Braun v. Maybin (and Francoeur vs. Fielder)

[Past Member]

I am not sure if this post/debate blongs in a different area, but I am sure the moderators will place it appropriately.....Anyway....

 

I am no fan of Jack Zduriencik, I am not a fan of his "high school players first" philosophy, and I have questioned all but one of the Brewers #1 Draft picks since he has been the one with the biggest impact on who the team chooses. So with that in mind, I thougt we could explore whether you would want a 2-3 tool corner infielder vs. a 4-5 tool Center Fielder.

 

I would rather always build up the middle than take anyone as high as the first three rounds on corner infielders/outfielders. I believe those types of players can be made/developed vs. simply being "born" like a guy up the middle usually is.

 

Braun will hit for power and probably average too. He filled a need for the Brewers and if his defense doesn't pan out will most likely be a LF. But with Maybin, you get speed, he has developed power and hitting for average (something scouts thought could happen but werent sure) they knew he had great defense and arm. So who would you rather have? A potential Vernon Wells type of guy roaming your CF two years out, or a guy who will put up nice numbers for you in a position that is not as important?

 

As a side note...to Colby...on an earlier post I mentioned something about Fielder being a "signable" pick, and you mentioned that you felt he was the best hitter available...(this ties into my dislike of Zduriencik), but I believe if you had asked anyone in 02 who the best hitting prospect was, they would have said Jeff Francoeur, but everyone got scared away by his committment to play football at Georgia Tech. Well, the Braves went and got him and signed him. The Brewers have a tendancy to pass on players they cant sign, and the ones they gamble on (e.g. Jamile Weeks) they dont put up what is necessary. I'm rambing here..so its time to stop the post.....but what are your thoughts on Braun vs. Maybin?

[Blazer25]

Brady,

 

I liked Maybin the most of any non-Gordon prospect that year.

 

I still to this day, think he made end up being what Ken Griffey Jr was pre-injury.

 

That being said, I like Braun and think he has a special bat. He was undoubtedly closer to the big leagues than Maybin during that draft and I think that was a big part of why the Brewers selected him. Maybin may be a perennial all-star type player in 5 years or so.

 

The thing is Ryan Braun may very well have already appeared in a few All-star games during that same time-span.

[colbyjack]

It's kind of hard to complain too much about Jack Zduriencik. No scouting director is perfect, as few picks are perfect as well. However, just look at the current team and how many players that project to be on the roster are his responsibility. By the end of the year, the entire infield may be filled with players he drafted (Braun, Hardy, Weeks, Fielder) and Corey Hart adds another in the OF. The Brewers haven't been very good at developing pitching, and fortunately Doug Melvin has scored a couple of gems via trades and waiver wire pickups.

 

Here's my interview from several years ago with Jack Zduriencik just for a little perspective:

 

www.brewerfan.net/ViewArt...icleId=126

 

From that story:

 

Quote:

---

...we'd seen a lot of Prince. We kind of thought that he might be there, but, we had a lot of needs as well. You know, "should we take a high school pitcher, should we take this guy or that guy?" As I said, some pitchers that we targeted weren't healthy come draft time and it came to, this guy, in our estimation, I said it then & I'll say it again, is the best hitter in the country. But he also had tremendous power, a pretty good combination. So, when it was all said & done, he was our pick.

---

 

When Zduriencik told me the part about Fielder being the best hitter in the country it really stood out to me. He wasn't saying "he was the best hitter that we could afford." I too liked Jeff Francoeur, but he's not a pure hitter, he doesn't work the count and he certainly doesn't know how to draw a walk. You're right, Francoeur's two-sport commitment scared a lot of teams off, not just the Brewers, otherwise there would be no way he fell to the 20s.

 

And I'm sorry, tools are great, but I'll draft a bat before I draft any other tool, and the Fielder pick taught me that more than any other individual selection.

 

From the '02 draft remembering how players were thought about then vs. now, I think the only player that you can really complain about the team passing on is Scott Kazmir, who fell for financial reasons just like Francoeur did. It was one thing to complain about the Fielder pick then, but now it seems like a waste of time.

 

And a minor note, Franceour's two-sport commitment was to Clemson, not GT.

 

Going back to the original point, I don't know how you can argue too much against Braun. The guy looks as though he's going to be one heck of a slugger, as Blazer noted, several years before Maybin will reach the big-leagues. I agree with both of your assessments that Maybin could be a pretty special player, and without a doubt 99% of the people at Brewerfan.net wanted Maybin to be the team's pick back in 2005. I don't think people were disappointed that Maybin wasn't the pick because everyone seemed to know that the Brewers really couldn't have gone wrong in the 2005 draft. It really came down to Maybin, Braun and Tulowitzki, and I think I might argue more for Tulo than Maybin.

[BillScottCanRake]

While I don't have the credentials Blazer has, I was a huge Maybin fan pre-draft, too- to the degree I had a dream the Brewers selected him (yes, I realize that I should talk to someone about that http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ). I was very disappointed by the pick.

 

That said, it's pretty hard to argue with the Braun pick, given that he is closer to the majors, and he, too, looks like a future star.

[Past Member]

I completely agree about Braun's bat. I think that he was a decent pick, and is already a big league hitter. But the question remains, wouldnt you rather have a stud Center Fielder than a pretty good corner infielder/outfielder. For me it comes down to being stacked up the middle and making do with whatever you can develop on the corners, with the exception of a great plus arm in right field.

 

For me, its fun to 2nd guess. The only pick that I have loved that Zduriencik has made has been Rickie Weeks. I was a Kazmir fan in 02, Maybin 05, Daniel Bard 06, and countless other people the crew could have taken in 04 over Rogers. And in these cases they arent even 2nd guesses. These were guys I wanted the Brewers to take pre-draft.

[Past Member]

As I look through my old notes and Baseball America's....I was a Phil Humber fan pre draft in 04, either him or Wade Townsend...I cant quite remember which one was available when the Brewers picked, but he would have been my guy.

[colbyjack]

bradyo, I will agree that ideally I would take the five-tool talent that projects to be a perennial All-Star in centerfield. Maybin has a way to go to achieve that status of course, and if the Brewers had him right now instead of Braun, I would be curious how many people would be pining to have a bat like Braun's so close to contributing.

 

While I have been following the draft since the late 80s, I really started to pay real close attention in 2000. For the fun of second guessing, here are my faves on draft day from each year since then:

 

2000: Rocco Baldelli (he didn't fall that far), Aaron Heilman (no one thought Xavier Nady would fall to the team's pick).

 

2001: My obsession with Casey Kotchman is well documented (never thought he would fall that far though), and I really liked Jeremy Sowers coming out of high school.

 

2002: Scott Moore. I really wanted Adam Loewen to fall, and I also liked Francoeur a lot, even though I knew the team wouldn't select him.

 

2003: This was a no-brainer between Young and Weeks, basicallly whoever the D-Rays didn't take, although I was one of many that hoped the Orioles wouldn't sign Loewen.

 

2004: Sowers, again, followed by Humber (didn't think he would fall though), Thomas Diamond and Chris Nelson.

 

2005: Maybin, but more than any other year I didn't really care who the Brewers took because they really couldn't go wrong. I really wanted Zimmerman to fall to the 5th pick.

 

2006: Travis Snider, another guy known for his bat (who didn't fall to the Brewers), and David Huff. It was harder to get a read on last year's draft since the team was picking in the middle of the round for the first time in I can't remember how long.

 

I have layed some hints about this year's draft, but obviously a lot needs to happen before we know who the Brewers are seriously considering for the 7th overall pick.

[Past Member]

I liiked Scott Moore too. He will be a back up this year for the Cubs. Looks like they moved him from SS to 3B though, shoot, I would much rather be a back up SS than a backup 3B with that team. I know that in the minors for a few years he faltered with the Tigers. He's only #7 on the Cubs list right now. But yeah he was a guy I liked that year too. And he was available. But I really loved Kazmir that year.

[colbyjack]

Moore was moved immediately to 3B upon being drafted. He was never viewed as a SS at the professional level. Great left-handed bat, although at the pre-draft workout at Miller Park Fielder's performance was incredible vs. Moore's rather ho-hum one. Moore really had trouble making consistent, hard contact with a wood bat in BP and against some of the talented pitchers that attended (including Dana Eveland, Khalid Ballouli and Edwin Walker). I was pleased to see him turn his career around after the Cubs picked him up, even if it is the Cubs. As noted, he really doesn't have anywhere to play for them, and he deserves a chance.

 

I have heard that the Brewers would have taken Chris Gruler at the seventh spot had the Reds not surprised almost everyone and plucked Gruler with the third overall pick (passing on Scott Kazmir, another reason he fell, because several teams assumed the Reds were going to take him). That's a very good thing for the Brewers, as Gruler's career seemed to be shorter than Mark Rogers.

 

So, if you're still angry about not taking Kazmir, or how the team missed out on Homer Bailey in 2005, remember that all teams have some pretty significant draft day blunders they can point to. Can you imagine the Reds pitching staff if they had Kazmir, Arroyo and Harang with Bailey knocking at the door?

[deeswan]

bradyo, just curious, you get on Jack Z. for drafting high school players, yet you advocate Maybin over Braun. Did you just think Maybin would be that special?

 

My $.02 here, you may not agree with Jack Z. from a philosophical standpoint, as I believe many here do not. However, I don't think you can argue with how he has rebuilt the farm system from the dark days of Sal Bando. To many it may seem like it was easy because they had so many high picks, but remember, they had a ton of high picks in the Bando years and basically did nothing with them.

[Past Member]

Let me rephrase my "high school" thought.....

 

When I said I dont agree with Jack Z's philosophy of taking high school guys over college guys, it doesnt mean I hate high school players all together. I definitely do not like how the Brewers just LOVE high school rhp's. That is the most risky pick in all of baseball (and the Brewers results with this kind of pick validates my belief (not to even touch on the matter that the organization doesnt know how, or just doesnt succeed, at developing pitching). My thought, if I were a GM (and none of us here are) is that the only HS kids I am drafting in the first three rounds are fireballing lhps, and 4 to 5 tool players up the middle. So Maybin is a high schooler yes, but he is a 5 tool CF. Mark Rogers is a high schooler as well, but he is a right handed pitcher, who on top of that issue alone, had major mechanical problems. I think there is infinitely higher risk with a right handed high school pitcher over a college one, but Jack Z just loves the high school pitcher, and what have they done for him? Nothing...that is why I do not like Jack Z.

[colbyjack]

I think it is a big misconception that prep right-handers are the riskiest group of players to take early in the draft. bradyo, I invite you to check out this story I wrote about a year ago in which I broke down all of the players taken in the first round from 1990 to 1999:

 

Draft Assessment: 1990-1999

 

In that study I determined that high school left-handed pitchers were actually the riskiest players to take, followed by prep shortstops, prep outfielders, prep righties and college lefties. However I also point out that if you decided to use these results to effect your philosophy you're going to miss out on players such as Arod, Jeter, Manny Ramirez and Chipper Jones.

 

But since you have been reluctant to see the team take prep righties, thinking they were the riskiest players to take, it should be pointed out that if you would only take players up the middle of the diamond and prep lefties, you're actually subjecting yourself to a group of players that actually has not produced on average as good of players as prep right-handed pitchers, at least not in the 1990s.

 

In addition, you also would miss out on Will Inman and Yovani Gallardo if you didn't take prep RHPs in the first three rounds (not to mention Fielder, who was covered initially in this thread).

 

I also want to point out that from that story while college players on average graded out higher than high school pitchers, the number of big leaguers (those that in my study received a grade of 6, 7 or 8) was pretty close. Prep players are more likely to burn out in the lower levels, while college players are more likely to enjoy at least a cup of coffee, which is where you get the biggest difference in the grades I handed out. The bottom line is the long-lasting big-leaguers, of which both sides are pretty close. Although I will point out that a player that has at least a cup of coffee at the big-league level has more value than a player that burns out before they see AA.

 

What these studies have told me is that it isn't about not drafting a prep righty, and only drafting college shortstops, etc., it's that it's about taking the RIGHT player, trusting your scouts to evaluate these players on an individual basis. While I'm big on tools, if I were a GM/SD, I would push my scouts to try and determine the likelihood of those tools translating to the big-leagues. For every Cameron Maybin there are 10 Chad Hermansen's, and to Hermansen's credit, he at least made it to the big-leagues for a couple of years, and for all we know at this point in time Maybin may take a similar career path.

 

I have no problem with the team drafting a prep righty, but they need to make sure they take the right one. Of Mike Jones, Mark Rogers and Jeremy Jeffress, none of them were known to command the strike zone particularly well coming out of high school, or at least that wasn't considered a perceived strength when they were drafted in the first round, and that is where I have a problem with them. The mid-90s+ heater is nice, but similar to the notion with blinding speed that you can't steal first base, a 95 mph fastball is pretty useless if it isn't consistently thrown for strikes.

[Past Member]

I couldnt agree more with your thought that it has to be the "right" guy for your team colby. But then you start to get into the thought that I had posted earlier regarding earning your bonus in the minors vs. earning it at the Major League level (like with Kazmir, or Jared Weaver or Stephen Drew, or as may be the case with Daniel Bard). Although every team misses on someone, you can only pick one player at one time, but would you rather have Daniel Bard or Jeffress, Wade Townsend or Philip Humber over Rogers, would you rather have Scott Kazmir or Prince Fielder? I just think that there is a major flaw with the way the Brewers have drafted in recent years and I wish that Mark Attanasio would have brought in a new team of scouts, player development people, etc. when he bought the team.

[colbyjack]

Then it just goes back to the results. While you can argue that the scouting department has missed on guys like Kazmir, Weaver, Drew and Bard, they have hit on so many other players. The strength from the farm has already worked its way up, and there is a lot more talent on the way. While it's a subjective ranking, the Brewers have been ranked one of the top 5-7 organizations overall the past several years when it comes to talent, and since the team isn't active in Latin America or anywhere else, that talent has come almost entirely through the draft. Looking big picture, and not at individual hits and misses, Zduriencik deserves an incredible amount of credit for that.

 

And every single team out there has their hits and misses. The Braves and the Twins, who in my mind have two of the most consistent player development departments over the last 10+ years, both have had their fair share of draft busts.

 

If Attanasio would have brought in a completely new team of scouts and player development staff he would basically have been saying that the previous group had failed, which they haven't at all. And really that is more of Doug Melvin's call than Attanasio's. If Attanasio is hiring those people the franchise is doomed. It should be pointed out that Zduriencik and his team was the only guy (and dep't.) that Melvin did retain upon replacing Dean Taylor.

 

And for the record I'm glad the team didn't take Bard. Way too inconsistent, and his fastball, while powerful, was about as straight as they come.

[Past Member]

You make good points colby. I just dont think I will ever be a Jack Z guy. I think I am more like the "good face" type of scout from Moneyball. I also believe that you can teach things like power and fielding and arm strength and can also teach a guy with a straight 100 mph pitcher to throw a cutter. And as I have this argument with my dad/coach (not my coach, but a coach), that I would rather take the guy with the pure talent and teach him the things he does not possess vs. taking the guy who you need to wait on or mess with their mechanics.

 

You have obviously done more research on the draft in the last 10 years or so, but I like the college rightie vs. the HS rightie any day of the week. Hes proven that he can withstand many more innings against better competition and is that much more mature.

 

btw, how was the Oscar Meyer (or whatever they call it now) Classic? I think the last one I was at, cant remember if I was still on the team then or not (I never dressed) was when Troy Glaus was at UCLA and they played the Gophs.

[colbyjack]

I think I am more like the "good face" type of scout from Moneyball. I also believe that you can teach things like power and fielding and arm strength and can also teach a guy with a straight 100 mph pitcher to throw a cutter. And as I have this argument with my dad/coach (not my coach, but a coach), that I would rather take the guy with the pure talent and teach him the things he does not possess vs. taking the guy who you need to wait on or mess with their mechanics.

 

That's an interesting comment, because I think for the most part your stated philosophy is very similar to Jack Zduriencik's. He too would rather take the guy that is high on tools believing that the player development department can teach these players the finer aspects of the game. The only difference you state there is the mechanical issue, and few pitchers enter pro ball without having to work on something significantly wrong with their delivery.

 

While I agree that you can teach fielding, I disagree that you can teach power (hitting) and arm strength. You can help a player recognize what they need to do to hit for more power, but if a player doesn't have natural, raw power potential, it isn't very likely that player is going to develop usable power down the road.

 

And you can have players work on their arm strength through long toss and other methods until you're blue in the face, but some players just have a ceiling for how hard they can throw, and that actually somewhat contradicts what you're saying about tools.

 

You have obviously done more research on the draft in the last 10 years or so, but I like the college rightie vs. the HS rightie any day of the week. Hes proven that he can withstand many more innings against better competition and is that much more mature.

 

Trust me, I'm not trying to defend the picks of HS righties. I am on record more than 100 times I'm sure expressing how much I didn't care for the Rogers selection given the other players available. Jeffress didn't bug me because I felt the team got a terrific value in him at the 16th slot (as opposed to the 5th), but if that pick were up to me I would have taken someone else. Jones bugged me because Casey Kotchman was still available at a time when the Brewers really need some impact bats in their system.

 

However, college arms aren't exactly indestructable. Look no further than Wade Townsend, Phillip Humber and Brad Lincoln, all three whose careers have been and/or currently are side-tracked due to arm problems. Just because a pitcher has tossed more innings in college and gotten past the so-called "injury nexus" doesn't mean they're any less likely to fall to injury. All things even, without a doubt I take the college arm.

 

As for the DQ Classic, I didn't make it this year due to the weather. The Citadel didn't make it, so the Gophers had to re-schedule the weekend, playing two against Ole Miss on Saturday and two against Arkansas on Sunday. The Gophers went 2-2 on the weekend, splitting both double-headers. Arkansas LHP had the best performance of the weekend, tossing a one-run CG agaist the Gophers on Sunday.

[BillScottCanRake]

A couple of comments from someone who is far from a draft expert, so take these for what they are worth.

 

My impression of Jack Z is that he is a bit of a risk-taker (a calculated risk-taker might be a better description) at times, especially in the first round, because he is confident that he's going to acquire a lot of talent from round 1 thru round 50. He feels like he can try to hit a home run with guys like Rogers, Jones, and Jeffress (guys with tools that need some refining) because he can find guys like Corey Hart in the 11th round of the draft.

 

I'd be much more upset with those selections had Jack Z and the rest of the scouting department not found talent outside the first couple of rounds.

 

From my point of view, it's difficult to be too upset with a few first round misses (even if they seem pretty obvious) when he's had so many hits over all.

[colbyjack]

You summed it up really well Chris. Zduriencik definitely is looking to hit a home run with his early picks, and that is why it is all about the tools.

[UWRyan428]

I like how. when comparing Braun to Maybin, you say that Braun has 2-3 tools while Maybin has all five. For comparisons sake, I would take Braun's average AND Power over Maybin's. Braun's speed is only slightly lower than Maybin's, and his arm is but a notch below as well (while Braun's power would put Maybin to shame at present). Braun's overal athleticism should allow him to stay at third, which means he is but one notch below Maybin on the defensive spectrum. Given that he is much closer to the majors, and he already comes equipped with a ready-made MLB quality bat (honed as the Frosh of the Year), I don't think you can say Jack made the wrong pick. And for reference, I actually wanted Braun over Zimmerman, and still think that Zim is going to have the worst career of Braun, Gordon, and Zim, which will probably open up another debate.

[DHonks]

I am no draft expert, but I've chimed in come draft time for several years.

 

I really am excited by Braun, but a part is because of the character he showed me in the AFL. Of all the Brewers players to come through the league the last 3 years, Braun, Gwynn, and Rottino were by far the most cordial. I still can't believe that while I was cleaning something, Braun made a point to come over to me (after seeing my shirt) and saying "hi there, I see you're a Brewers' fan. I'm Ryan, Ryan Braun."

 

I like HS players, as they often have high ceilings, and--at least for a few years when other teams were shifting to college pitchers--it was more likely to get the top prep pitchers.

 

As much as I don't advocate drafting for need, it can be important to note that sometimes keeping in mind your surpluses is important. The Brewers currently have Hall, Clark, Gross, Hart, Gwynn, Nix, Moss, Fermaint, Cain, Brantley, Ford, etc, that profile as possible CF-types. At least a few of them should become solid big leaguers, and most feature very good defense. Yet the organization has little depth at 1b, ss, and 3b. Additionally, there exists the possibility that they would then have at least average offense and defense in CF. But drafting a CF over Braun would have given us a potential star in CF, but still left the Brewers with a huge void at 3b. Braun profiles to be an allstar caliber 3b.

 

In the case of Braun, in hindsight, I can't fathom passing on him to take Maybin.

 

There's players I've really wanted that they've passed on, and I hope they succeed, but I just accept that I don't have the full knowledge and experience of Jack Z. I still contend that when watching the scouting videos of Townsend, Humber, Niemann, Bailey, Rogers, and Sowers, that I would have taken the HS righties or Sowers because of mechanics. I had no problem with Rogers after watching his video. Yet that's probably our most controversial pick of late

[GagneCY03]

I think Maybin was getting just a little too much hype pre-draft and, while he he's a great prospect, he's not head and shoulders ahead of Braun. I prefer Maybin, given his defensive position, but Braun certainly isnt simply a consolation prize. He's a legit bat (Though the hitch in his load worries me) with plus speed. He should be productive even as a LF.

[TooLiveBrew]

Quote:

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I believe if you had asked anyone in 02 who the best hitting prospect was, they would have said Jeff Francoeur

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Not to hijack the thread, but this is pretty short-term thinking. Was Francoeur the better hitter at that moment? Perhaps, maybe probably.

 

Isn't it safe to say the Brewers' scouting assessment was right-on? Francoeur has almost zero patience at the plate (2006: 651 ABs, 23BB/132K), while Fielder continues to develop his discipline, patience, and power.

 

Francoeur has an incredible arm and decent range in the OF, I'll grant that advantage over Prince. But at the plate these two are no longer comparable players, IMHO

[Past Member]

Quote:

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Isn't it safe to say the Brewers' scouting assessment was right-on? Francoeur has almost zero patience at the plate (2006: 651 ABs, 23BB/132K), while Fielder continues to develop his discipline, patience, and power.

---

 

TLB,

 

I tend to view "patience" or OBA as two of the most overrated qualities/stats in all of baseball. I am not saying that they are useless qualities, or that they are not good to have, but if you are judging a guy and basing your assesment on his ability to take a walk, or work the count, well I think that you will miss the value in many players.

 

A hit is ALWAYS better than a walk. Most times, the best pitch a hitter will see is the first pitch. Why would a hitter want to look at a few, work the count, be patient, if each successive pitch will be worse for the hitter to hit? I would much rather have a 3, 4 or 5 hitter who hits the ball, who drives pitches where they are pitched, one who takes the bat off of his shoulder, than one who has patience. I believe that one of the worst moves ever made was the A's getting rid of Miguel Tejada because he was a free swinger and couldnt take a walk. He is one of the most productive SS in the game today (at least over the last 7 years or so).

 

So sure, Francoeur had an off year last year, but he still drove in over 100 runs and hit 29 HR. But you hit the nail on the head when you say he has a cannon arm and good range in the outfield, to go with his power. And, he has exhibited that he can hit for average. His skills far outweigh those held by Prince Fielder.

[colbyjack]

Francoeur's skills do not far outweigh those of Prince Fielder. His overall athleticism and defensive tools may outweigh Fielder's, but his bat does not. I guarantee you that Fielder will out-hit, out-slug, out-walk, out-homer Francoeur almost every single year that they are in the game together.

 

And while I agree that getting a hit is more important than drawing a walk, I could not disagree more with you on your view about how patience is overrated. It isn't the only thing I use to judge a player, but if a guy can't work the count and doesn't get on base a fair amount of times via the base on balls, more often than not that player is going to struggle in other facets of his offensive game. OBP as many will tell you on the MLB forum is all about NOT making outs, which really is the key of the game offensively (just like creating outs is the key of the ptiching staff and defense).

 

I would agree that teaching patience is easier than teaching someone how to hit. I too would take the better pure hitter 10 times out of 10 over the guy that can kind of hit but draws a mean walk.

 

And I disagree that the first pitch is the best pitch to hit. Sometimes it is, but not most times, not by a long shot. The Brewers preach patience, at all levels, teaching their hitters that they will be more successful as hitters if they do work the count and put themselves in better hitting counts. The "see ball hit ball" mentality is part of the reason the Lopes/Royster regime failed miserably.

 

Good luck trying to make any of these points on a forum that is more frequently read than this one.

[TooLiveBrew]

Quote:

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A hit is ALWAYS better than a walk. Most times, the best pitch a hitter will see is the first pitch. Why would a hitter want to look at a few, work the count, be patient, if each successive pitch will be worse for the hitter to hit? I would much rather have a 3, 4 or 5 hitter who hits the ball, who drives pitches where they are pitched, one who takes the bat off of his shoulder, than one who has patience.

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A hit is not always better than a walk. That's asinine to suggest. You obviously ignore the value in making a pitcher pitch -- aside from the plain fact that a single has entirely equal value to a BB w/o runners on base. It works not just for the 'right now' at bat (which seems the only way you analyze), or the 'right now batter'; it works for his teammates, and himself when he comes up again.

 

It wears pitchers down to have a team full of guys that work the count. That's just simple arithmetic. Seeing more pitches does so many more things than just draw walks, and I think that's obvious. Do you want a player that will go out and hit? Obviously; but until you can get around your 'can't wait' mentality, you take your Jeff Francoeurs and I'll take my Prince Fielders, thank you very much.

 

The best pitch a hitter sees is the one he's looking for. This is done by analyzing a pitcher's pattern(s), and anticipating his pitch selection. Yes, you have to hit the ball where it's pitched, but when you're looking offspeed, have made the pitcher throw 4 or 5 pitches in that AB, and he hangs a breaking ball -- that's where the big runs are scored. Aside from that, just being ready for a guy's heat or offspeed makes the batter much more effective. So going up to hack 0-0, hoping you get that 'get me over pitch' is a gamble, and Brewer fans have seen that mentality fail all too often in the past.

Quote:

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Francoeur's skills do not far outweigh those of Prince Fielder. His overall athleticism and defensive tools may outweigh Fielder's, but his bat does not. I guarantee you that Fielder will out-hit, out-slug, out-walk, out-homer Francoeur almost every single year that they are in the game together.

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Colby, this is exactly what I meant.