Crimes to Sport- Favre, Rose, Braun

[rickh150]

Sitting around... Watching Favre's speech with friends. A discussion and debate breaks out. Which player's crime to sport was the greatest? Favre split a franchise with his retirements and eventually got back at the organization by beating Packers twice with a division rival. Braun used PEDs and lied about it. Rose bet on baseball as a player and more importantly, as a manager.

 

Three people debated and all had a different list from greatest crime to sport to least.... Very interesting to me... So I thought I'd post it here too.

 

My list from greatest crime to least

 

1.Rose..... His gambling on baseball was and is the ultimate sport offense. The position of manager could definitely dictate losses and could set up wins more easily by resting players/bullpen to perform on betting days. Connections with other players/managers in the game to throw games to get a big payday or pay off a debt would be the logical next step, and a sport could commit suicide by letting that climate fester....... Black Sox scandal- worst blemish on any sport in history. He lied and continues to lie, based on recent articles, about his former gambling involvement, even as a player.

 

2.Braun- He used PEDs, he lied, he kinda got caught and then fessed up.... Remorseful, but not too apologetic. Getting over 100 mill based on inflated stats. On plus side, he seems fan friendly and charitable, but that is outside the debated question.

 

3. Favre - drama queen... Didn't know how to quit. Retired (finally) and ultimately changed his mind, unexpectedly finds that Packers have moved on.....he still wants to play and take down Ted's Packers (and does). He's ultimately splits a franchise's allegiances to player and organization (not team's fault, IMO). Drags out the ugly on TV and does not think of the organization, as a whole, in the slightest by going to a division rival. Overall, still lightest sports crime compared to other two.

 

Many think of Favre as a hero tonight..... Funny thing, though, if Adrian Petersen doesn't fumble a couple of balls in the NFC champ. Game in 2009 or Favre doesn't throw lame pass in last minute of 4th quarter and Vikings go on to win game and then Super Bowl, Favre's night tonight with all the bell's and whistles does not happen. In fact, he would be booed to no end and he would be a Benedict Arnold character to most cheese heads to their death beds. Moreover, If he would have stayed retired in 2008, along with a night like this, there also would be a statue unveiled by now of him between Lambeau and Lombardi.

 

Strange world of sports.....

[JimH5]

I don't think Favre did anything wrong. He wanted to play, he wanted to get paid and the Packers didn't want him.

 

If Packers fans want to hold that against him, too bad. They got more than their money's worth out of him. He was ridiculous at the end, with all the teasing between organizations, etc. but that's up to us to pay attention or ignore.

 

Rose clearly is on the top of the list, then Braun, and Favre is at the bottom.

[SRB]

In reverse order of actually trying to help his team win (which is the only thing I care about as a sports fan, as opposed to amateur moral theorist) (i.e. greatest "crime" to least):

 

1) Favre

 

2) Rose (neutral)

 

3) Braun

[Outlander]

Favre didn't do a crime he just changed his mind a lot and the Packers finally called his bluff. Plenty of great players leave a franchise and plenty of franchises get rid if once great players.

[jerichoholicninja]

Favre leaving led to Aaron Rodgers playing. Packer fans have no reason to be mad at Brett Favre.

[DocLuna7]

FWIW Brett Favre was traded to the Jets.

[craigharmann]

Looking back at it, I was ticked at Favre for going back on his retirement, expecting the Packers to roll out the red carpet. They did the wise thing and moved on, had Rodgers not been half as good as he has been, there may have been much more revisionist history. But, we've got a hall of famer going to another hall of famer. So it all works out.

[superfly]

Favre haters....put the sour grapes away for crying out loud. #1 The man loved playing football so much he COULDN'T quit until his body forced him to. Stop blaming him, we needed to give Rodgers a shot. #2 If Favre doesn't leave when he did we may not even have Rodgers. And #3 I don't know about anyone else but I had more fun with the Packers/Vikings rivalry during those two years when I was at school in Minnesota than I have ever had with a rivalry (Bears or Vikings or Seahawks). That was absolutely great.

 

Favre is the man.

[sauveb]

I think you are confusing "crime to sport" with "crime to Packers fans". What Favre did was probably good for the sport. It temporarily intensified a rivalry that made the games more interesting and was financially beneficial for the sport. It could easily be argued that, in the long run, what he did was good for the Packers too.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I'd go Rose, Braun, Favre too. And I was generally a Favre hater thinking he was overrated his last ten years or so, living off what he did earlier. I hated his back and forth every offseason but it doesn't really approach Rose or even Braun.

 

Interesting take SRB, never would have thought of it that way. Try making that argument haha, Braun is a hero because he risked personal disgrace to try to win the WS.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Favre haters....put the sour grapes away for crying out loud. #1 The man loved playing football so much he COULDN'T quit until his body forced him to. Stop blaming him, we needed to give Rodgers a shot. #2 If Favre doesn't leave when he did we may not even have Rodgers. And #3 I don't know about anyone else but I had more fun with the Packers/Vikings rivalry during those two years when I was at school in Minnesota than I have ever had with a rivalry (Bears or Vikings or Seahawks). That was absolutely great.

 

Favre is the man.

 

I don't think it's sour grapes. It's people on two sides of this argument who have a different perspective on the team and how to value players (and their legacies), and both sides can be blind to points the other tries to make. My wife and Father-in-law were very pro-Favre early on. When I had heard how the fans were treating Aaron Rodgers in his first Training Camp as the starter (booing, cursing, treatening to fight him), I marched down to Pro Shop and bought a #12 jersey (and I hate paying full price for anything ). He was the annoited QB of my team, and that's who I was going to support. To me, the people that treated Rodgers so poorly had no business being Packer fans. It's one thing to think that Favre got screwed, it's another thing entirely to spew your hate on the new guy who had nothing to do with the situation. So we got a lot of laughs sitting at games that season, me in my #12 jersey and my wife in her #4. Both sides have, for the most part, moved on and reconciled. Some, like my wife, have finally seen the light.

 

To address your points above:

 

#1 - Favre DID quit. He had a hissy fit that the Packers didn't sign Randy Moss as a FA (the 2nd failed attempt to acquire Moss in 2 years). It was a knee-jerk, emotional decision on his part. He announced his retirement only like a day or two after Moss re-signed with the Pats. He was really upset and didn't think it all the way through. But it provided an opportunity for TT/MM to do what they probably really wanted to do - move on from Favre, who was tending to take even more chances on the field (who the heck was he even trying to throw that ball to in OT in the NFCCG anyways?).

 

#2 - Technically Favre didn't leave. He was traded, which, with the benefit of hindsight, was 100% the right thing to do. Many people forget that Rodgers was entering the 4th year of his rookie contract (a 5 year deal). If they would have let Favre back in at that point, we're not talking about how that delayed the Aaron Rodgers era by a year or two. We're most likely talking about how a decision to bring back Favre led to there never being an Aaron Rodgers era in Green Bay. Heck, maybe he would have been significantly disgruntled himself to have signed with the QB-starved Vikings before the 2009 season. That is not a world I want to live in.

 

Also, without the Favre trade, there is no Clay Matthews in Green Bay. The draft pick they received back the Jets was used to trade back into the first round of the 2009 draft to select Matthews. They almost certainly don't end up with Matthews without trading Favre, and almost certainly don't win the Super Bowl in 2010 (or even make the playoffs) without Matthews having a defensive player of the year-type season.

 

Now, as far as "crimes" go, I'm not sure why Favre would even be mentioned with Rose & Braun. Favre was guilty of making a premature decision, trying to undo it, and then threw a fit trying to get himself released. He did more damage to his own legacy than to his team.

[rickh150]

What Favre did to a sports franchise, ultimately on his own doing... Completely...... Splitting it against itself...,, some siding with Favre to the point of cheering against the home team, is much more personal to some (not me) and is more "wrong", whether it being to Packer fans or any other fan base, than anything Rose or Braun did. Who in history has tried to do more to "get back" at his old organization than FaVre?????

 

That being said, I am glad that some healing was done over the weekend, that he is in the Packers hall of fame, and that the wonderful fans welcomed him back with open arms in an ultimate show of Grace, harkening me to think tearily of the parable of the prodigal son.

[FVBrewerFan]

Favre and Packers management were both right...and they were both wrong. The whole thing could have been handled better by both sides, yes maybe moreso by Favre. But the guy could still obviously play, so hard to say he was wrong for doing so. I hated that all scene, how he played for the Vikings, etc.

 

But enough time has gone by that I can forgive. I watched all the footage over the weekend, and it reminded me how exciting he was. And, after all is said and done, Ron Wolf and Brett Favre are the reasons why the Packers are in the position they are today.

[JJHardy7]

I guess the Favre situation hasn't been completely healed.

 

And I guess it depends on what the question is...in regard to sport I think Favre leaving was awesome for the NFL. Gambling and PEDs are bad in baseball.

 

The question to me is...what is worse? Gambling or PEDs?

[JimH5]

Gambling is much worse.

 

It gives entry to the possibility that the competition is compromised and that one side may not be playing to win--the very nature of sport.

[JJHardy7]

I agree, but if you are always betting on your team I don't see the issue.

 

I also am guessing it would make more sense to be against your team...that is much worse than PEDs.

[JimH5]

Betting on your own team by the same amount each game, every game, offers the best defense that you have not let gamblers influence your play. Still, if others know you have money on that game, that could still effect the outcome. If a teammate, opponent, umpire or scorer wishes to do harm to you or the bookmaker, they could do things outside of your control to influence the outcome of the wager.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree, but if you are always betting on your team I don't see the issue.

 

What about the games you don't bet then? Basically the same thing as betting against your team, if you always bet on them winning otherwise.

 

Plus, there's the danger of betting wrong too often, which means you're in a hole and may start doing desperate things. That's the danger with gambling, lots of unintended consequences, and lots of slippery slopes.

[JJHardy7]

I'm not advocating for it...I'm just saying if a player made 20 bets a year in baseball all on his own team...that wouldn't really upset me. This is in a vacuum...obviously the thought could be when you don't bet on your team the bookie is betting against your team, etc, etc.

 

In reality, I would guess there are bets for and against your team and that would be bad.

[BillScottCanRake]

Let's say when Rose was manager he bet a significant amount of money on the Reds to win a game on some Monday in June. Because he's got a good chunk of money on the game he burns thru his bullpen in way he wouldn't normally. The Reds win Monday but with the pen shot the blow late leads on Tuesday and Wednesday. In such a case, betting on his own team caused Rose to harm his teams chances of winning on Tuesday and Wednesday because it was in his own personal best interest for the Reds to win on Monday. So, instead of playing to win as many games as possible, Rose is playing to selectively win games that he's bet upon.

 

Another scenario would be that Rose bets on the Reds in each and every game without exception. That seems like it would be OK, because he's going to have to manage to win as many games as possible, just like he would have to if he were managing to get the Reds into the postseason. But what if, during an extended losing streak, Rose becomes indebted to the gamblers? They say, "Pete, if you can't pay us the money you owe us, we are going to need you to throw a few games to pay off your debt. Otherwise you'll be taking a swim with the fishes." What happens then? He's already breaking the rules against betting on baseball, so what are the odds he throws five games to pay off his debt? And what if the throws a few games to a team that ends up winning their division by 1 game? Or what if his own team just misses the playoffs?

 

The idea of betting on ones own team seems harmless enough, but it can have all sorts of unintended consequences.

[tmwiese55]

Bill absolutely nailed it. In addition, if someone is willing to cross this well known rule to bet on his own team, it's only a matter of until he starts betting against his own team. Slippery slope and with true degenerate gamblers it's only a matter of time.

[JJHardy7]

I get all that, but again like I said in a vacuum.

 

I think issue with gambling that I wonder if it still goes on is when it comes to referees/umpires, etc. It is much easier to buy them off than it is a player or coach.

[rickh150]

The common belief to many, especially the next generation of 20 something's and teens, is that any type of gambling is fine. Gambling is legalized with casinos and lotteries. Fantasy sports, with money on the line, is common. What they don't see or commonly hear is the terribly ugly and dangerous side to gambling that simply cannot be overstated..... Particularly, the danger it brings to big time sport with point shaving or tanking games, is off the chart bad for the health and longevity of any sport. Even more so, lives are on the line. Because of the naive nature of the next generation (when it comes to gambling) and the humongous amounts of money being involved at so many pro and college sports now, plan on more Black Sox like scandals....soon.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Braun cheated his game, along with a TON of other players during the steroid era and afterwards. Every player who was caught initially lied about their PED use, only to eventually have to admit they were PED users and liars. Braun's was higher profile because he had just won MVP and decided to throw that absurdly shortsighted press conference after his suspension was initially thrown out.

 

Rose cheated his game by doing breaking one of the cardinal rules governing baseball - don't bet on baseball. For that reason he should never, ever be inducted into the baseball HOF. His records and career is documented in baseball annals and the HOF already, I see no need to put a bust of him in Cooperstown to go along with it.

 

Favre didn't cheat the game, he cheated on his wife and made a fool of himself. He was addicted to pain killers during the early part of his career, which in itself could be considered a PED - although the NFL is notorious for pushing painkillers on players to keep them on the field no matter what the longterm health costs are. The only thing I didn't like with Favre was his second retirement after one year with the Jets - he still had time left on his old contract, and by him retiring he suddenly became eligible to sign with any team rather than having the Jets control where he'd be headed. He gamed the system in much the same way the Packers gamed it to try and keep him away from competing against them.

 

Of things done as crimes to sport goes, I'd say Favre by far was the least criminal, Braun's actions would be considered a felony, and Rose's actions are well deserving to land him on the sportsworld's death row.

[nodakfan17]

Favre split a franchise with his retirements and eventually got back at the organization by beating Packers twice with a division rival.

I never understood the angle that Favre somehow got revenge on the Packers by beating them twice in 2009. The Packers beat Favre and the Vikings twice in 2010 in route to a Super Bowl. 2 wins, 2 losses, 0 Super Bowls - he really stuck it to the Packers, I guess (sarcasm). Most Brett Favre apologists seem to conveniently forget the Clay Matthews aspect too. I had to listen to their whining on local radio for 3 years until they finally went silent after February 6th, 2010.

 

And in assessing crimes to sport - order Rose / Braun however you'd like. The Favre retirement saga was a little petty, but loving your sport is not a crime. If anything, it was good for the NFL as it gave us 3 more years to watch Brett Favre.