Pirate postgame: "Brewers rebuilding at hyper speed"

[JohnBriggs12]

Yes they were impressed. Kent Tekulve in the post game suggested the Pirates will need to factor this rebuilt Brewer team into the equation not for 2017 and beyond but for 2016. He commented that Brewers rebuild came "just at the right time" when a lot of teams out there were buyers and was helped by their having guys other teams wanted. His partner mentioned the difference was Bucs had better starting pitching at the top, but watch out if the Brewers improve there. Indeed.

[EauClaireNWL]

Eh, this roster has still proven to be fools gold before. It would take a pretty significant overhaul in the off-season for this team to be immediately competitive next season, and a small market team like Milwaukee can't afford to over spend on FA's and trade what little talent they reloaded into the farm system just to be a borderline wild card contender again next year. If you can peg anything on this current little upswing, I think it's more a matter of guys getting healthy who are still around and actually playing up to their potential.

 

I think there's a handful of young guys currently up with the big league roster to be pretty excited about, but putting it all together for a 162 game stretch has been this team's biggest Achilles heel outside of 2011 and I think this team is still a good year or two away from potentially contending again. At least to where they won't be mortgaging the future to do it.

[bork]

Still a ton of questions in the infield. Outside of Lind, the infield is full of bench and platoon players. And much of the same in AAA. Really, are there any infielders above A ball, outside of Arcia who you would consider an above average big league starter?

[DuWayne Steurer]

I like that we started the rebuild and seem (somewhat) committed to it, but I can't see them competing next year. As others have said, we have too many holes in the infield. The rotation is really only 2 or 3 deep, and CF is still kind of a question mark.

 

Now that we have started this process, I don't want to see them go out and spend a bunch of top tier money on mid-tier FA's again to try to win 83 games. We'll end up right back where we were this season. Let the process play out as it's begun.

[monty57]

Eh, this roster has still proven to be fools gold before. It would take a pretty significant overhaul in the off-season for this team to be immediately competitive next season, and a small market team like Milwaukee can't afford to over spend on FA's and trade what little talent they reloaded into the farm system just to be a borderline wild card contender again next year. If you can peg anything on this current little upswing, I think it's more a matter of guys getting healthy who are still around and actually playing up to their potential.

 

I think there's a handful of young guys currently up with the big league roster to be pretty excited about, but putting it all together for a 162 game stretch has been this team's biggest Achilles heel outside of 2011 and I think this team is still a good year or two away from potentially contending again. At least to where they won't be mortgaging the future to do it.

 

Excellent post! "Fool's gold" is a perfect way to sum up the last few seasons. Whenever the team bombs, it gets excused away, but when the team (or an individual player) gets on a hot streak, that is the new expected norm.

 

We have had too much of our money tied up in a few players, forcing us to rely heavily on sub-par players. We are finally rid of a lot of wasted salary, and have added some promising young talent. The worst thing we could do now is to take this little hot streak to be anything other than that. If we once again allow ourselves to believe we're one or two pieces away from the promised land, we could seriously harm the good moves made recently.

 

I agree that the willingness to make a few trades with the eye on the future has made a shorter rebuild more realistic, but they can't stop there. They are much better off making a few more trades to add more young, cheap, team controlled players, and targeting a few years down the road than they are making "win now" moves to try to contend in 2016.

[MrTPlush]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

[CheezWizHed]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

 

That is probably what the Pirates' postgame is thinking, but I doubt the Brewers pull the trigger that quickly on the rebuild. I'd prefer we try to build a bit more internally first (trade Lind, let Arcia spend most of the year at AAA) than making big FA signs of Freese or Zimmerman

[TigerUppercut]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

 

That is probably what the Pirates' postgame is thinking, but I doubt the Brewers pull the trigger that quickly on the rebuild. I'd prefer we try to build a bit more internally first (trade Lind, let Arcia spend most of the year at AAA) than making big FA signs of Freese or Zimmerman

 

David Freese would be considered a "big" FA sign?

[Pugger]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

 

What do we do with Santana? Send him back to AAA in 2016?

[wildcat2237]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

 

That is probably what the Pirates' postgame is thinking, but I doubt the Brewers pull the trigger that quickly on the rebuild. I'd prefer we try to build a bit more internally first (trade Lind, let Arcia spend most of the year at AAA) than making big FA signs of Freese or Zimmerman

 

This would be disastrous. Lucroy needs to be traded for the Carlos Gomez package(or something very similar) in the off-season. Lind should be traded, hopefully for 2 top 100ish guys. And I wouldnt be opposed to trading Braun and eating some money if its nets 2-4 good players. Braun has actually had a good year and it would be nice to trade high on him before the thumb issue flares up again.

 

I like what the Brewers have done. But if you're going to rebuild the right way, I really only think they are about half way there. The minor league system is once again interesting and relevant, but I'm not sure I see an ace yet, I'm not sure I see a power hitting first baseman, I don't see anything resembling a 3rd base prospect(other than maybe Lara who is years away). The Brewers have some nice pieces but I think another 6 to 8 solid prospects should be in order.

[CheezWizHed]

David Freese would be considered a "big" FA sign?

 

Big=more money and years than deserved due to being the best 3B in a bad group

[folly412]

I'm good with being patient for another year or two. The Pirates used to be our punching bag when we were winning and they weren't, now they're just trying to rationalize how a bad Brewers team is owning them. Hit the accelerator when we have similar success against the Cardinals and Cubs.

[monty57]

Unfortunately, the success we're currently having could hamper our rebuild. We're now sitting with the 7th overall pick in the draft, and there are eight other sub-.500 teams just waiting for us to catch them. I wouldn't be surprised if we once again end up out of the top ten draft spots due to a meaningless late-season hot streak.

[reillymcshane]

A quick rebuild is probably a rebuild to mediocrity like the last few years.

 

Milwaukee has to develop a few young stars to build around, especially some top flight pitching. We just don't have that kind of talent right now.

 

I'm not saying we need to take 5 or 6 years, but we can't delude ourselves that a few nice looking players puts us close to playoff contention - especially playoff contention on a regular basis.

[markedman5]

@CespedesBBQ: Heard this mentioned on the Cubs broadcast: Pirates are 82-122 against the Brewers since Randall Simon clocked that Sausage in the face.

[3and2Fastball]

Yes they were impressed. Kent Tekulve in the post game suggested the Pirates will need to factor this rebuilt Brewer team into the equation not for 2017 and beyond but for 2016. He commented that Brewers rebuild came "just at the right time" when a lot of teams out there were buyers and was helped by their having guys other teams wanted. His partner mentioned the difference was Bucs had better starting pitching at the top, but watch out if the Brewers improve there. Indeed.

 

 

Translated as: "We just got whupped by the team with the 6th worst record in MLB. Better say good things about them to help save face. Our fans aren't happy"

 

Not buying it

[torts]

Pirates fans have grown to expect this, and i bet more watched the steelers 4th game than the series finale

[DHonks]

I have no problem with optimism. I just can't say I support handing Davis the job in LF. I've long been a Peralta fan, but if he has a great start to next year I'd consider seeing if we can deal him for multiple prospects. It's sort of the A's/Rays ways of getting 3-5 years out of a pitcher and then moving him. I really like Santana. I keep thinking of how he profiles similar to a better performing version of Nelson Cruz (for his age). Our bullpen is looking strong. SS will be fine. I'm not worried like so many about 3b. Realistically, the prototypical 3b just doesn't seem to exist these days. If we can find a Bill Mueller or Jeff Cirillo-type (good D, nice obp), then I'd be very happy.

[MNBrew]

I've been concerned about the IF for a few years now. Lind's solid & proven, but there's a lack of definitively starting-caliber talent outside of Arcia at the rest of the IF positions & at the top few levels of the system (including the majors).

 

MrTPlush, I'm with you on that roster overall except for Phillips. The guy hasn't even sniffed AAA yet, and he's not exactly killing it at Biloxi. I don't doubt the talent, just the MLB arrival time (other than anything short-term, anyway).

 

Davis is the one I think of re: "fool's gold" on offense. He's impressive when he's on. The last month has been pretty awesome. The other 4 months of the season (less the injury time) at minimum weren't very impressive and at worst were legit cause to consider demoting or replacing him. I see more promise in Santana, and I just wonder if Melvin or his successor (depending on the timing) might swap him for a nice return -- the "sell high" notion folks here tend to believe that Melvin just won't ever do.

[umphrey]

We still need to figure out a way to get a #1 pitcher without trading away Arcia or Phillips (or whoever our top prospects are in 1-3 years). Top 5 pick next year would really help.

[paul253]

What could we realistically expect in return for Davis and Peralta?

 

I really, really wish the Brewers give up on 2016 and build for 2017 because they'll likely have a ton of guys ready by then. Arcia Phillips Taylor Reed Lopez, Wagner, Hader. Coulter should be close. Clark could be relatively close. Medeiros and Williams should be in AA by then. I'm telling you if they don't fool themselves into thinking they are contenders next year and trade their tradable assets for more young talent we could FINALLY see a consistently good team starting in 2017.

[3and2Fastball]

MrTPlush, I'm with you on that roster overall except for Phillips. The guy hasn't even sniffed AAA yet, and he's not exactly killing it at Biloxi.

 

 

Don't get caught up too much on small sample stats. His overall AA stat line this year is a solid .294/.368/.444/.812 and looking at his entire 2015 season he's at .309/.374/.527/.901

 

I don't doubt the talent, just the MLB arrival time (other than anything short-term, anyway).

.

 

Considering that he's only 21 years old. It would make sense to keep him in AAA for all of 2016 (except maybe a Sept callup) and bring him to MLB at age 23 in 2017

[DHonks]

paul253, rebuilding for 2017 means getting those kids to the big leagues in 2016 for time to make adjustments.

[danzig6767]

What could we realistically expect in return for Davis and Peralta?

 

I really, really wish the Brewers give up on 2016 and build for 2017 because they'll likely have a ton of guys ready by then. Arcia Phillips Taylor Reed Lopez, Wagner, Hader. Coulter should be close. Clark could be relatively close. Medeiros and Williams should be in AA by then. I'm telling you if they don't fool themselves into thinking they are contenders next year and trade their tradable assets for more young talent we could FINALLY see a consistently good team starting in 2017.

We'll have a new GM come the end of the season, so it will be interesting to see both who Attanasio hires and if he let's that GM set the direction he chooses for next year and beyond.

 

Trading Davis makes sense so that Santana can start everyday in LF or RF. Maybe that new GM would feel it makes sense to shop Lucroy, but what happens then if Attanasio disagrees?

 

This dynamic between who Attaasio hires to be his new GM and just how much authority Attanasio gives that GM are the two most important things which will happen this offseason IMO.

[InProblematique]

They could make an interesting roster next year if they wanted to. You could go:

 

C- Lucroy

1B- Lind

2B- Gennett/Platoon Partner

3B- TBD(Freese possibly)

SS- Arcia

LF- Davis

CF- Phillips

RF- Braun

 

1. Zimmerman

2. Nelson

3. Jungmann

4. Peralta

5. Garza(maybe someone else)

 

Bullpen=Solid

 

 

So I guess you could make an interesting 2016 team if you really wanted to. Now is that team going to compete? Probably not unless Arcia and Phillips both hit the ground running and the rotation does well. I surely wouldn't do it and neither will the Brewers...but you could.

 

What do we do with Santana? Send him back to AAA in 2016?

In this quoted hypothetical outfield line-up (Braun, Davis, Phillips), I think the logical solution to include Santana would be to platoon him and Phillips early, then decide who goes. That wouldn't mean an exclusive battle between Phillips and Santana, though. If they're both performing well and Davis isn't, I'd move Santana over to left. Braun won't go anywhere regardless of his performance.

 

If all three perform well, one of them stays as a fourth outfielder, and we can start platooning Braun at first with Lind.

 

Regardless, I do believe it's possible (even likely) that both Phillips and Santana will be on the opening day roster.