Garza done starting for the season

[wrbest]

They should trade Garza in the offseason for Sabathia. They are both still owed about 25 Million. If Garza doesn't want to be here then you don't need him around the younger players. I know that C.C. has gone down hill with his pitching but I think that he would provide a great leadership presence and the fans would love to see him in a brewer uniform one more time to show their appreciation for what he did for the club in 2008. Maybe he could even transition to a job with the organization if he doesn't regain his form next year.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

The video is worth listening to since he isn't just raging at the cameras. The words still bother me though.

Garza is right. I don't ever remember a situation like his... Normally teams demote you to the bullpen or release you. I don't recall a team giving you the option to take the rest of the year off. I think he should appreciate how the team is treating him. Edwin jackson is a good comparison. Demoted to bullpen late last year then released this year.

 

We don't know how the conversation went so I will hold off on making long term judgements on him. Hes obviously is upset and is stupid to make public remarks when angry. He has the offseason to think it over. If he comes back apologetic and ready for a fresh start I can accept that.

[pacopete4]

They should trade Garza in the offseason for Sabathia. They are both still owed about 25 Million. If Garza doesn't want to be here then you don't need him around the younger players. I know that C.C. has gone down hill with his pitching but I think that he would provide a great leadership presence and the fans would love to see him in a brewer uniform one more time to show their appreciation for what he did for the club in 2008. Maybe he could even transition to a job with the organization if he doesn't regain his form next year.

 

I don't think the Brewers could take the risk of him actually staying healthy next year and costing another $25m in 2017 as well. As much as I love CC, I just don't think this makes sense with our current team.

[wrbest]

My bad. I didn't realize that C.C. is guaranteed 25 mil for 2017 just for being healthy next year. You're right Brew4U, it would not be a wise move. That's a shame, would be nice to see the big guy in a brewer uniform again.

[logan82]

The video is worth listening to since he isn't just raging at the cameras. The words still bother me though.

Garza is right. I don't ever remember a situation like his... Normally teams demote you to the bullpen or release you. I don't recall a team giving you the option to take the rest of the year off. I think he should appreciate how the team is treating him. Edwin jackson is a good comparison. Demoted to bullpen late last year then released this year.

 

We don't know how the conversation went so I will hold off on making long term judgements on him. Hes obviously is upset and is stupid to make public remarks when angry. He has the offseason to think it over. If he comes back apologetic and ready for a fresh start I can accept that.

They gave him the option to pitch out of the pen. He declined.

[jerichoholicninja]

Give the guy some time to cool down. You can't blame him for being angry about the situation. Everyone is making a bigger deal about this than it really is. He's a competitor who's had a terrible year and this is a whole season's worth of frustrations coming out. Ultimately Garza's reaction is, and will be going forward, a non-story. He'll be back in the rotation in 2016.

[Pugger]

They should trade Garza in the offseason for Sabathia. They are both still owed about 25 Million. If Garza doesn't want to be here then you don't need him around the younger players. I know that C.C. has gone down hill with his pitching but I think that he would provide a great leadership presence and the fans would love to see him in a brewer uniform one more time to show their appreciation for what he did for the club in 2008. Maybe he could even transition to a job with the organization if he doesn't regain his form next year.

 

CC hasn't been very good this year either. We have friends who are ardent Yankee fans and they have no use for him now.

[SRB]

Let's be realistic here, they didn't take him out of the rotation because he has been so awful that they couldn't keep starting him. We are in rebuild mode and it would actually work in our favor to lose more games. That is 100% just an excuse to take away starts so his option is less likely to vest. He is justifiably mad because they are exploiting a contractual provision that was supposed to be about health to stop him from gaining starts even though he is healthy. (I don't like Garza that much though, so oh well, sorry dude.)

[MNBrew]

Whatever the unspoken motivations and frustrations -- on both sides, for sure -- the fact is that his starts have again become like Lohse's, in which he consistently gives up 2-3 baserunners per inning and the Brewers again are playing from behind. Like Lohse, Garza's been getting in early trouble and it spirals out control quickly and he hasn't been able to stop the bleeding once it starts, and that caliber of performance on nearly a season-long basis is grounds for removal from the rotation.

 

Whatever else is not being said, the "public" face of this does pass the smell test for honesty. Combine that it's September and the Brewers are hopelessly out of contention, that Garza's currently the team's worst SP by far, and that the Brewers have some young guys they want to see start more than once, and the result is exactly what's happening.

 

I think it shows some sensitivity if not class on the organization's part that they'd even give him the option to choose between pitching out of the bullpen vs. not at all, that the Brewers would even consider allowing the latter to be an option.

 

The other layers being discussed may be there as well, may even be the the primary motivations for this decision, but in pure fact that's still sheer speculation.

[Thurston Fluff]

Let's be realistic here, they didn't take him out of the rotation because he has been so awful that they couldn't keep starting him. We are in rebuild mode and it would actually work in our favor to lose more games. That is 100% just an excuse to take away starts so his option is less likely to vest. He is justifiably mad because they are exploiting a contractual provision that was supposed to be about health to stop him from gaining starts even though he is healthy. (I don't like Garza that much though, so oh well, sorry dude.)

 

I have no sympathy for a player who doesn't live up to his contract and the team uses a loophole to reduce the damage done by said poor performance. Teams can't get out of contracts signed by PED users even though the team didn't know he was on PEDs without specific language stating such.

While we all know that clause was put in there for health reasons it doesn't specify that is the only reason. If he didn't specifically add that to the clause then it's on him and his agent not the Brewers.

[DHonks]

What never got much press is that Garza had a great stretch following the all-star break. He's a solid veteran and bounce back candidate.

[clancyphile]

What never got much press is that Garza had a great stretch following the all-star break. He's a solid veteran and bounce back candidate.

 

That may be true. But right now, what is better, getting a bounce-back from Garza, or seeing what Jorge Ortega and Brent Suter can do?

[SRB]

I have no sympathy for a player who doesn't live up to his contract and the team uses a loophole to reduce the damage done by said poor performance. Teams can't get out of contracts signed by PED users even though the team didn't know he was on PEDs without specific language stating such.

While we all know that clause was put in there for health reasons it doesn't specify that is the only reason. If he didn't specifically add that to the clause then it's on him and his agent not the Brewers.

 

It's not on his agents. Contracts in baseball are not supposed to be performance based. That's what the MLBPA has fought for. I personally don't have any sympathy for a millionaire baseball player getting screwed out of being a larger millionaire, but I can still understand why Garza would be mad.

[hawing]

What never got much press is that Garza had a great stretch following the all-star break. He's a solid veteran and bounce back candidate.

None of us knows how much Matt has left in the tank, but I'm open to finding out after the offseason. While his reaction yesterday (maybe a knee jerk reaction, though maybe not if they were talking about this earlier in the week) holds some cause for concern, I'd frankly be more concerned if he weren't upset about his season in the rotation coming to an early end.

[markedman5]

"Refused to pitch out of the bullpen"

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/matt-garza-refused-to-pitch-out-of-the-bullpen/

[clancyphile]

What never got much press is that Garza had a great stretch following the all-star break. He's a solid veteran and bounce back candidate.

None of us knows how much Matt has left in the tank, but I'm open to finding out after the offseason. While his reaction yesterday (maybe a knee jerk reaction, though maybe not if they were talking about this earlier in the week) holds some cause for concern, I'd frankly be more concerned if he weren't upset about his season in the rotation coming to an early end.

 

Deal him for one of the competitive balance picks.

 

Deal K-Rod for another.

[jerichoholicninja]

"Refused to pitch out of the bullpen"

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/matt-garza-refused-to-pitch-out-of-the-bullpen/

 

I'll play devil's advocate on this one. He's been a starter his whole career. To ask him to do something he's never done before for the last 3 weeks of the season seems a little unreasonable. Putting him in the mopup role wouldn't do any good for him as he probably doesn't know how to prepare for pitching a completely random schedule.

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, if the organization flat out told him he was going to pitch out of the bullpen I'm going to side with Matt on this one. It's not like Lohse who's not coming back next year and he needed to do something to make sure he has a job somewhere in 2016. Matt is signed to be here and the organization should have just told him to shut it down and get healed up and fresh for next year since he will be counted on to hold down a rotation spot or at least pitch well enough to be traded. Like I said earlier, putting Garza in the bullpen does absolutely nothing to help him or the organization.

[1992casey]

"Refused to pitch out of the bullpen"

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/matt-garza-refused-to-pitch-out-of-the-bullpen/

This is like the exercise where we all sit in a circle. I whisper something to jerichoholicninja, who whispers the message to clancy, who whispers the message to markedman5, who whispers the message to hawing, etc. The message finally gets back to me and it's completely different.

 

Here's how Drew Silva directly references the article by Adam McCalvy.

 

Fair enough, but now comes word from MLB.com’s Adam McCalvy that the Brewers asked Garza to pitch out of the bullpen for the final three weeks of the regular season and he flat out refused.

Adam tells it slightly — but significantly — differently.

 

Garza, 6-14 this season with a 5.63 ERA, refused an offer to pitch out of the bullpen.

"Asked Garza to pitch out of the bullpen" implies that the Brewers made a direct request for him to so so. "Refused an offer to pitch out of the bullpen" indicates that Garza turned down an optional opportunity.

 

Todd Rosiak paraphrases Doug Melvin. His take is more in line with McCalvy's.

 

Melvin also said Garza was offered the chance to pitch out of the bullpen for the rest of the year, a situation Kyle Lohse faced when he was removed from the rotation in early August.

 

Garza declined, however.

The moral of the story is that you have to investigate what you read because writers don't necessarily care about accuracy.

[logan82]

Let him rest and hope he comes back good next year. Trading him now would be a terrible idea unless the return is good. The team has money, what we want is talent. Pay Garza until we can get good talent back or his contract is up.

[jerichoholicninja]

"Refused to pitch out of the bullpen"

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/matt-garza-refused-to-pitch-out-of-the-bullpen/

This is like the exercise where we all sit in a circle. I whisper something to jerichoholicninja, who whispers the message to clancy, who whispers the message to markedman5, who whispers the message to hawing, etc. The message finally gets back to me and it's completely different.

 

Here's how Drew Silva directly references the article by Adam McCalvy.

 

Fair enough, but now comes word from MLB.com’s Adam McCalvy that the Brewers asked Garza to pitch out of the bullpen for the final three weeks of the regular season and he flat out refused.

Adam tells it slightly — but significantly — differently.

 

Garza, 6-14 this season with a 5.63 ERA, refused an offer to pitch out of the bullpen.

"Asked Garza to pitch out of the bullpen" implies that the Brewers made a direct request for him to so so. "Refused an offer to pitch out of the bullpen" indicates that Garza turned down an optional opportunity.

 

Todd Rosiak paraphrases Doug Melvin. His take is more in line with McCalvy's.

 

Melvin also said Garza was offered the chance to pitch out of the bullpen for the rest of the year, a situation Kyle Lohse faced when he was removed from the rotation in early August.

 

Garza declined, however.

The moral of the story is that you have to investigate what you read because writers don't necessarily care about accuracy.

 

The way I read it when I first saw it was that he was told he was out of the rotation but if he wanted to pitch out of the bullpen he could. Somehow that became Garza refusing to play. I'm not sure which is true but it seems like writers are trying to make a story where there really wasn't one.

[1992casey]

I'm not sure which is true but it seems like writers are trying to make a story where there really wasn't one.

 

That's certainly a possibility as it happens often enough. I stopped short of accusing Silva of that because there wasn't tangible evidence of it. He definitely misrepresented what McCalvy reported, though. At the very least, that indicates either laziness or carelessness.

 

I remember the year that almost everyone reported Ben Sheets' free agency as being after the upcoming season rather than after the season that followed. That went on for the entire off-season. It was definitely a lesson about how we need to be skeptical when so-called facts are reported. The really stupid thing is that all anyone had to do to get it right was look at his career and count the number of seasons he had played.

[BrewCrew8682]

I have no sympathy for a player who doesn't live up to his contract and the team uses a loophole to reduce the damage done by said poor performance. Teams can't get out of contracts signed by PED users even though the team didn't know he was on PEDs without specific language stating such.

While we all know that clause was put in there for health reasons it doesn't specify that is the only reason. If he didn't specifically add that to the clause then it's on him and his agent not the Brewers.

 

It's not on his agents. Contracts in baseball are not supposed to be performance based. That's what the MLBPA has fought for. I personally don't have any sympathy for a millionaire baseball player getting screwed out of being a larger millionaire, but I can still understand why Garza would be mad.

 

I know that the most-likely reason he is being shut down here is to avoid reaching 60 starts, and that it was intended to be health-based, but I also can't imagine that such a provision should ever guarantee someone that they will be given the opportunity to reach those milestones regardless of whether they take down the team in the process. Where would you draw the line? What if we were competing next year and his ERA rose to 8? Fact is, it was intended to be health-based, but it was also implied that he would be one of the 5 best options the team had to make those starts. At this time, and for most of this year, he simply hasn't been. We can disagree on whether or not the Brewers truly feel that the look they get at the younger players is truly worth giving Garza time to straighten himself out, but maybe they currently view him as a loss? Or believe it will really take an offseason away for him to straighten himself out.

 

Edit: Also, incentives can be based upon time spent on the DL as well. If it was intended to be 100% based upon health, they could have built the incentives around that as opposed to number of starts. That requires health and some amount of performance.

[logan82]

Edit: Also, incentives can be based upon time spent on the DL as well. If it was intended to be 100% based upon health, they could have built the incentives around that as opposed to number of starts. That requires health and some amount of performance.

They do have some of the contract based around time on the DL.

 

4 years/$50M (2014-17), plus 2018 vesting option

 

signed by Milwaukee as a free agent 1/27/14

 

14-17:$12.5M annually. 18: vesting/club option

2018 option vests at $13M if Garza 1) has 110 starts in 2014-17, 2) has 115 innings in 2017 and 3) is not on the disabled list at end of 2017 season

club holds $5M option for 2018 if it does not vest at $13M

club may exercise 2018 option at $1M if Garza spends more than 130 days on disabled list in any 183-day period from 2014 to 2017

$2M annually is deferred without interest, to be paid in four installments each Dec. 15, 2018-21

annual performance bonuses: $0.5M each for 30 starts, 190 IP

[DuWayne Steurer]

What never got much press is that Garza had a great stretch following the all-star break. He's a solid veteran and bounce back candidate.

None of us knows how much Matt has left in the tank, but I'm open to finding out after the offseason. While his reaction yesterday (maybe a knee jerk reaction, though maybe not if they were talking about this earlier in the week) holds some cause for concern, I'd frankly be more concerned if he weren't upset about his season in the rotation coming to an early end.

 

Deal him for one of the competitive balance picks.

 

Deal K-Rod for another.

 

 

I suspect teams aren't exactly going to be lining up to trade those types of value picks for one of the worst starters in the majors.

[Thurston Fluff]

I have no sympathy for a player who doesn't live up to his contract and the team uses a loophole to reduce the damage done by said poor performance. Teams can't get out of contracts signed by PED users even though the team didn't know he was on PEDs without specific language stating such.

While we all know that clause was put in there for health reasons it doesn't specify that is the only reason. If he didn't specifically add that to the clause then it's on him and his agent not the Brewers.

 

It's not on his agents. Contracts in baseball are not supposed to be performance based. That's what the MLBPA has fought for. I personally don't have any sympathy for a millionaire baseball player getting screwed out of being a larger millionaire, but I can still understand why Garza would be mad.

 

Yes it is. They are the ones who negotiate the contract. Making sure all the i's are dotted and the t's crosses is a major part of their job. They add all kinds of crazy things in them. AS far as them not supposed to be performance based I don't know where you are getting that from. Alex Rodriquez has incentives if he hits certain career milestones. A lot of players have all star bonuses in their contracts. If those aren't performance based I don't know what is. If Garza and his agent wanted to negotiate the clause to mean only lost playing time due to being on the DL then they should have clearly written it out to say that.