Next Year & Pitching

[pacopete4]

So we have quite a few guys that we can see in our rotation. Maybe none of them are #1's but they could be a solid group. Since next year could be a lost year, why not pair them up and try to keep innings in check throughout the year. Keep 13 pitchers but have the starter throw 4-5 innings and then the partner throw 2-3 and flip flop them every other start or every few starts. Maybe it's a ludicrous idea but maybe it allows you to keep the best set of pitchers getting MLB experience while we are in a rebuild. Keep the number of pitches down for our younger guys. Even if we moved Garza, we have arms to fill in his place. Could get a look at Smith in this scenario as well.

 

Nelson - Wagner

Peralta* - Cravy/Blazek

Jungmann - Pena

Garza* - Smith

Daives- Lopez

 

Jeffress / Knebel / Barrios or Krod*

 

*hopefully or possibly traded in the offseason

[brewcrewdue80]

After watching Wagner pitch last night, I'm not to high on his pitching form. I don't think this strategy will work since it hurts all the pitcher involved value. The SP has to get through 5IP to qualify for the win and you're suggesting having them pulled before they likely get 5IP. So talking about having SPs with 0-14 records. Meanwhile these 2nd pitchers to go would likely be 10-3 since they qualify for the W and come in to a game either behind or tied to pitch to Ws.

 

As for next season I see Nelson, Jungmann, and Davies for sure. Garza will get his chance. Peralta is who I've campaigned for to get traded(He'll turn in to Jake Arrieta of course) and the #5 SP then is a who's pitching the best among the AAA guys. Lopez would be best bet, but Cravy, Wagner are there if one is doing better than the other. Josh Hader is an up and comer option like Lopez. I think the team will be fine come trade deadline dumping both Garza/Peralta and moving ahead. Jeffress/Knebel are the future closers when you can part with KRod. Smith/Pena/Blazek with having Wagner or Cravy as longmen...oh and Thornburg. Seems the pitching is set for 2016.

[superfly]

If Counsell had implemented something like this there would be a riot on these forums.

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's absolutely zero chance you'll see something like this in an MLB rotation.

[WV Brew]

I would like to see them use Wagner/Lopez as a 6th starter and just let one of the real starters get some rest on the DL for a stint. That is, Wagner/Lopez pitch in AAA and come up when one of the starters is being rested. You rotate the starters through the DL to accomplish this. The Red Sox did this while winning a World Series and I wish the Brewers had in '14 because their staff seemed to wear down at the end.

[jerichoholicninja]

There's absolutely zero chance you'll see something like this in an MLB rotation.

 

I think that whenever the DH is universal this type pitching use won't be uncommon.

[SRB]

There's absolutely zero chance you'll see something like this in an MLB rotation.

 

I think that whenever the DH is universal this type pitching use won't be uncommon.

 

Why wouldn't you already have it in the AL then?

[jerichoholicninja]

There's absolutely zero chance you'll see something like this in an MLB rotation.

 

I think that whenever the DH is universal this type pitching use won't be uncommon.

 

Why wouldn't you already have it in the AL then?

 

Because the pitcher still bats in NL parks which happens frequently now. Also probably because a major change to the game like adding the DH to both leagues would cause some of the really smart teams to take a look at ways they can take advantage of that change. I could see the Pirates doing that especially since they have decided to have their players play less.

[JohnBriggs12]

I could see a 13 man staff with a 6 man rotation, but there's no way you pair guys up. They need to develop some studs at the top. You don't do that by using guys 5 innings. All their younger guys have options. If the one or two who start the season in the rotation struggle, it's the next guy's turn.

[SoCalBrewfan]

MLB trade rumors reported this from Heyman:

 

The Brewers will target rotation help this offseason, and Heyman calls Kennedy a “possibility.” To me, that’d seem like more of the same from recent winters, when Milwaukee added Matt Garza and Kyle Lohse — a pair of mid-range upgrades. Unlike those winters, however, they’re not close enough to contention this time around for me to see the logic in offering Kennedy a four-year deal, especially since he’ll probably end up with a qualifying offer attached to his name. On another Brewers’ note, Heyman writes that the team should listen on Jean Segura, given Orlando Arcia‘s emergence in the minors, though I’m not sure Segura is teeming with trade value following another poor season.

 

I was worried until I checked Kennedy's agent...just a coincidence I'm sure that it's Scott Boras, Heyman's favorite source. So maybe they're trying to drum up business for Kennedy? How could that possibly make sense for the Brewers?

[reillymcshane]

MLB trade rumors reported this from Heyman:

 

The Brewers will target rotation help this offseason, and Heyman calls Kennedy a “possibility.” To me, that’d seem like more of the same from recent winters, when Milwaukee added Matt Garza and Kyle Lohse — a pair of mid-range upgrades. Unlike those winters, however, they’re not close enough to contention this time around for me to see the logic in offering Kennedy a four-year deal, especially since he’ll probably end up with a qualifying offer attached to his name. On another Brewers’ note, Heyman writes that the team should listen on Jean Segura, given Orlando Arcia‘s emergence in the minors, though I’m not sure Segura is teeming with trade value following another poor season.

 

I was worried until I checked Kennedy's agent...just a coincidence I'm sure that it's Scott Boras, Heyman's favorite source. So maybe they're trying to drum up business for Kennedy? How could that possibly make sense for the Brewers?

Signing a guy like Kennedy would just be really foolish. Suppan, Wolf, Lohse, Garza - it's worked great so far!

 

I just don't think Stearns is going to be going that route.

[brewcrewdue80]

I like the "Brewers will target rotation help this offseason" and then list Kennedy a possibility? What's that helping? creating a logjam of which #3/4 SPs to pitch? Help would be signing a legit #2/Ace. Anything else is creating logjam. Brewers have a full roster of #3/4s to start next season

[craigharmann]

Why target rotation help? Go young! There's no need to waste money on a LohseSuppanGarzaWolf type and limits the chances of a younger player or players. We've gone down that road before. It hasn't worked.

[jerichoholicninja]

MLB trade rumors reported this from Heyman:

 

The Brewers will target rotation help this offseason, and Heyman calls Kennedy a “possibility.” To me, that’d seem like more of the same from recent winters, when Milwaukee added Matt Garza and Kyle Lohse — a pair of mid-range upgrades. Unlike those winters, however, they’re not close enough to contention this time around for me to see the logic in offering Kennedy a four-year deal, especially since he’ll probably end up with a qualifying offer attached to his name. On another Brewers’ note, Heyman writes that the team should listen on Jean Segura, given Orlando Arcia‘s emergence in the minors, though I’m not sure Segura is teeming with trade value following another poor season.

 

I was worried until I checked Kennedy's agent...just a coincidence I'm sure that it's Scott Boras, Heyman's favorite source. So maybe they're trying to drum up business for Kennedy? How could that possibly make sense for the Brewers?

 

That "report" is all bull. Just words to fill space. The Brewers will not be signing any SP this offseason.

[JohnBriggs12]

It's a tricky distinction but Kennedy has a dominant season on his resume, and past guys the Brewers have shelled out money for haven't. Oh they had some decent seasons, but not as the leader on a staff. And despite his pedestrian 2015 numbers, he had several absolutely dominant performances including one over the Brewers in the final week.

 

A few years ago when Liriano was out there, I wanted the Brewers to sign him for that very same reason. His history as a dominant pitcher, and the occasional dominant performance he showed even in his bad years. The Pirates got him as an absolute steal. If Kennedy is cheap, why not?

 

Kennedy has been a true ace. Suppan, Garza, Wolf and Lohse were at best #3's that the Brewers thought could be more than that. He's still only 30 and with the crop of FA out there, he'll be overlooked and a bargain. Even if he doesn't turn this Brewer team into contenders, his potential as a future trading chip is phenomenal if you can get him for a bargain rate.

 

The Brewer everyday lineup is as good as at least 3 of the NL playoff teams and will be better when Arcia settles in. The difference (and it's huge) is that the Brewers don't have top of the rotation starters and as promising as some of their young guys are, I don't see a future ace in the group. I'd be fine with Kennedy replacing Garza as the vet leader of a young staff but the price has to be right.

[SoCalBrewfan]

The Brewers need to get out of the habit of paying pitchers for what they did in the past. In Kennedy's case, his good years were five years in the past. Last year his numbers benefited from his home park but he was really no better than, say, Wily Peralta, and he's about to turn 31. I don't want to commit three or four years at free agent prices and potentially give up a draft pick as well. We've tried that...

[trwi7]

We have about 50 options for starting pitching next year and we're rebuilding. Why exactly would we be spending money on the rotation, especially when we have no plans or expectations to win next year?

 

Whoever said Kennedy's agent is Boras and Heyman is Boras' guy to drum up business for his client(s) is spot on.

[BallFour]

Only way we should sign a Starting Pitcher if its a one year deal and said pitcher is trying to reestablish their value and we can trade him for prospects.

[JohnBriggs12]

The Brewers need to get out of the habit of paying pitchers for what they did in the past. In Kennedy's case, his good years were five years in the past. Last year his numbers benefited from his home park but he was really no better than, say, Wily Peralta, and he's about to turn 31. I don't want to commit three or four years at free agent prices and potentially give up a draft pick as well. We've tried that...

 

If you saw the two games Kennedy pitched against the Brewers, his home park played zero role. He dominated them. Brewers beat him with a 4 run first in August but he was untouchable after that through 7 innings. Last week was no contest as he fanned 11 in 6 innings. Here's a guy who fanned 174 batters in 168 innings. He's still got the stuff. Liriano was even more removed from his big season when the Pirates picked him up.

 

Where did anyone bring up 4 years? Kennedy might be had for 2 years $14-16 million, maybe even one. The market is saturated with starting pitching. The third tier guys will have to scramble. Bucs got Liriano in 2013 for one year $6 million.

[trwi7]

Where did anyone bring up 4 years? Kennedy might be had for 2 years $14-16 million, maybe even one. The market is saturated with starting pitching. The third tier guys will have to scramble. Bucs got Liriano in 2013 for one year $6 million.

 

If Kennedy is as good as you say he is, there's no way he's settling for 2 years, no matter how saturated the market is, especially at age 30. He's not going to want to go back to free agency at age 32. He's going to want a contract through age 34, at minimum

[monty57]

Re: "Pairing up" the pitchers

 

No chance. As has been pointed out, it would be bad for the players' development, as they need to be able to pitch more than 4 innings at some point, so make them do it now. It would also kill their trade value (we are rebuilding), as no one would know what they were getting. Finally, it would cause mayhem in the bullpen. You're talking about 10 guys on set rotation days. Does that mean the other 2 or 3 guys pitch every day, or are we assuming that we will keep one guy in 5 innings every start and his "mate" the final four, no matter how either of them are pitching? This would turn really ugly really quickly.

 

Re: Kennedy

 

I don't see the point. We have lots of young pitchers who should be showcased in 2016, and the only reason we're sticking Garza in the rotation is that we owe him a lot of money and are hoping he gets some trade value back.

 

Barring trades, I'd go with Nelson, Peralta, Garza, Jungmann and probably Davies, with a strong AAA rotation ready to step in for injuries, poor performance, or if someone is traded mid-season.

 

If the money is really burning a hole in Attanasio's pocket, and he feels the need to spend some of it, find a veteran 3B on a short-term deal, and possibly a veteran catcher or 1B if Lind and/or Lucroy are traded. Otherwise stick with youth.

[clancyphile]

Pass on Kennedy.

 

Give Suter/Davies/Hader a crack at the rotation.

 

And if he has a lot of money burning a hole in his wallet, let's use Khris Davis to anchor a deal to bring Prince Fielder to play first.

[JohnBriggs12]

Where did anyone bring up 4 years? Kennedy might be had for 2 years $14-16 million, maybe even one. The market is saturated with starting pitching. The third tier guys will have to scramble. Bucs got Liriano in 2013 for one year $6 million.

 

If Kennedy is as good as you say he is, there's no way he's settling for 2 years, no matter how saturated the market is, especially at age 30. He's not going to want to go back to free agency at age 32. He's going to want a contract through age 34, at minimum

 

There's plenty of supply out there. Once the big time markets get their fill they will jettison some of their other arms. He might have to settle if he and Boras think he's better than his results the last couple years. It would only take one year where he fans 200 with an ERA under 3.30 and instead of getting 3 year offers for $30 million, he'll get 5 year offers for $80 million next off season. So why not take one year at $10 million and take your chances?

 

Look at what Theo did with undervalued FA starters in Chicago. He signed Scott Feldman for 1 year and $6 million and that helped him get Arrieta. He signed Hammel for one year and $9 million then flipped him as part of Addison Russell deal. In Pittsburgh, they signed Liriano a couple years ago for 1 year and $6 million, and ended up re-signing him. All 3 of those pitchers signed multi-year deals the following seasons. Kennedy is coming of a year where he was 9-15 with a pedestrian 4.28 ERA. He's certainly a candidate to take a short term deal, especially if you can load it with incentives and he's more likely to take that from a team like the Brewers where he knows he'll get the innings and he basically is assured he'll end up on a contender by August.

[trwi7]

Feldman was hurt in 2011 and not very good in 2012. That's why he was available on a 1 year deal. Hammel wasn't good in 2013. That's why he was available on a 1 year deal. Liriano was hurt and ineffective. That's why he was available on a 1 year deal.

 

Samardzija was the reason the A's gave up Russell, not Hammel. Even the Cubs didn't expect Arrieta to turn into a Cy Young type pitcher.

 

Kennedy was hurt this year with a minor hamstring injury in the beginning of the season and he wasn't ineffective enough where he would only be able to find a 1 or maybe 2 year deal. So your comparisons don't really hold much water to me.

 

If there's a 1 year deal to build value at a position we don't have very much depth at and isn't blocking a young player, I'm fine with it but signing Kennedy long term isn't good value for a team in our position.

[monty57]

The Cubs had no pitching, and had to fill out a rotation by taking fliers on veterans. The Brewers have talented young pitching, so they don't have the need to throw millions of dollars on a reclamation project.

 

They have their "I hope he turns it around so we can flip him for prospects" veteran in Garza and they really don't need another. The next in line for "let's hope he has a big season and ups his trade value" is Peralta.

 

The rest of the guys should have enough team control that we just need to get them innings to see how they play before determining what their future holds.