Catcher prospects to target in a trade

[Jose Cardenal1]

Much has been made of the dearth of 1b and 3b prospects in the organization. And rightly so. What isn't talked about much is the dearth of C prospects too. I love seeing the production Carlos Leal is having in A ball but outside of him there is nothing, and to put all your eggs in the Leal basket is not wise at this point.

 

It sure feels like the organization has accepted that a tear down/rebuild needs to occur and thus we will see more trades of assets for prospects with the idea of competing in 2018 at the earliest (2016 will be a really awful year, 2017 will at least be interesting as many prospects will be starting by then). Lucroy will be a free agent after 2017 and more than likely be traded well before then (his comments yesterday felt like a not so subtle hint to the Brewers that he didn't want to be here to witness the dumpster fire the next two years. I am sure Braun feels the same way but he got his contract and is smart enough to know to shut up).

 

So with that said I think the Brewers need to identify the best Catching prospects in the minors now and make them a target to aquire in a trade.

 

Who is that? I've said on another thread that I like C.Sisco in the Oriole organization. There are a few others: G.Sanchez (NYY), M.Pentacost (Tor), J.O'Connor (Rays), J.Alfarao (Phi), A.Susac (SF). I am sure I am missing a couple but the point is there isn't many and even less when you consider the Phillies are rebuilding also and the Rays don't trade away prospects.

 

Do you agree with me that acquiring a C is now a top priority and if so who do you target?

[Outlander]

I might be in the minority but I am okay with Weisenberger, Houle and Leal. Sure, it would be great to get a guy like Sisco but probably not worth the price to try to acquire a top line catching prospect. Would prefer high ceiling pitching if they deal Lucroy.

[Roderick]

It's nice to have a good catcher, but it seems to me that the position uses up a player, whereas you get a good 1B/3B, it is a good chance he is going to play more and be healthier.

 

So I guess I would rather have a Maldanado at catcher and have an outstanding 1B, rather than have a 2014 Lucroy at catcher and a Reynolds/Overbay at 1B. You are more apt to lose time at the catcher position.

 

So if I had to prioritize a trade I would look for a premium corner infielder before a premium catcher. But would rather have a premium catcher before a "good" corner infielder prospect.

[JohnBriggs12]

You hold on to Lucroy for now. There should be ample assets at their disposal and some cash to spend to acquire his replacement after next season or into 2017. Having a premier catcher is kind of a luxury and not something you can usually trade for. Nonetheless, you can usually find a serviceable starting caliber catcher without too much difficulty. You might have to pick up some excess salary though like the Cubs did for Montero. They thought they were buying low too but Godley looking like a steal. Continue trying to develop and or draft there too. You might just hit on one.

[splitterpfj]

I can only assume trading Lucroy this winter would be maximizing his value. That second season of control, on that contract, absolutely should up the return.

 

I have no interest in extending Lucroy. That's not about anything he's done, it's about extending a catcher up into his 30s, as the team is rebuilding - I wouldn't mess with it, I'd use him to get more young talent.

 

My guess is that teams who have a good catching prospect who's getting close won't be the ones to make the best offers for Lucroy. If the Brewers are dealing for a young catcher, I would use Lucroy to fill other holes, and trade a different player for a young catcher.

 

I do think the Yankees would deal Sanchez, if the Brewers have a player who fills a need over there.

 

I would not expect a deal for Max Pentecost. Since he was drafted he's had two surgeries on his throwing shoulder, and he has not played a game this season.

[jerichoholicninja]

It's nice to have a good catcher, but it seems to me that the position uses up a player, whereas you get a good 1B/3B, it is a good chance he is going to play more and be healthier.

 

So I guess I would rather have a Maldanado at catcher and have an outstanding 1B, rather than have a 2014 Lucroy at catcher and a Reynolds/Overbay at 1B. You are more apt to lose time at the catcher position.

 

So if I had to prioritize a trade I would look for a premium corner infielder before a premium catcher. But would rather have a premium catcher before a "good" corner infielder prospect.

 

100% this. It's really not worth it to try and acquire a really good catcher except by the draft. Their productive years are short and quick and they only play 130ish games anyway. The difference between a great but non-elite level hitting catcher and an average one can't really be that much. Get some guys who can block and throw out runners and take whatever offense they can give you for 3 years and then move on.

[wildcat2237]

You hold on to Lucroy for now. There should be ample assets at their disposal and some cash to spend to acquire his replacement after next season or into 2017. Having a premier catcher is kind of a luxury and not something you can usually trade for. Nonetheless, you can usually find a serviceable starting caliber catcher without too much difficulty. You might have to pick up some excess salary though like the Cubs did for Montero. They thought they were buying low too but Godley looking like a steal. Continue trying to develop and or draft there too. You might just hit on one.

 

+1 on this.

 

Ramirez is off the books, Broxton is off the books, Parra is off the books, Gomez is off the books, and after this year Lohse comes off the books.

 

Rodriguez, Garza, Braun, and Lucroy are really the only three big contracts left, and I wouldn't be shocked if Krod and Lucroy are traded this winter. In fact, my mind wouldn't even be blown if they eat some cash and trade Braun for a couple prospects.

 

2016 is going to be a nightmare, but if/when they want to compete in 2017 they should have enough money to fill a couple positions with FA's.

 

I'm never a fan of giving big contracts to FA's but it might be necessary to fill 2 or 3 position.

[monty57]

It's nice to have a good catcher, but it seems to me that the position uses up a player, whereas you get a good 1B/3B, it is a good chance he is going to play more and be healthier.

 

So I guess I would rather have a Maldanado at catcher and have an outstanding 1B, rather than have a 2014 Lucroy at catcher and a Reynolds/Overbay at 1B. You are more apt to lose time at the catcher position.

 

So if I had to prioritize a trade I would look for a premium corner infielder before a premium catcher. But would rather have a premium catcher before a "good" corner infielder prospect.

 

100% this. It's really not worth it to try and acquire a really good catcher except by the draft. Their productive years are short and quick and they only play 130ish games anyway. The difference between a great but non-elite level hitting catcher and an average one can't really be that much. Get some guys who can block and throw out runners and take whatever offense they can give you for 3 years and then move on.

 

Agree. While everyone looks at offense, much of the catcher's value comes from defense, game calling, and working with the pitching staff. A good defensive, "heady" catcher shouldn't be that expensive, and we seemingly have one of those already in Maldonado. Trade Lucroy for a package built around a stud pitching or corner IF prospect, play Maldonado in 2016 and see how our catching prospects develop. If they don't look like they'll be the answer, you can usually find a veteran defensive catcher on the market relatively cheaply.

[Bnowell4evr]

Trading Lucroy is going to be such a franchise changing trade that I'm not so sure I would target a catcher as the headliner. After checking out MLB's top catching prospects I've concluded that only 3 of them could possibly be moved for Lucroy and unfortunately the Rays who never make these type of moves are one of those teams. That leaves the Cubs with Contreras and the A's with Nottingham as the teams that might match up for a trade. There's also Boston who could part with Swihart but his MLB clock has already begun.

 

Rays

LHP Blake Snell / RHP Brent Honeywell

C Justin O'Connor / C Chris Betts

1B Casey Gillaspie / 3B Richie Shaffer

Low level A arm to dream on or a AA pitcher with good stuff ala Hellweg, Pena, Houser

 

A's

1B Matt Olson / 3B Matt Chapman

C Jacob Nottingham

LHP Sean Manaea

Low level A arm like Dakota Chalmers / Casey Meisner or some AA guy with good stuff

 

The Cubs have the extra catcher as well as the 1st basemen to deal in Dan Vogelbach but they don't have the pitching to get the job done unless you believe Carl Edwards has what it takes to stick in the rotation. He has the stuff to be a front line starter but that walk rate is atrocious.

 

Because of how limited our trading partners are, I think targeting for top end pitching is the way to go when we move Lucroy. Maybe trading Lind will bring back a nice low level catcher to dream on? It seems like going with a band aid these next couple years is the way to go at that position.

[igor67]

I definitely think you are much more likely to get the best value for Lucroy in the winter compared to any deadline. It's one thing to acquire a back-up catcher midseason, but given how closely they work with the pitchers a lot of teams are going to be a little less hesitant to rock the boat mid-year.

[brewcrewdue80]

Catcher prospects to acquire are a lot like the 1b situation of prospects. It's a poor market. Shortstops though? Arcia is #14 on MLB.com...that's 6th overall. Take away Schwarber of the Cubs and The best catcher ranking is #69 Jorge Alfaro. And that's it for a top 100. There are 13 SS ranked in the top 45 ahead of Alfaro. Why bother going after a non top 100 prospect Catcher? There's better talent elsewhere to acquire for Lucroy. We need Difference Makers in players. Guys like Brett Phillips and Arcia who read like future All-Stars. Not acquiring a Catcher who's maybe going to have a .700OPS during a career year. I want the best player possible potentially in trading Lucroy. Someone with All Star potential. I don't want to settle for a few B grade types. Get the B+ to A- type prospect. Impact. If we take back a Catcher in return for Lucroy it's going to look like B,B,C grade return vs an A-/B+,B-/C+, B-/C+ kind of return.

 

Build your Catchers through the draft with later round picks and sign scrap-heap catchers who occasionally provide you with a positive season, while costing 4-5mil total against your payroll. Wait til you've found another Lucroy type via the draft. Catchers aren't the thing in the Majors right now offensively, and I just stated the "Future Prospects" a Kyle Schwarber(who's questioned to remain as a C) and Alfaro are the only top 100s. It's not like 10-15 teams in baseball are nearing graduating Catchers themselves to become AS types. And look at the ones who have in Plawecki/Swihart/Realmuto. It's not a Catcher's era like we are about to see at SS.

[SRB]

It is very difficult to develop or sign a star catcher, but paradoxically fairly easy to find competent catchers floating around free agency. It would be nice to have an option in our system, but I would be opposed to making a catching prospect a substantial part of a significant deal like a Lucroy trade. Maybe if you can get a flier like Sisco as a throw-in, but otherwise my preferred strategy is to build a winning team and then find a catcher off the scrap-heap who can serviceably hit 8th and give you good defense.

 

I would do this trade though:

 

To ATL:

C Jonathan Lucroy

 

To MIL:

C Christian Bethancourt

SS Ozhaino Albies

LHP Max Fried

LHP Kolby Allard

[LouisEly]

Agreed with dealing Lucroy in the off-season, if that's the direction they choose to go with him. In the off-season, if a team is really interested in acquiring Lucroy they will move pieces to acquire the pieces they need to acquire him. Much easier to do that in the off-season than at the deadline. Also, it's easier to do a 3-team deal in the off-season. While a direct deal with SF for Susac is very unlikely (or with NYY), bringing in a 3rd team that Lucroy is sent to, with the 3rd team sending pieces to MIL and SF/NYY, and SF/NYY sending a catcher to MIL, is much more likely.

 

And when in doubt, trade Lucroy for young pitching, then trade pitching for the pieces you need. I would think that some combination of Davies, Cravy, Thornburg, Wagner, Lopez, Johnson, Houser, Wang, Ortega, or Sneed should be able to bring back a catching prospect.

[JohnBriggs12]

A guy I'd target is Andrew Knapp from the Phillies organization. Might need to deal prospect for prospect to get him but what's not to like about Knapp? A .785 career OPS in 3 minor league seasons and .878 this year between high A and AA. Switch hitter. Decent 27% CS.

[clancyphile]

How about Jose Trevino from Texas?

 

Failing that, I have no problem extending Lucroy and having him and Braun. If the Brewers can trade K-Rod and Garza, then those two won't blow the payroll.

[bill hAll Star]

How about Jose Trevino from Texas?

 

Failing that, I have no problem extending Lucroy and having him and Braun. If the Brewers can trade K-Rod and Garza, then those two won't blow the payroll.

 

They'll deteriorate and be low-WAR players while not reaping the ability to get prospects in return.

 

Lucroy, assuming we didn't get bad luck and he's completely come unraveled as a player, is the key to this rebuild IMO. Trade him and get a good return this offseason or next trade deadline. The alternative is don't trade him and enjoy the low-.700s converted-1B or catcher that struggles to stay out there every day. He can be our Joe Mauer (at 2/3 of the annual cost).

 

Catchers don't do very well beyond 32. Pierzynski is having a renaissance decent year (was pretty bad most years after 30), but Mauer (not catching anymore) and Molina are done as good hitters. McCann and Martin are both beginning to decline at age 32 - their only prop this year (McCann is having a good year) is their home ballparks. McCann is mashing the short porch and Martin his hitting well at home.

 

Long story short, trade Lucroy ASAP assuming his value rises at all.

[MNBrew]

Lucroy's D has been good this year (outside of a higher-than usual error count) including a quite-improved CS%. The thing that brings his value down this year is his terrible offense.

 

Given those two things, there's absolutely no reason to move him to 1B.

 

I'd also posit that it's quite beneficial to have a solid catcher who knows what he's doing to work with a (relatively) younger pitching staff.

 

I hate the Cardinals, but it's no hindrance to them to keep playing Yadier Molina everyday rather than consider trading him or playing their #2 catcher more even though his offense isn't at all what it used to be (3 HRs, .676 OPS).

 

I'm not sure who would be an attractive young C prospect to target in a potential trade. We certainly don't have any obvious "catcher of the future" coming up through our system right now. In the end, I'd simply prefer to keep Lucroy here. At minimum, trading Lucroy anytime before next year would be a serious case of selling low, which would be completely unacceptable.

[wildcat2237]

I honestly would not be worried about the catcher position.

 

The Brewers are not likely to compete again until 2017 at the earliest. If we do not have a young MLB ready catcher at that time I would not be completely opposed to spending some cash on someone passable. Especially if we have stud hitters in the OF and in the middle infield.

 

What I would be worried about is pitching. This team needs to develop some top of the rotation talent. Right now, Hader and Medeiros are the only two guys in the organization with that type of talent.

 

If the Brewers fail to develop some top tier pitching we will be headed right back down the Marcum for Lowrie and back up the truck full of prospects for Greinke path.

[MNBrew]

In the post-Surhoff & -Nilsson era of Brewers catchers, we've not had anybody truly good on the upward or peak part of their career until Lucroy. In other words, we spent plenty of cash on "passable" and I think the results speak for themselves! The debacle of the recent couple years at 1B shows that it's not always easy to just find a guy you can plug in and get respectable/solid play from just because the need to fill the position is obvious to everyone who follows the team (yes, I'm very glad to have Adam Lind).

 

What did aiming or settling for "passable" get us? After the succession of career-backup or job-share guys Eddie Perez, Keith Osik, Paul Bako, we also got Johnny Estrada, Chad Moeller, Damian Miller, and Jason Kendall all on the especially crappy last stretches of their careers. We were left to drool over the stellar rookie- and A-ball exploits of Angel Salome, Lou Palmisano, etc., who of course never came close to sniffing the bigs in any meaningful way. Right now we have no solid catching prospects beyond "passable" unless Adam Weisenburger & minor-league FA Nevin Ashley scream "promising big leaguer" to anyone. . . . unless someone can convince Clint Coulter his best play is to move back behind the plate.

 

For the first time in 15+ years, we have a solid, core-player, worthy MLB catcher on our roster who's made the All-Star game and who's an upper-tier-and-improving defensive player having his first "off" year (rather significantly, too, unfortunately) at the plate. Yes, the team's re-tooling. But the team's not going all Astros/Cubs in terms of a total hard-core tear-down. All things have to be done in context and Lucroy, while a likely-highly-coveted asset (but whom trading at this point would equate to selling seriously low), also serves a valuable role as a core player on a now-rebuilding team -- and I'm suggesting that value fills a greater need for the Brewers now and still quite possibly a few years from now than a few more prospects who may or may not pan out (see: 3/4 of the guys traded for Sabathia & 2/3 of the guys traded for Linebrink, etc.). Every other position player on the field is essentially independent. The catcher, however, has his own defensive game PLUS a significant impact on every pitch of the game by virtue of how he works with the pitcher. So a guy with Lucroy's caliber and experience makes a greater impact than a Maldonado (now obviously not more than a career backup) or most anyone just coming up from the minors.

 

Now, if in another deal we can land a new & rather indisputable "catcher of the future," then I may well look at this differently. Until then, I don't think trading Lucroy's a terribly wise move.

[bill hAll Star]

I don't really care who the catcher is, I'm just hoping not to have Lucroy on the roster at $15+ million/year in 2018 is what I'm saying. Somebody's probably going to pay that, and I hope it's not the Brewers.