Can we stop winning please

[Bombers]

Ha - I knew this thread would be met with harsh criticism. It's all good. I rooted the same way when the Packers ended up with the 5th overall pick 10 years ago. As Casey said, I am just hoping the baseball gods toss a little bad luck our way. Of course I want the young guys to do well. But I would leave Garza out there and let him continue tossing batting practice. Thanks for the losses Matt!

 

As Young Guns, Paul253 said every win sends us in the opposite direction for our consolation prize for 5 months of bad baseball. In 2013 we finished September at 15-12 and a final run of 6-2. That final run gave us the 10th pick instead of the 6th pick. To me, I would take the 6th overall pick vs going 6-2 in the last week of the season where the season has been lost months ago.

[QuevedosTongue]

It's not about where the Brewers pick, it's about the player they pick in that spot. The MLB draft is far from a sure thing at any spot, it's on the Brewers to draft and develop whatever player they get.

 

The best player in the 2003 draft (Brewers take Rickie Weeks #2) is Adam Jones, who was taken 37th.

Mike Trout was the 25th pick in 2009.

Madison Bumgarner was picked 10th in 2007.

 

Earlier pick does not equal best player. The important thing is to have a solid staff in place to draft the right player and develop him.

[brewcrewdue80]

Come on now how can the Braves be at 12 losses in a row and counting and no one believe teams can tank? Look, just throw Lohse in the 6th inning leave all your pitches up in the zone until you've given up 2 runs. Tanking is easy in baseball it's in the pitching. Yeah allow the batters to play hard, but you have these lame ducks of a RP core in this now Sept expanded roster. Go have them leave a hanging Curveball for a 3run HR and sudden loss of the lead. That's if your Starting pitcher has pitched too well. Jeesh It's 1-19 in their last 20 games. Losing seems to be their agenda. #1 pick to plug away with new Stadium selling? The Rockies have 2 of the best hitters in Baseball right now in Cargo and Arenado but have just 1 RP with under 4ERA with over 20IP. Come on 1 RP. Brewers have 4 alone with under 3ERA over 40IP. 7 under 4ERA over 20IP.

 

Counsell needs to rest Smith/Jeffress/Knebel and pitch Lohse+Pena giving them 7th/8th innings every other game. Garza had he not punked out with his SP only sentiment...He should be suspended by the team w/o pay the rest of the season.

[splitterpfj]

If it makes people feel any better, I'm sure the Cubs and the Cardinals will push the Brewers around plenty down the stretch.

 

We're done with the Phillies, the Reds have out-horribled us, and honestly, I love the fact that Pittsburgh can't figure the Brewers out. If you add the Marlins to the mix, the Brewers just got a bunch of, "winnable" games at once.

 

There are plenty of good prospects coming in next year's draft, but there is no Ken Griffey Jr, or Bryce Harper, the franchise will not crash into the sun if they pick 10th instead of 3rd.

 

I love it when diehard fans plead for fewer wins ... now I hope we have a top ten pick, and thus, we hand out a dumb free agent contract, because our pick is protected. Things like this make for great reading.

[AKCheesehead]

I know that we play the cubs 6 out of the last 13 games of the season, and they have a 7 game lead over the Washington right now. You had better believe that I want to see the Brewers win down the stretch.

[1992casey]

Look, just throw Lohse in the 6th inning leave all your pitches up in the zone until you've given up 2 runs.

 

A team can continue to play poorly performing veterans, and it can play young players who are likely to take their lumps. But intentionally having pitchers leave all pitches up in the zone is going to cause a boatload of trouble.

[clancyphile]

I'm of two minds.

 

Part of me wants the better pick (and the additional slot money)... but in game like today's, where a young pitcher (Davies) delivers big (7 IP, 1 run), and Lind and Khris Davis increase their trade value, I don't mind that sort of win.

[umphrey]

Anyone can cherry pick counter examples but it's not rocket science to know that higher pick = better odds and higher draft budget. The last draft I followed closely was 2014 and there was a pretty big drop after the 4th player taken in that one. 2013 it was really the top 3. 2012 had a really strong top 2 and then was pretty deep through 11. Most years there has been a pretty big difference between a top 3 pick and 7-8 pick but it really depends on the class.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/draft/draft.jsp#season=2014&player_name=&draft_type=JR&draft_team=&draft_round=&page=1&sort_order=&sorted_by=

[paul253]

Anyone can argue "it's not about where you pick its about who you pick". And while true I could counter by saying "well it doesn't matter if you pick first overall or sign a bunch of FAs and don't pick til the fourth round. You can still get a good player in the fourth round". Again that's true but we are talking about liklihood. The liklihood of getting a better player is higher if you pick sooner.

 

As far as tanking goes. I don't think you necessarily have to try to lose. But maybe don't continue to throw Braun Lind and Lucroy out there every single day while younger guys like Rogers sit on the bench. I don't think Linds trade value is going to suddenly sky rocket if he finishes with 20 home runs vs 18. I just don't see the need to play for wins the same way now that you would in April or May. In April or May we still had a chance of turning this into a successful season. Now not so much.

[FVBrewerFan]

Great win by Davies. Another nice outing by Thornburg. Santana gets on base 3 times again. Segura stays hot. All of this must be horrible news to some of you guys.

[danzig6767]

Ideally I'd rather the team lost a few extra close games going forward if it meant a higher pick, but you can't go about intentionally increasing the odds of losing games by sitting your better players. Losing has to come by simply losing because the teams you are facing play better.

 

With Garza shelved, the rotation will be all younger pitchers. The bullpen can't be managed in a way to increase the odds of losing instead of winning, the players would pick up on that quickly.

 

The issue in regards to wanting more losses is that this team just isn't terrible talent wise, so they weren't going to keep losing at a high rate as happened earlier in the season. Nothing can be done about that, so the team will finish where it finishes, but with the rest of September almost entirely filled with games against Pirates/Cubs/Cardinals, there likely will be more losses than wins.

[paul253]

"Great win by Davies. Another nice outing by Thornburg. Santana gets on base 3 times again. Segura stays hot. All of this must be horrible news to some of you guys."

 

Can you at least try to understand the argument?

[FVBrewerFan]

"Great win by Davies. Another nice outing by Thornburg. Santana gets on base 3 times again. Segura stays hot. All of this must be horrible news to some of you guys."

 

Can you at least try to understand the argument?

 

Everyone understands the argument. This is nothing new, people have brought it up back in May already. I went into more detail in my original post in this thread, so yes this last one was short and sweet. But I still stand by it. For you and others that want losses, it would have been better for your cause if Davies got rocked.

[danzig6767]

"Great win by Davies. Another nice outing by Thornburg. Santana gets on base 3 times again. Segura stays hot. All of this must be horrible news to some of you guys."

 

Can you at least try to understand the argument?

I think it goes without saying that if you were to ask Brewers fans, would you rather pick say 5th in the next draft or 12th, nearly all would say 5th.

 

That said, a sizable percentage of sports fans simply can't cheer for their team to lose. It's just not in their DNA to do so and nothing will change their minds on that, even more so when young players like Davies and others are playing well in wins.

 

You won't change their minds anymore than they'll get you to cheer for the Brewers to finish the season winning more games than they lose.

 

If i had my way the younger players would play pretty well going forward, but the team would lose more close games than they won to improve the draft position. I won't fret that much though if the team wins more than losing mainly because it's baseball and not the NBA where in that sport, landing a near surefire star with a top 2-3 pick can turn around a franchise nearly by himself.

[homer]

If the Brewers were just playing out the string with a bunch of old vets I wouldn't care. But they are playing young guys with bright futures in some cases. I want to see them do well.

[paul253]

Davies doesn't have to get rocked in order for the Brewers to lose. It's not an "either the young guys all suck and don't develop or we win a bunch of games" scenario. Davies can still go out there and pitch great and we could still lose.

 

Believe it or not I want the young guys to develop too. I just don't think we need to continue to throw out our veteran players every day. The catching position is hard on the body and Lucroy is approaching 30. Would it really be the end of the world to let Maldonado play a couple of times a week? Is that going to prevent Davies and Santana from developing? Would it kill us to let Jason Rogers play every day to see how he handles it and see if he could possibly be our first baseman next year? Adam Lind is, at most, is here one more year. And he probably should be traded this offseason if we really are going to commit to a rebuild. So shouldn't we maybe possibly see if we have a decent replacement? Braun has had plenty of nagging injuries over his career. Would sitting him two or three times a week somehow ruin the season? Would letting Jeffress or smith try to close out a game destroy the franchise? Does KRod have to close games because he's our "closer"? He should be another guy that is traded in the offseason so wouldn't it be cool to get one of them at least a little experience closing games so we don't have to spend millions of dollars on a free agent with closing experience?

 

There are plenty of things this team could do to build toward the future that they aren't doing because they are still playing for the present. I am not cheering for Davies to get shelled so we lose. It's awesome to see one run in seven innings. But when I look at the box score and see Braun Lucroy and Lind all in the lineup I just kind of wonder why.

[splitterpfj]

I get it, obviously I'm going to wish the Brewers had the first pick on draft day, but I can't do it. If I managed a team and I was told to sit my best guys 2-3 days a week for the sake of the next year's draft, there is no doubt, I would say things that would cost me my job.

 

As for, "cherry picking", trust me, both, "sides" will always do that after the fact, it goes with draft discussion, and that's fine with me.

 

Here's to, "getting it right", when the Brewers' picks come up, in the meantime, I will positively root for the Brewers to win.

[3and2Fastball]

If the season ended right now, the Brewers would still have the #7 pick in the draft.

[FVBrewerFan]

Fair enough Paul, and I agree a lot of that. Rogers should be playing more, Herrera not at all for example. What you outlined is all worth discussion, but OP presented it as "lets lose all we can."

[brewcrewdue80]

It doesn't take nothing but pitches left up every pitch, It's just leaving a 2-0 FB up to one batter. Here's the standing at the Moment. 7th. 4.5games to pick 14th. 3.5 to pick 5th. The team has now crossed where it's More likely now they pick outside the top 10 than inside. And certainly stand very little chance of a top 4. 5th-14th. Small Market team, gets built by the draft...Lohse and Garza are proof of that.

 

To the Rogers calling for play. I'm thinking the Brewers extend Lind at 1st base especially with this run. 3/33mil...Maybe go 4/45mil. I'm probably dreaming at that price but he should be manning 1b if the Brewers want to be competitive there. He's a Lefty bat in a Righty dominant lineup. High OB. I don't see Rogers having any future but as an emergency backup for Lind. Braun/Lind has just been such a great combo let's face it. The team should move forward and keep it together through 2019 or 2020.

[paul253]

Rogers is a career .290/.372/.488 hitter in the minors. If he was three years younger he'd be a top ten organizational prospect. The way I see it is that he's not flexible enough to be a bench guy. He's a first baseman. If he's not our starter I personally don't think he should on the roster. So let's see if he can cut it.

 

As far as Lind goes he is precisely the type of player we need to move away from. We don't need to be paying him $11 million a year for the next four years, particularly since he can't hit lefties.

[Mass Haas]

My guess is that nearly all the tank fans aren't watching games live right now. They check the box scores later on and then are upset at the final score.

 

Then they'll say they wanted Zach Davies to do well, but wanted one of the relievers to lose the game instead.

 

If they were watching the game at a pub with me and started muttering about that in the 8th inning, openly rooting for a loss -- heck, let's not let Zach get that first win after all, let's just say next drink's not on me.

[jerichoholicninja]

They are playing all the worst teams in the NL in a row. Of course they are going to win a few games.

[danzig6767]

Davies doesn't have to get rocked in order for the Brewers to lose. It's not an "either the young guys all suck and don't develop or we win a bunch of games" scenario. Davies can still go out there and pitch great and we could still lose.

 

Believe it or not I want the young guys to develop too. I just don't think we need to continue to throw out our veteran players every day. The catching position is hard on the body and Lucroy is approaching 30. Would it really be the end of the world to let Maldonado play a couple of times a week? Is that going to prevent Davies and Santana from developing? Would it kill us to let Jason Rogers play every day to see how he handles it and see if he could possibly be our first baseman next year? Adam Lind is, at most, is here one more year. And he probably should be traded this offseason if we really are going to commit to a rebuild. So shouldn't we maybe possibly see if we have a decent replacement? Braun has had plenty of nagging injuries over his career. Would sitting him two or three times a week somehow ruin the season? Would letting Jeffress or smith try to close out a game destroy the franchise? Does KRod have to close games because he's our "closer"? He should be another guy that is traded in the offseason so wouldn't it be cool to get one of them at least a little experience closing games so we don't have to spend millions of dollars on a free agent with closing experience?

 

There are plenty of things this team could do to build toward the future that they aren't doing because they are still playing for the present. I am not cheering for Davies to get shelled so we lose. It's awesome to see one run in seven innings. But when I look at the box score and see Braun Lucroy and Lind all in the lineup I just kind of wonder why.

The Reds are still playing Votto, Frazier, Phillips, and Bruce every day. Colorado is playing their regulars. Pretty much every team in baseball is still playing their regular players and not shutting down veteran closers, including a lot of teams who either have zero shot at making the playoffs or who would need a near miracle to make the playoffs.

 

I agree with you that guys like Lind and K-Rod should be shopped hard in the offseason, but i don't think anything can happen in this last few weeks which would play a big factor on whether they are shopped.

 

The Brewers will have a new GM soon. If Attanasio allows that new GM to set the direction for the franchise next year and beyond with little interference, that guy won't decide to trade or keep guys like K-Rod/Lind based on the last three weeks of this season, even if their playing time was reduced and younger guys got more action in those spots. That new GM could also have Attanasio tell him not to trade multiple productive veterans given it's very clear that Attanasio isn't the type of owner who mainly just let's his GM dictate things on his own.

 

That GM hire and what degree of authority/power Attanasio allows is by far the most important thing which will happen this offseason and in turn will dictate what type of moves are made this offseason in a wide variety of ways. Between having a new GM, a much better farm system, young guys ready to compete for jobs next year, and a number of productive veterans like Lind, Lucroy, K-Rod, along with Segura/Davis who all could draw interest, this looks to be the most interesting offseason in a long time.

[Bombers]

My guess is that nearly all the tank fans aren't watching games live right now. They check the box scores later on and then are upset at the final score.

 

Then they'll say they wanted Zach Davies to do well, but wanted one of the relievers to lose the game instead.

 

If they were watching the game at a pub with me and started muttering about that in the 8th inning, openly rooting for a loss -- heck, let's not let Zach get that first win after all, let's just say next drink's not on me.

That might be so but I watched Davies start and am rooting for the kid. I am one on this board who thinks he can be a SP and not just a relief guy.

 

As others have said though, I am just hoping the baseball gods toss a little bad luck our way in those close games.