Opinions on Carlos Gomez

[danzig6767]

The race thing is out of place and unnecessary in this thread, but why should it surprise anyone that no matter what the issue, race has to be included... Gets old...

Gomez grew up and learned how to play baseball in a country and culture where showing emotion while playing was common place. This is generally frowned upon in America, however. Nothing about this is controversial or racism. It is fact. That some players, coaches, media, fans, etc. get their panties in a bunch when a player show emotions such as excitement or frustration in ways that are non-confrontational or not derogatory to opponents or umpires is stupid.

Yea, a lot of people are taking the race/nationality aspect of this the wrong way.

 

White sports fans who get bothered by athletes who often are black/Latin that are flamboyant on the field/court of professional sports or whatever term that wants to be used doesn't have to then mean they are racist for feeling bothered, just that it seems more often the case that white fans are bothered by flamboyant athletes for whatever the reason.

 

I do think this will change in time given it's generally older/aging sports fans who are more bothered by flamboyant athletes than younger sports fans are. Baseball though i do wonder about more than other sports. It's 2015 and yet it's still accepted as common practice for a pitcher to drill a batter for say looking at his homer for 3 seconds instead of 2. Or drill the next batter who didn't do anything. Get bent out of shape if a batter in their eyes runs to slow or fast around the bases after a home run. The Cardinals nonsense over the Brewers untucking the jerseys when Mike Cameron was a Brewer. The Giants ridiculous holding a grudge for years over that fun Brewers bowling pins celebrations after a Fielder walk off homer.

 

There should be a very big difference between stuff like when Nyger Morgan at times would get over the top silly in trying way to hard to consistently draw attention to himself and some emotional players showing it immediately after a good or bad play by them, but to often some baseball players and managers can't seem to distinguish between the two, so we still have dumb incidents like that one between the Astros and Yankees where the Yankee bench got mad over what should have been nothing.

[CheezWizHed]

It could be worse...

[joepepsi]

Baseball wasn't always a Gentlemen's game. In the late 19th century players were rowdy, unruly, and ready for a fight at a moment's notice. Fans loved it, owners encouraged it. I wonder when it changed. After WWI? The Black Sox scandal? Jackie Robinson?

 

I get everyone is tired of the "race card", but baseball fans skew older and whiter than most other sports fans. (Except possibly Golf.) The league, ownership, and mangement, and coaching skews old, white guys. Managers in particular have tended to be old school. That's changing and I suspect with it will come less talk about "playing the game the right way" as well as fewer instances of retribution for a player showing up another team.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Personally, I wish we had more of this

 

 

It may not be 'racial', but it definitely is cultural.

[LouisEly]

It's not even so much cultural as it is sport-dependent. Basketball and football show a lot of emotion, and it is accepted/embraced to a certain point, much more so than baseball.

 

For the most part, people don't have a problem with throwing up the "3-goggles" after making a 3-point shot or a sack dance after sacking the QB. But heaven forbid you slam your bat after popping up or watch a home run ball for 2-3 seconds at the plate. Or untuck your shirt after winning a game.

[CheezWizHed]

I get everyone is tired of the "race card", but baseball fans skew older and whiter than most other sports fans. (Except possibly Golf.) The league, ownership, and mangement, and coaching skews old, white guys. Managers in particular have tended to be old school. That's changing and I suspect with it will come less talk about "playing the game the right way" as well as fewer instances of retribution for a player showing up another team.

 

That still doesn't make race a causal relationship to the problem. This is not because Gomez is hispanic nor because Girardi is caucasian.

 

As others have said, cultural (whether geographic or age) differences are probably true. Nothing about this is due to anyone's skin color. The untuckem' thing wasn't either. We had mixed races on the Brewers doing it and liking it. And the Cardinals had mixed races hating it and calling out the Brewers for it.

 

Every time race continues to come up simply because people have different skin color fuels the fire of racism in this country. There are some legitimate occurrences (the church shooting) and not legitimate occurrences. If you want to bridge those gaps and reach across those barriers, it helps no one to bring it up illegitimately.

[CheezWizHed]

Personally, I wish we had more of this

 

 

It may not be 'racial', but it definitely is cultural.

 

 

I love this. I've never understood why you can't be happy when you hit a homerun. So the pitcher gets his undies in a bunch... boo-hoo. Stop throwing gopher balls.

[sveumrules]

I hate to bring facts to a thread with opinion in the title, but Carlos Gomez is an above average base runner.

 

Sure he made a ton of outs on boneheaded plays, but he also took far more extra bases than an average runner on account of his speed. Add up all the extra bases, and subtract all the stupid outs and he still comes out far ahead because the positives outnumber the negatives.

 

It's like two fielders at the same position, one with 10 errors the other with 20. For years it was assumed the guy with less errors was the better fielder. I mean, how could he not be he has half as many errors?!?! Well, it turns out the guy with 20 errors also turned 40 balls into outs that the guy with 10 errors never even touched.

 

Ok, I'll close the with an opinion, keeping with the spirit of the thread. As much as I enjoyed watching Carlos play with enthusiasm & exuberance, I enjoyed watching and reading about all the feathers it ruffled even more. Oh wait, that's a fact too.

[monty57]

It's not even so much cultural as it is sport-dependent. Basketball and football show a lot of emotion, and it is accepted/embraced to a certain point, much more so than baseball.

 

Football completely banned celebrating in the end zone. Well, not completely, the Packers are still able to do the Lambeau Leap, but everything else is banned.

 

It's about money. Those "old white guys" everyone hates happen to be the ones who spend the money that supports this multi-billion dollar industry. Basketball lost a lot of these "old white guys" when they pretty much turned the game into street ball after the Jordan years, and they lost a lot of money when they left. Once gone, they're hard to bring back.

 

But, I disagree that it's only "old white guys" (which by the way is a racist statement in and of itself), but rather "working citizens of the United States." Black, brown, white, yellow, whatever, working people can't get away with these antics, so a certain "boring" protocol is adopted that just says you don't do some things in the workplace. Glorified as it may be, a professional baseball stadium is a workplace, and many working Americans don't think certain types of behavior belong there.

 

I do agree that things evolve over time, and it is possible that fans will accept more antics from players. However, I disagree that the game has to adapt to certain players because of their culture. Workers adapt to the workplace, not the other way around. If someone from the Dominican Republic (as stated in a previous example) doesn't like the "boring" aspects of baseball in America, they are always free to go back and play in their home town... they just won't have all those "stupid old white people" spending all that money allowing for players to make millions of dollars.

[AKCheesehead]

But heaven forbid you slam your bat after popping up or watch a home run ball for 2-3 seconds at the plate. Or untuck your shirt after winning a game.

 

Another thing is that I don't hear the complaints when it comes from a pitcher. If he runs around pumping a fist or stares down a batter after a K, he gets a free pass for just being "an emotional pitcher." And I'm ok with it, too. But if a batter takes a look for 1 second on a jack before getting out of the box, that's so unsportsmanlike apparently. Double standard.

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

But, I disagree that it's only "old white guys" (which by the way is a racist statement in and of itself), but rather "working citizens of the United States." Black, brown, white, yellow, whatever, working people can't get away with these antics, so a certain "boring" protocol is adopted that just says you don't do some things in the workplace. Glorified as it may be, a professional baseball stadium is a workplace, and many working Americans don't think certain types of behavior belong there.

 

 

Except comparing pro sports to an office job is like comparing apples to coconuts. Pro sports is entertainment. I don't have walk up music when I go to my desk. There are not video boards around my office to keep onlookers distracted between calls. We don't have mascots race around the office 2/3rds of the way through the day.

 

We also don't do this at the end of a good day.

 

[logan82]

I don't have walk up music when I go to my desk.

Maybe you should.

[jerichoholicninja]

But heaven forbid you slam your bat after popping up or watch a home run ball for 2-3 seconds at the plate. Or untuck your shirt after winning a game.

 

Another thing is that I don't hear the complaints when it comes from a pitcher. If he runs around pumping a fist or stares down a batter after a K, he gets a free pass for just being "an emotional pitcher." And I'm ok with it, too. But if a batter takes a look for 1 second on a jack before getting out of the box, that's so unsportsmanlike apparently. Double standard.

 

If you're a rookie pitcher and you do it, your opponent might take offense to it.

[CheezWizHed]

I hate to bring facts to a thread with opinion in the title, but Carlos Gomez is an above average base runner.

 

Sure he made a ton of outs on boneheaded plays, but he also took far more extra bases than an average runner on account of his speed. Add up all the extra bases, and subtract all the stupid outs and he still comes out far ahead because the positives outnumber the negatives.

 

Is that a fact? A serious question. I don't know if there is a way to measure it or not exactly (the part about running into boneheaded outs vs. taking an extra base).

[CheezWizHed]

We also don't do this at the end of a good day.

 

 

Think I could improve morale in my office if I implement this for every contract won?

[jerichoholicninja]

I hate to bring facts to a thread with opinion in the title, but Carlos Gomez is an above average base runner.

 

Sure he made a ton of outs on boneheaded plays, but he also took far more extra bases than an average runner on account of his speed. Add up all the extra bases, and subtract all the stupid outs and he still comes out far ahead because the positives outnumber the negatives.

 

Is that a fact? A serious question. I don't know if there is a way to measure it or not exactly (the part about running into boneheaded outs vs. taking an extra base).

 

I know there are some baserunning metrics and I'm not sure how Gomez rates by them. I will say though, each extra base doesn't just equally cancel out each time getting tagged out on the bases. An extra base is nice but an unforced out 90% of the time not a good thing.

[sveumrules]

From 2010-15 with the Brewers Gomez was worth 20.1 runs of positive value on the bases, per fangraphs. That is the 33rd best mark over said time frame just above Desmond Jennings, Andrew McCutchen & Jason Kipnis and just below Justin Upton, Jayson Werth & Cameron Maybin.

 

For reference the players who finished closest to 0.0 over the same time frame include Matt Kemp, Chris Davis, Giancarlo Stanton, Yasiel Puig & Evan Longoria. And the very worst baserunners over said time frame were Billy Butler (-59.2), David Ortiz (-38.6), Prince Fielder (-35.2), Paul Konerko (-34.2) & Aramis Ramirez (-33.8).

 

Of couse baserunning metrics don't come with the same certainty as say OBP, but they are the best we have and far more reliable than the selective memories of individuals who maybe watch half of one team's games in any given season.

 

If you want to say Carlos underachieved on the bases or could have been better on the bases, I agree 100%. To say he was bad or below mediocre is categorically false based on the best information that is publicly available.

[Nottso]

I would love to see 9 guys just like Carlos playing against 9 more guys just like him. I don't think there would be any extracurricular activities at all because I don't think Carlos means to disrespect anyone. I think he just plays with the passion and the culture with which he was raised. I like to see people having fun at what they do, be it playing baseball, football, or ballroom dancing.

 

And I'm still in mourning.

[brewcrewdue80]

The part about the baserunning metrics. How is that honestly put together? Because making the 1st out at 3b or final out should wipe out like 10SBs or bases taken on balls hit per occasion. Beyond Boneheaded and I'm sure the metrics don't penalize as much. Those outs killed me for wanting to keep Gomez on the team, and ate away with wanting him traded. I just don't get how any man as fast as Gomez attempts a SB at 3b with 2outs. You're running on contact and if it's a hit, you're scoring standing up. But no, he made the 3rd out on too many occasions. That's the only black mark I have with Gomez is his mind refuses to get smart under situations. 1out and a pitcher is wild? Or ignoring you at 2b and you make a run for 3b? Fine you can score on a Sac Fly if you pull it off. Maybe even score when he throws another wild pitch in the dirt....smart. But, attempting to swipe 3b with 2outs or 0outs dumb.

 

What do the metrics apply for that though? Is a CS at 3b equal for 1st out, 2nd out, 3rd out? Or do they subtract more for 3rd out and 1st out? What about if it happens with 2outs and the batter was the pitcher? Or Ryan Braun? With a pitcher up, it shouldn't affect as much. With Braun up, who's better than .250 he's just cost the team 25+% of scoring a run.

 

Still, he did nothing wrong in that Yankee game except maybe yell shut up 1 time to many.

[1992casey]

sveumrules can confirm if this article covers the stat he's using:

 

Ultimate Base Running Primer

 

Base-out states are addressed.

[QuevedosTongue]

I've really enjoyed reading the responses to this topic (pats self on back for starting thread, then decides to flip tablet and stare down the forum to demonstrate level of awesomeness).

 

I'm of the opinion that other players and coaches take offense way too easy. It sums like this is a recent phenomenon to me. When I was a kid AL Hrabosky walked around like he was crazy between pitches, yet I don't remember him being called out for his performances. Did LaRussa start all this? I don't know. I think the idea that players shouldn't be allowed to show emotion and/or have fun while playing seems ridiculous.

[DuWayne Steurer]

sveumrules can confirm if this article covers the stat he's using:

 

Ultimate Base Running Primer

 

Base-out states are addressed.

 

 

Here's what I can glean from that data.

 

Carlos Gomez is definitely an aggressive base runner. We already know he is fast, so he is a fast base runner.

 

The contention is ..... Carlos Gomez a good base runner. The argument is , his UBR says he is a positive, so he MUST be a *good* baserunner.

 

My contention being aggressive and fast doesn't necessarily make him good at running the bases. At judging situations and knowing "it's 2 outs, I shouldn't be stealing third, or making the last out at third, or going to third on a ball hit to SS" or whatever.

 

Those qualifiers on Fangraphs don't make any distinction between getting thrown out at third by 30 feet on a grounder to ss, or getting beat on a bang-bang play. That just slides into the data set as a quantified number, and away we go to the next Gomez base running blunder.

 

So here's my takeaway from it all? Is Gomez fast, aggressive, and does he add positive value with those attributes? Absolutely Yes. But is he a "good" baserunner? No. When he loses his speed (which I think he is already losing a 1/4 to a half a step), he's going to find that his "fast and aggressive" approach will not make up for the mental mistakes he often makes on the bases.

[logan82]

I was never really a big fan of Carlos. I didn't like his antics but I don't think they went to far and should have warranted the bad response they usually get. They were not like Morgan where he is purposely drawing attention to himself.

[Pugger]

Nothing wrong with what Crew said, perfectly reasonable but I would just rather let people enjoy themselves, celebrate when they succeed at something they've worked very hard at than to give them grief for it. And on the flip side when you mess up, like Gomez did here you should be competitive enough to be pissed at yourself. No one gives guys like Brady or Manning when they're fuming after an INT.

 

But for Braun I don't know what he did other than peak at a HR now and then, which nearly every single player does if you watch closely. Or even if you just watch SC highlights, this actually struck me just the other night when the Mets hit 8 HRs, they stood at the plate for every one. The only times Braun did anything beyond would be for walkoffs, especially the two playoff clinching bombs he had where he turned to our bench to celebrate. Beyond that I don't know what he did. Come to think of it, I remember the Cardinals taking issue with him putting his head down and not watching as they thought that was too cocky, after they drilled him and made an issue he'd make a point to immediately put his head after hitting a no doubter and start jogging without looking up. Of course he was doing it to make a point, but they took issue with that too. Can't win with those guys.

 

Beast Mode thing was mostly a Fielder thing initially ripped on by the old school, but now it's kind of stuck around as a phrase all over sports.

 

Braun never struck me as that type either.

[Pugger]

Linkto an article from ESPN:

 

"I don't care what Joe Girardi says. ... If [the Yankees] feel frustrated, that's not my problem. This is part of the game, part of the nature of competition, and those who don't know how to compete, can just go home and cry."

Love it.

 

Yankees can take their payroll and stick it where the sun don't shine. It's your fault you're down 9-0.

 

This is why Gomez has gotten better - he refuses to allow himself to be mediocre under any circumstances.

 

Bravo!