Gomez and Fiers to Houston for four prospects

[gregmag]

Yeah, all those home runs and stolen bases were just painful to watch. Especially because sometimes he didn't do those things -- what kind of player is that? It sure is funny how he fooled the baseball writers into two straight top-15 MVP finishes.

[dlk9s]

BRETT FAVRE SUCKED HE THREW TOO MANY INTERCEPTIONS

[clancyphile]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

 

And giving up the competitive balance pick doesn't sit very well with me, either. I'd rather be acquiring such picks, not giving them up.

[Brew City Baseball Fan]

An last night we gave him up for Geena Davis and a dude that just had tommy John. I respect your love for Gomez, I'm just saying that it's stupid.

[1992casey]

I respect your love for Gomez, I'm just saying that it's stupid.

 

Totally unnecessary condescension.

[DHonks]

I am sad about Fiers leaving; I guess the great start by Junngmann made Doug think he could spare one of the younger starters

 

Fondy, I like Fiers a lot, but this trade reminds me of the A's dealing Hudson, Mulder, and Blanton while their value was high. Fact is he's an old, solid, cheap guy

[brwrsfan]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

 

And giving up the competitive balance pick doesn't sit very well with me, either. I'd rather be acquiring such picks, not giving them up.

 

I'm pretty sure we didn't give up a draft pick. We gave up some money in the international signing pool. Not the same thing.

 

Per espn: The Astros also acquire the 76th international signing slot for the 2015-16 signing period.

[clancyphile]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

 

And giving up the competitive balance pick doesn't sit very well with me, either. I'd rather be acquiring such picks, not giving them up.

 

I'm pretty sure we didn't give up a draft pick. We gave up some money in the international signing pool. Not the same thing.

 

Per espn: The Astros also acquire the 76th international signing slot for the 2015-16 signing period.

 

So how does that work?

 

Not that I like giving up a slot of anything to re-stock a farm system.

[Brew City Baseball Fan]

I respect your love for Gomez, I'm just saying that it's stupid.

 

Totally unnecessary condescension.

I appreciate the want to keep the board civil. I appreciate the ability to have a favorite player. One of my all time favorite Milwaukee Bucks is Ervin "no magic" Johnson. But I'm not putting him in the same category as Cummings, Alcindor, Bridgeman etc. Sometimes condescending leads to clarity. People want to put Go Go in the same category as the greats in MILW. It's just not right in the context used. I love Quevado, winkelesass, spivey, overbay, Branyon and Deer. But just like those guys, Gomez is a tool player. As in he is a "tool" in baseball circles of people that know what real 5 tool players are. Gomez is an athlete that plays baseball. Know any hall of famers that swing out of there helmet regularly? He is a cog and we got what we deserved in a trade. If Gomez is your favorite player since Molitor because he is the best since then, I'm standing by stupid

[Brew City Baseball Fan]

Yeah, all those home runs and stolen bases were just painful to watch. Especially because sometimes he didn't do those things -- what kind of player is that? It sure is funny how he fooled the baseball writers into two straight top-15 MVP finishes.

And we won what with that all world player?

[trwi7]

So how does that work?

 

Not that I like giving up a slot of anything to re-stock a farm system.

 

It's basically money. The Astros gain $287,500 to spend on international free agents by acquiring that slot while the Brewers lose the same amount for trading it.

[narwhalattack]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

 

And giving up the competitive balance pick doesn't sit very well with me, either. I'd rather be acquiring such picks, not giving them up.

 

I don't think they gave up the Competitve Balance pick. I think they just gave the international bonus slot.

[BrewCrew8682]

Yeah, all those home runs and stolen bases were just painful to watch. Especially because sometimes he didn't do those things -- what kind of player is that? It sure is funny how he fooled the baseball writers into two straight top-15 MVP finishes.

And we won what with that all world player?

 

Technically, just about as much as we did with Molitor. I fee like you're going out of your way to criticize those trying to express their fondness for the way he played. I certainly hope we are all able to enjoy current and future players until the next HOF one spends the majority of his career here. Otherwise, I might not get another chance, and I'm 27.

[1992casey]

I respect your love for Gomez, I'm just saying that it's stupid.

 

Totally unnecessary condescension.

…Sometimes condescending leads to clarity. … I'm standing by stupid

Condescending conflicts with Fan Forum Etiquette. You need to find another way to seek out clarity.

[The stache]

Yeah, all those home runs and stolen bases were just painful to watch. Especially because sometimes he didn't do those things -- what kind of player is that? It sure is funny how he fooled the baseball writers into two straight top-15 MVP finishes.

And we won what with that all world player?

 

Ernie Banks never even saw the post season. Nor did Ron Santo or Billy Williams all those years in Chicago. Ted Williams, arguably the greatest hitter to ever play the game, the last man to hit .400, never won a World Series, and only made it to the Fall Classic once. So, by your logic, because they never "won", they weren't great players....? Funny that all four are in the Hall of Fame. The best player in the game today is Mike Trout. He has been for a few years now. How many rings does he have? He's going to win the AL MVP again this season. Think he's going to even make it to the World Series this year? Doubtful. So "winning" is not, and should not be a measure of "greatness". The best hitter only comes up once every nine times in any game. If the rest of the team around them is not good, the greatest player will ultimately fail.

 

How many World Series wins does Miguel Cabrera have? He was on the 2003 Marlins team that won it all...as a rookie, when he played 87 games. He hasn't won it all since, despite being a career .321 hitter with 405 home runs and a .965 career OPS.

How many World Series wins did Robin Yount have?

How many World Series wins did Willie Mays, arguably the most complete player the game has ever seen, have? The Giants won it all in 1954, when he was 23. Mays played 20 more years, hit nearly 600 more home runs, drove in 1,700 + runs, stole over 300 bases, won 12 Gold Gloves. How did such a spectacularly talented player manage to whiff twenty straight times trying to win it all? He won another MVP, finished top five in the MVP six other times, made the All Star team 24 times. Was he not great because he didn't "win"?

 

As for Hall of Famers who "swing out of their helmets regularly", yeah, I know multiple players that would fit that description. Reggie Jackson struck out 2,597 times in his career. The great Babe Ruth struck out more than 2,000 times in his career. It was said the only thing more exciting than a Babe Ruth home run was watching Babe Ruth strike out. Now, I'm not inferring that Carlos Gomez is anywhere near the player that Ruth and Jackson were, but it's silly to dismiss what Gomez has done the last two years because he swings for the fences.

 

Look, he has had a down year this year (again, because of some minor injuries that has slowed him), and that is why we probably aren't getting what you would like to see. If we had traded him last year, or the year before, especially, we'd have gotten more. As it stands, we got quite a lot for a player we only controlled for one more season. And nobody here is comparing him to Molitor or Yount ability wise. Those guys are Hall of Famers. He had two outstanding seasons after flashing a lot of ability throughout the early portion of his career. But to completely dismiss what he's done these last two years because he's had a sub par 2015 is just amusing. He's not yet 30. He's in great shape, and if the hammy issues are behind him, he will be an electric addition to the Astros lineup.

 

Healthy, he's a threat to hit 25 home runs, steal 30 + bases, and win a Gold Glove in center. Know how many teams would love to have that kind of player roaming center field? Great defense wins games. Home runs win games. Stealing bases helps to win games. Gomez is a flawed hitter. He'll probably never hit .300, but in the mid .280s with those other "tools" is pretty darned good, if you ask me.

 

I think you are being far too critical of him. You don't like WAR? Fine. You know what? I'm not a fan of it myself, especially when it comes to historical data compilation. It might be an imperfect measurement, but it's a good quick look gauge on a player's overall performance. And there are few players over the last few years who have been a better combination of offense, defense, and base stealing than Gomez. That is what the Astros are banking on.

[The stache]

And yes, I know Ruth didn't wear a helmet back then. I was speaking metaphorically. He oft went up there swinging for the seats, only to walk back to the bench with a big "K" on the scorecard.

[danzig6767]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

I'm to lazy right now to research those players you wanted compared to what the Brewers actually got, but in real baseball trade discussions, one side doesn't get to decide on whoever they want and the other team will just say sure, pick who you want.

 

One frustrating thing to me on many sports forums being it baseball, basketball, or football, often a number of fans will post stuff like "we should have gotten X player/players instead"or if one seller got what seems like an especially good return for a veteran player traded, fans on forums of other sellers will start screaming stuff like "our GM is an idiot for not getting that prospect for a player our team was shopping", just totally assuming that the buying team would have wanted our player instead.

 

With so much media today and social media, so many "rumors" get thrown out there about supposedly teams talking and over certain players, but then when actual trades do or don't happen, a big chunk of those rumors were mostly something for claimed insiders to put out there so they themselves get noticed.

 

Unfortunately for hardcore sports fans who absolutely love stuff like trades, the draft, and/or the offseason with free agency, team front offices talk with others a ton when it comes to just feeling things out for maybe a trade later or when trade discussions get very serious, but we fans only hear a sliver at best about

 

1. What teams really talked with each other.

 

2. When talking, were the trade discussions serious.

 

3. If serious, what players were involved on both sides.

 

4. What team/GM said no and why did they say no which could involve a variety of factors.

 

5. Did ownership get involved and block a deal over money or say not wanting to rebuild seriously.

 

Nothing brings traffic to sports forums like trade deadlines/rumored trades in general, drafts, free agency, etc, yet sadly we only get to hear a tiny fraction of what teams talked out with others. That's frustrating, but at the same time exciting and leads to people constantly checking online to see if something went down or any new rumor, regardless if it's likely based on little to no substance. This stuff is the crack/meth for sports junkies.

[danzig6767]

Yeah, all those home runs and stolen bases were just painful to watch. Especially because sometimes he didn't do those things -- what kind of player is that? It sure is funny how he fooled the baseball writers into two straight top-15 MVP finishes.

And we won what with that all world player?

I think you are being far too critical of him. You don't like WAR? Fine. You know what? I'm not a fan of it myself, especially when it comes to historical data compilation. It might be an imperfect measurement, but it's a good quick look gauge on a player's overall performance. And there are few players over the last few years who have been a better combination of offense, defense, and base stealing than Gomez. That is what the Astros are banking on.

No kidding, MLB isn't the NBA where one truly great player can turn a mediocre or even bad team into a good one largely just by himself. That simply doesn't happen in baseball, regardless of how great that baseball player is. Mike Trout is the best player in the game, yet put him say on the Philles and they wouldn't make the playoffs. He may not ever win a ring. Since my days watching baseball, the only player who by himself tilted the field in his team's way in a such dramatic way was Bonds at the height of his roids and incredible hitting skills days. Those 1.300 plus and even 1.400 OPS numbers which highly likely will never come close to being touched again.

 

As for Gomez and my feelings for him, it was a remarkable turnaround. I hated him as a player and hated that trade when his hitting terrible. He seemed a lost cause at the plate. Once he turned that around though, it allowed me to take the hater blinders off and then see all of the great attributes of Carlos the person. His always try very hard attitude, regardless if the Brewers were down say 8-9 runs. The joy he showed playing the game which many don't show. The obvious love all of his teammates had for him. Never complaining at all about accepting his 3 yr contract extension. By then he became my favorite Brewer and i would love to see him not just in the playoffs, but shining in them. The Astros became the team i hope wins it all this year.

[clancyphile]

As for Gomez and my feelings for him, it was a remarkable turnaround. I hated him as a player and hated that trade when his hitting terrible. He seemed a lost cause at the plate. Once he turned that around though, it allowed me to take the hater blinders off and then see all of the great attributes of Carlos the person. His always try very hard attitude, regardless if the Brewers were down say 8-9 runs. The joy he showed playing the game which many don't show. The obvious love all of his teammates had for him. Never complaining at all about accepting his 3 yr contract extension. By then he became my favorite Brewer and i would love to see him not just in the playoffs, but shining in them. The Astros became the team i hope wins it all this year.

 

I mourned the trade of JJ Hardy. Honestly, I thought the Brewers had made a BIG mistake. But Gomez proved me wrong - he became one of the best center fielders in the game. I'm gonna miss having him patrolling center in Miller Park.

[MrTPlush]

I and anyone else can love a player for whatever reasons we so wish. They don't need massive stats or help us win a world series. I'm not sure why someone would try to criticize someone for liking a player more than another. Did you ever think some of us didn't exist back in the Yount/Molitor days? No probably not. Those two are nowhere near my favorite Brewers of all time because I never watched them play...so really in the end I could not care less about them.

 

Carlos Gomez is by far my favorite Brewer EVER. Sorry Yount/Molitor....

[JohnBriggs12]

Though he could be aggravating at times, Gomez is one of my all time favorites as well. I will never forget the day he had a "walk off" stolen base to beat the D-Backs. It was the same day the Brewer employee tragically died in the bullpen earlier.

 

As for the trade, eh, it's one that will take 2-3 years to evaluate. I have a sneaking suspicion the arms they got back will be not unlike the ones Melvin's swung and missed on many times before. Phillips has All Star potential for sure, but potential is the key word. Going to be very hard to get excited to watch this team now. Glad football season is starting.

[torts]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

 

And giving up the competitive balance pick doesn't sit very well with me, either. I'd rather be acquiring such picks, not giving them up.

 

I'm pretty sure we didn't give up a draft pick. We gave up some money in the international signing pool. Not the same thing.

 

Per espn: The Astros also acquire the 76th international signing slot for the 2015-16 signing period.

 

So how does that work?

 

Not that I like giving up a slot of anything to re-stock a farm system.

 

its money that is spent on getting, typically, latin american players in June/July when they're still 16/17 years old.. which by the next CBA (after the 2016 season), could all be changed. Not a real big loss by any means

[torts]

also, I REALLY hope Fiers does well in Houston, but I have to kind of wonder how much having Lucroy catching played into his success. Houston as a team has hit 83 Hrs at home vs 50 on the road, while the pitchers have given up 46 HRs at home vs 38 on the road. Fiers had given up 32 at home vs only 9 on the road, in 30 plus games. I hope nothing but success for him, but I wont miss those miller park bombs he gave up!

[clancyphile]

In some ways, the deal is a good haul.

 

I mean, to get two top 100 prospects and two good arms... who couldn't like that?

 

That said, I'd rather have gone with ONE of Phillips or Santana (and I am torn between them - Phillips is a left-handed bat, while Santana looks like a 3TO player), and instead get 3B Colin Moran and one of Tony Kemp or Nolan Fontana instead. Moran would be a young 3B prospect, and Kemp and Fontana are versatile players who are OBP machines.

I'm to lazy right now to research those players you wanted compared to what the Brewers actually got, but in real baseball trade discussions, one side doesn't get to decide on whoever they want and the other team will just say sure, pick who you want.

 

One frustrating thing to me on many sports forums being it baseball, basketball, or football, often a number of fans will post stuff like "we should have gotten X player/players instead"or if one seller got what seems like an especially good return for a veteran player traded, fans on forums of other sellers will start screaming stuff like "our GM is an idiot for not getting that prospect for a player our team was shopping", just totally assuming that the buying team would have wanted our player instead.

 

With so much media today and social media, so many "rumors" get thrown out there about supposedly teams talking and over certain players, but then when actual trades do or don't happen, a big chunk of those rumors were mostly something for claimed insiders to put out there so they themselves get noticed.

 

Unfortunately for hardcore sports fans who absolutely love stuff like trades, the draft, and/or the offseason with free agency, team front offices talk with others a ton when it comes to just feeling things out for maybe a trade later or when trade discussions get very serious, but we fans only hear a sliver at best about

 

1. What teams really talked with each other.

 

2. When talking, were the trade discussions serious.

 

3. If serious, what players were involved on both sides.

 

4. What team/GM said no and why did they say no which could involve a variety of factors.

 

5. Did ownership get involved and block a deal over money or say not wanting to rebuild seriously.

 

Nothing brings traffic to sports forums like trade deadlines/rumored trades in general, drafts, free agency, etc, yet sadly we only get to hear a tiny fraction of what teams talked out with others. That's frustrating, but at the same time exciting and leads to people constantly checking online to see if something went down or any new rumor, regardless if it's likely based on little to no substance. This stuff is the crack/meth for sports junkies.

 

I get all that.

 

That being said, I think you are being a little dismissive. I have mixed emotions about the return the Brewers got. While the prospects are good - including two top 100 prospects - and I think it's a far better deal than the Mets were offering, I think the Brewers bought themselves a little difficulty.

 

Take a look at the outfield picture in the wake of this trade. From my perspective, the Brewers have a logjam:

* Santana is in Colorado Springs (AAA)

* Phillips is joining Victor Roache, Tyrone Taylor, and Michael Reed in Biloxi (AA)

* Clint Coulter is in Brevard County (A+)

* Trent Clark ®, Demi Orimoloye ®, Monte Harrison (R+), Omar Cotto (A), Joangtel Segovia (R+), and Marcos Pinero (DSL) are at the lower rungs of the system.

 

Even if the Brewers trade Khris Davis in the offseason, there's two outfield spots to fill, three if you move Braun. The NL doesn't have the DH (it needs to get with the times), so that's going to get... interesting. The players at A and below are still a longer roll of the dice, so let's just look at the six players in AA or higher.

 

The good news is that Taylor (.649 OPS) is probably going to be a 4th/5th OF, so he's on the bench.

 

That means that between Coulter, Phillips, Reed, Santana, and Roache, I need to put two players with Braun in the outfield. So, which two of the rookies sit? Reed, the OBP/speed machine whose offensive skill set is strong where the Brewers have been the weakest? Phillips and/or Santana, the guys we gave up Carlos Gomez for? Roache, who's looking like a huge offensive threat? Or is it Coulter, who may be undervalued due to playing in the pitcher-friendly Florida State League, and whose home games are in Brevard County, which depresses offensive numbers even more?

 

The only way to get all six in the lineup is to put one of Phillips, Santana, and Roache at first base while the other two patrol the corner OF slots, have Coulter take over for Lucroy/Maldonado behind the plate, and to move Braun to you-know-where.

 

The other option is to trade one or two of those prospects at a later date to fill a hole the Brewer have... and some Brewers pitcher will have to face them. That's not terribly appealing to me, either.

 

EDIT: Furthermore, if you were to look up the players I wanted instead, I think you'd have been less dismissive of my complaints.

[craigharmann]

Isn't Santana in AAA and Phillips in AA? That's where they were in Houston.