have a few seconds - he maybe had a second and half at most to recognize what was going to happen, decide on a course of action, and then execute said course of action, and he probably defaulted to what he was trained to do by coaches going back to high school - break up the double play.

So in football, when Clay Matthews has the QB in his sights, he should be allowed 6 steps after the QB throws the ball? The would be unnecessary roughness all day long. In baseball, the only issue is their isn't much of a precedence for punishing Utley. So if that is your argument, that's fine. I won't disagree with that. But Utley, knew exactly what he was doing when he began his slide into the mid thigh of Tejada. It wasn't a split second, oooops moment. He knew based on where the ball was, where Tejada was coming from and where he needed so "slide" to take Tejada out completely. And my gut tells me, this type of tackle slide will soon be banned.

[DuWayne Steurer]

He knew based on where the ball was, where Tejada was coming from and where he needed so "slide" to take Tejada out completely. And my gut tells me, this type of tackle slide will soon be banned.

 

 

This is what's going to happen. And then people will complain (and perhaps rightfully so).

 

After watching the video from the 1st base angle, I firmly believe Utley had more than enough time to not dive into/tackle Tejada. Semantics being what they are, we can argue all day about what his intentions are. What can't be in dispute is that he didn't slide into 2nd base. He committed an ugly act on a national stage that's going to force the higher ups to say *sigh*....."let's make a rule change" and people are going to grouse about it much like the Buster Posey rule. Is it good for baseball?

 

That's very debatable. The "break up slide" is part of the game. It's a strategic play that has a place in the game. Unfortunately this play puts it under a microscope now.

 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[JohnBriggs12]

His late decision to slide into Tejada could be interpreted as good hard baseball, but when you start your slide beyond the base and hit the fielder with such force to break his leg, you're deserving of a suspension regardless of intentions. There's a line between good hard baseball, and cheap shots, and he crossed it and baseball needs to discourage it.

[dlk9s]

Clearly dirty. No need to be an apologist for "good, hard baseball."

[clancyphile]

RoCoBrewfan, I think you vastly overestimate how much time Utley had.

 

There is something called the

- it's related to self-defense/police officer survival as opposed to baseball, but some principles are the same, especially involving breaking up the double play. Six steps could be about 20-25 feet. For the sake of argument, let's say 21 feet - the distance used in the Tueller Drill. One side note: The Tueller Drill usually involves someone who is standing still, and then starts running. Utley was already running towards second base when he crossed that 21-foot mark.

 

Police Magazine has some more on the dynamics, but I think that you're being unfair to Chase Utley here. He did not have a few seconds - he maybe had a second and half at most to recognize what was going to happen, decide on a course of action, and then execute said course of action, and he probably defaulted to what he was trained to do by coaches going back to high school - break up the double play.

So in football, when Clay Matthews has the QB in his sights, he should be allowed 6 steps after the QB throws the ball? The would be unnecessary roughness all day long. In baseball, the only issue is their isn't much of a precedence for punishing Utley. So if that is your argument, that's fine. I won't disagree with that. But Utley, knew exactly what he was doing when he began his slide into the mid thigh of Tejada. It wasn't a split second, oooops moment. He knew based on where the ball was, where Tejada was coming from and where he needed so "slide" to take Tejada out completely. And my gut tells me, this type of tackle slide will soon be banned.

 

Read the Police Magazine article.

When an officer experiences a threat, it takes on average .58 seconds to experience the threat and determine if it is real.

 

Let's give Chase Utley 1.5 seconds to be generous (as I noted earlier, the Tueller Drill has the person covering 21 feet in 1.5 seconds from a standing start - if he's running at full speed, that timeframe is going to be shorter). He's lost .58 seconds as he is seeing the second baseman field the ball and flip it to Tejada. That means he's taken two of those six steps, roughly.

 

It then takes on average .56 to 1.0 seconds to make a response decision.

 

So, Utley's already taking two steps running at full speed as he sees the second baseman field the ball and flip it to Tejada. Now, he has to decide what to do, while still running at full speed. He can't think it through, by then, he is going to run past second. He's going to revert to his training - or in this case, what's been drilled into his head by coaches going back to high school or little league. That would be "break up the double play."

 

In the case of Clay Matthews blitzing Jay Cutler, he's still going to need time - and space to stop when Cutler throws the pass. It will take two steps for Matthews to recognize Cutler's thrown the ball, and then at least oneor two more to make the decision he needs to stop.

 

Should they look at this play and consider a rule change? Probably. But a suspension, especially when there is no precedent for doing so, is the wrong thing to do.

[Baldkin]

I don't see any way this suspension can be upheld. There is no precedent for it, especially when Utley was neither ejected nor called for interference during the game. I don't see how what happened here isn't any different than what Coghlan did to Kang last month.

 

There is precedent, and it actually involved the Brewers, albeit nearly 20 years ago.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/04/sports/baseball-american-league-suspends-belle-for-five-games.html

 

Tejada planted, started to pivot and moved his body towards CF in an attempt to avoid contact.

 

Even if he doesn't pivot, and he just STANDS THERE, 3 feet on the SS side of 2nd, Utley barrels into him and takes him out.

 

Do you honestly think that? He did a typical spin and plant to prepare for a throw to first...very obvious. If he was trying to avoid contact why would he stop?

 

And no he shouldn't just stand there instead. He should have done what any other player does in that exact situation. Jump and let your feet get hit so you just glacefully fall to the ground.

 

 

He was facing away from 1st base, you need to pivot and torque your body before you can jump. It was definitely an awkward feed, as it came from the 3B side of 2B.

 

He started to pivot, and stepped towards CF (so he wouldn't be in the baseline, as any SS is taught) and before he could jump he was taken out by an airborne baserunner.