Improving Infield Defense

[gregmag]

(I started to write this in the Jimmy Nelson thread, but I didn't want to hijack it.) Whatever people's views on the moral valence of luck or these kids and their newfangled stats, we pretty clearly need to improve our infield defense. We have groundball pitchers up and down the system, so this seems like a pretty major priority.

 

How do we do it? I don't have much of a knowledge base (I don't see many games), but my sense is that Segura is our only reliable infield defender. Ramirez and Lind have very bad defensive reputations; Scooter seems to have a mediocre one. Is that how it has shaken out on the field, or am I missing something? Also, does anyone know how the utility guys are?

 

Ramirez is gone at some point during or after this season. I assume we'll try to deal Lind (to the A.L.). We're likely to get better at those spots, or at very least we'll have the opportunity to do so. Is Scooter's his defense enough of a problem that he needs to be a plus bat to play, or is he okay? We've got shortstops in the pipeline, and we could plug one of them in at 2b if we soured on Scooter and/or when he gets expensive. Of course that raises the question of whether to trade Segura, now or later.

 

I'd like to know what you all think.

[ewitkows]

All you can do right now is bring up Dominguez to play 3rd. Problem is he is a black hole offensively

[CheezWizHed]

I think this is more of interest in the coming years than this year specifically:

Improvement:

#1: Ramirez retires, someone other than Ryan Braun steps in

#2: Bring up Arcia, Move Segura to 2B.

#3: Lind is replaced (traded, contract expire, etc..). At 31, he doesn't have a long term place with the Brewers. Although, is Lind really part of the problem here?

 

After one or two years, our INF is going to look very different naturally.

[ewitkows]

If Segura could hit with a little more power , I'd love to move him to 3rd and at 2nd go to scooter/rivera / sardinas

[JohnBriggs12]

Hernan Perez, Hello!?

 

No need for Arcia to be in the majors before next June at the earliest. They haven't come out and said it but it appears Perez is taking over 3B now. Ramirez will make the occasional start to keep his stroke and be in the lineup vs. lefties when Perez moves over to 2B. Perez hasn't played much 3B but he looks like a natural there so far.

 

Lind is a lousy defensive 1B but he's a proven middle of the order hitter, and as such Brewers need to demand a substantial return if they choose (they don't have to) to deal him.

[danzig6767]

If Segura could hit with a little more power , I'd love to move him to 3rd and at 2nd go to scooter/rivera / sardinas

 

I'd trade Segura before wasting his defensive gifts as a shortstop by playing him at thirdbase.

[MrTPlush]

If Segura could hit with a little more power , I'd love to move him to 3rd and at 2nd go to scooter/rivera / sardinas

 

I'd trade Segura before wasting his defensive gifts as a shortstop by playing him at thirdbase.

 

Defensive Gifts? He isn't even that good of a SS. I'd peg him some what above average, but nothing to write home about.

[danzig6767]

If Segura could hit with a little more power , I'd love to move him to 3rd and at 2nd go to scooter/rivera / sardinas

 

I'd trade Segura before wasting his defensive gifts as a shortstop by playing him at thirdbase.

 

Defensive Gifts? He isn't even that good of a SS. I'd peg him some what above average, but nothing to write home about.

You have to be gifted to be an above average major league fielder at arguably the most important defensive position on the field.

 

Now i could potentially get behind playing him at secondbase if Arcia were at shortstop next season, but wouldn't waste his range at thirdbase. He could be traded instead to a team who needs a shortstop, where his ability to play that position increases his overall value as a player.

[CheezWizHed]

Rivera's recent emergence could add some interest to our future INF, but otherwise I don't see anyone else of impact (i.e. someone worthy of playing on a WS contender) in the AA/AAA levels. Sardinas and Gennett still look more like stop-gaps to me than above average starters.

 

So perhaps Arcia/Rivera/Segura (wherever they play) might work. It would be an excellent D, light hitting 3B/SS/2B combination. Although, if they averaged 750 OPS, that probably wouldn't be too bad. Or perhaps we find a 3B another way (Perez/FA/trade).

 

My only comment on trading Lind is that we aren't going anywhere under his current contract. I'd prefer to trade him now and build for the future. Lind won't be our 1B in 2 years when our "next wave" starts to come up. So why waste him now?

[jerichoholicninja]

The organization needs to actually care about defense first instead of just drafting bats and then shoving them in LF/RF/1B.

[JohnBriggs12]

Rivera's recent emergence could add some interest to our future INF, but otherwise I don't see anyone else of impact (i.e. someone worthy of playing on a WS contender) in the AA/AAA levels. Sardinas and Gennett still look more like stop-gaps to me than above average starters.

 

So perhaps Arcia/Rivera/Segura (wherever they play) might work. It would be an excellent D, light hitting 3B/SS/2B combination. Although, if they averaged 750 OPS, that probably wouldn't be too bad. Or perhaps we find a 3B another way (Perez/FA/trade).

 

My only comment on trading Lind is that we aren't going anywhere under his current contract. I'd prefer to trade him now and build for the future. Lind won't be our 1B in 2 years when our "next wave" starts to come up. So why waste him now?

 

The "wave" you speak about isn't going to be enough to dislodge the Cubs who's current wave will be in their primes by 2017 or likely the Cardinals or Pirates either. In the meantime, they still have Lucroy and Braun in or near their primes. Lind should bring a decent return but it's not likely it will be someone who'll be in the core of the wave. Unless someone overpays for Lind or surrenders a young mid rotation arm, I'd keep him around and at least field a team with some entertainment value and at least longshot playoff hopes (rather than no hope) while we wait on the prospects. He can be moved next year at this time too and it's not like they won't have pieces to deal in the next couple years as the wave is arriving.

[CheezWizHed]

I agree that our next "wave" is pretty weak. Which is why I advocate to add to it (thus trading Lind). Plus, I'd rather suck this year and rebuild (and get a high draft pick) than field a mediocre team this year and next. Same discussion that was going on with the Bucks a few years back. They did enough to make the #8 seed of the playoffs, but were a joke against a #1 seed in the playoffs.

 

I'd rather dismantle right now and build around Arcia and others. That probably means a trade of Lucroy also (as much as it hurts to say that).

 

Edit: I just found this article from BrewCrewBall that sums up my thoughts above nicely.

[clancyphile]

Okay, but to win a game, you need to score runs as well.

 

The Brewers offense is looking pretty darn anemic most of the time. Nice defense means we lose 3-1 or 4-2. Thanks, I'll pass. Just get me some darn good bats.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Okay, but to win a game, you need to score runs as well.

 

The Brewers offense is looking pretty darn anemic most of the time. Nice defense means we lose 3-1 or 4-2. Thanks, I'll pass. Just get me some darn good bats.

 

 

They tried that approach already. Just getting guys and sticking them wherever doesn't really work.

[jerichoholicninja]

Okay, but to win a game, you need to score runs as well.

 

The Brewers offense is looking pretty darn anemic most of the time. Nice defense means we lose 3-1 or 4-2. Thanks, I'll pass. Just get me some darn good bats.

 

 

They tried that approach already. Just getting guys and sticking them wherever doesn't really work.

 

It can work if you have a stacked rotation ala the Tigers of a few years ago. But, yes, I'm sick of the general apathy towards defense of this franchise.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Okay, but to win a game, you need to score runs as well.

 

The Brewers offense is looking pretty darn anemic most of the time. Nice defense means we lose 3-1 or 4-2. Thanks, I'll pass. Just get me some darn good bats.

 

 

They tried that approach already. Just getting guys and sticking them wherever doesn't really work.

 

It can work if you have a stacked rotation ala the Tigers of a few years ago. But, yes, I'm sick of the general apathy towards defense of this franchise.

 

 

Agree... totally. Runs scored/allowed is a total formula. Doug seems to think that the defensive part of the formula is a complete non-factor. Same with RRR. That's how we ended up with Mark Kotsay in CF in one of the most critical games in franchise history.

[Thurston Fluff]

Agree... totally. Runs scored/allowed is a total formula. Doug seems to think that the defensive part of the formula is a complete non-factor. Same with RRR. That's how we ended up with Mark Kotsay in CF in one of the most critical games in franchise history.

 

If you want to use an example of taking the totality of offense and defense into account you can probably find a better example than the overused Kotsay in center one. There was as extreme a lack of offense the other center fielders provided as Kotsay had on defense. I didn't like the move because I thought it would have been better to try to win a 1-0 game than a 7-5 game. But that doesn't mean I thought there was no logical reasoning behind it if you take into account the totality of offense and defense. That said I think Doug does underestimate defense.

[craigharmann]

I'll use the example of the Astros. It's where I live, so it's what I see. Carlos Correa is a stud. 5 tool amazing player. Do you know how they got him? Sure, the whole tanking thing. But here's the interesting part. They drafted him first, because the goal was to get him to take a little less than slot value so they could throw a little more at their second pick, Lance McCullers Jr.....also now coming into his own. They used the draft, worked with their scouts to get these guys. Then, in the minor league system, they developed them and worked with them. This year's draft the same way. Their first two picks they were able to get signed at less than slot so that they could go over and above to get Daz Cameron. All of that to get to this conclusion. It has to be an organization wide system in place. We draft good players with offensive AND defensive ability, and then invest the time and energy into developing them and bettering them. In watching the Astros and their system, they've got a great system in place. Comparing it with the Brewers, it's not even close. Now, Arcia could definitely a cornerstone for years to come. And he's got the tools. But who else? Scooter? Eh. Moving Segura to second definitely betters you. And what about third? Those are your key positions. Obviously I'm not a baseball expert, but to me, it's got to be investing in developing these guys in the minors.

[The stache]

The organization needs to actually care about defense first instead of just drafting bats and then shoving them in LF/RF/1B.

 

We have a winner!

[The stache]

Maybe Arcia is a mutant, and can play second and short at the same time. That would be swell.

 

And LOL @ "next wave". I have great hopes for Gatewood, Harrison, etc....but they're so far away, they don't qualify as a wave. Maybe a ripple. But that's what we pin our hopes to.

 

I think Orlando Arcia could be a special player. God forbid we even think about trading him. If our team is terrible, but he becomes the player we all think he can (and will) be, that would be enough to keep me happy. I've seen enough bad Brewer baseball in my lifetime. Give me somebody young, and exciting again. Somebody who can make the big play defensively, somebody who doesn't go up there hacking away at pitches three feet off the plate. I just want some hope again.

 

No pressure, Mr. Arcia. A whole city (and state) is watching you, hoping you're the real deal.

[MrTPlush]

I know people like to make this seem like an easy choice, but really it just isn't the reality of the matter. No doubt the Brewers have had some preference in bat over defense like most teams. Drafted Coulter despite no position and added Aramis Ramirez despite rather lackluster defense. Still the only real choice of offense over defense was all the strange experiments at 1B and then throwing anyone in the OF. In those cases you could probably argue the defense would have been more beneficial. But who is taking someone over Lind right now for defense? I can not think of anyone.

 

Good defense is something you just hope for...you can only help that so much and then you just have to hope you develop the right guys. Sometimes the Khris Davis' turn out and the defensive studs end up Schafer like duds with the bat.

[clancyphile]

Okay, but to win a game, you need to score runs as well.

 

The Brewers offense is looking pretty darn anemic most of the time. Nice defense means we lose 3-1 or 4-2. Thanks, I'll pass. Just get me some darn good bats.

 

 

They tried that approach already. Just getting guys and sticking them wherever doesn't really work.

 

I think they haven't. See the decision to move Braun from third.

 

I agree Arcia is a stud, and he can bump Segura to second base, but even in a good year, Segura's offense looks very average. Kinda sounds a bit like the 2010s answer to Jim Gantner, and back in the late 80s, I wasn't very thrilled with Gantner at second. In 1988, I'd rather have put Sheffield at shortstop and moved Dale Sveum to second. That would have been enough to make up the two games the Brewers missed the playoff by that year. Maybe they'd have caught lightning against the A's... maybe not. But I think that Jim Gantner starting at second base and posting a .658 OPS is a huge mistake, and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that a Molitor-Sheffield-Sveum-Brock infield would not have been a better option for the Brewers on Opening Day 1988.

 

Right now, the Brewers could give Michael Reed a shot in center - he's proving to be an OBP/speed machine. Adam Weisenburger is an OBP/defense machine at catcher - and an exception to my usual preference (well, he draws walks and guns down half of the would-be basestealers). Nick Ramirez looks like he could be a cheap option at first.

 

So what would it hurt to try to trade Lind, Lucroy, and Gomez for some impact bats? Give me the bats. I can live with errors if they can produce with their bats. You can't win if you can't score runs.

 

* - And to head off the consternation... yes, I am openly committing some kind of Brewer fandom blasphemy by saying I'd have had Gantner on the bench - if he was even on the roster at all. I just look at his career numbers, and wonder why, oh why, he was allowed to start at second base for so long, and not be replaced.

[CheezWizHed]

I never was a Gantner fan back in the day... and I had no idea what OPS was then either. Granted, it probably wasn't until the 90s when I started wondering why they didn't replace him.

[1992casey]

I had no idea what OPS was then either.

 

OPS is pretty much a 21st century thing. We started hearing about OBP in the late 1980s. SLG has been around forever.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I had no idea what OPS was then either.

 

OPS is pretty much a 21st century thing. We started hearing about OBP in the late 1980s. SLG has been around forever.

 

I suspect (heck, not even suspect, but *know*) that there were managers who knew what sabremetrics were before Sabremetrics was a word.

 

Not directing this at you Casey, but quoting your post since your post is most relevant. Max Bishop was not a good hitter But he WAS good at getting on base.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=bishoma01&year=Career&t=b

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bishoma01.shtml

 

He hit almost exclusively leadoff in his career, in the 20's and 30's, despite sometimes hitting in the .240's and .250's. Connie Mack probably knew the value of walking 100+ times a year, even if OBP wasn't a "thing", I'm sure.

 

To go off on a tangent, I know people say managers don't make that big of a difference in W's and L's, but I'm willing to bet that kind of forward thinking can make a few W's show up at the end of a season when you're not tied to stodgy ideals like "put the fastest guy first"