Open for business (part 2)

[trwi7]

Listening to Attanasio was freaking depressing.

[MrTPlush]

Listening to Attanasio was freaking depressing.

 

Why? Seemed pretty non eventful. Nothing ground breaking either way.

[trwi7]

Listening to Attanasio was freaking depressing.

 

Why? Seemed pretty non eventful. Nothing ground breaking either way.

 

Not knowing why our old players aren't good anymore. Blaming injuries. We still have a lot of good players (i.e. we can go at it again next year). Creating an "experience" for fans to enjoy themselves (winning as many games as possible). Mentioning not trading K-Rod to Brian and Bill during the commercial because he "teaches the young guys in the bullpen so much."

[MrTPlush]

Listening to Attanasio was freaking depressing.

 

Why? Seemed pretty non eventful. Nothing ground breaking either way.

 

Not knowing why our old players aren't good anymore. Blaming injuries. We still have a lot of good players (i.e. we can go at it again next year). Creating an "experience" for fans to enjoy themselves (winning as many games as possible). Mentioning not trading K-Rod to Brian and Bill during the commercial because he "teaches the young guys in the bullpen so much."

 

The K-Rod talk was much about saying that they aren't just going to dump players to dump them. Just typical talk up your own players type stuff.

 

Creating an experience is a real thing. They can't just trade Gomez, Segura, Braun, Lucroy, and anyone else decent. You have to put something on the field. Main reason I don't think they wouldn't consider trading Lucroy(since Gomez is a sure goner). Even in a losing season you have to look like you are trying or fans are going to jump ship.

 

The other stuff I really think you just made to seem a lot worse than said. He noted about injuries, I don't recall anything about wondering how guys aren't producing, and you are just assuming he wants to go at it next year. He seemed quite aware the team sucks and it isn't just a fluke. If anything I think he was hinting at more of a short term rebuild. Which doesn't seem that great on the surface, but hard to predict how it will work.

[MrTPlush]

But really you can spin Attanasio's comments to sound like whatever you so feel. I tend to not take them so seriously because comments by the owner tend to appeal toward casual fans. Casual fans want to hear about great fan experience and not trading good players.

[LouisEly]

Not knowing why our old players aren't good anymore. Blaming injuries. We still have a lot of good players (i.e. we can go at it again next year). Creating an "experience" for fans to enjoy themselves (winning as many games as possible). Mentioning not trading K-Rod to Brian and Bill during the commercial because he "teaches the young guys in the bullpen so much."

 

No, he specifically said "injuries are not an excuse this year". He specifically said that this is "the first year we would be labeled a seller" (used the exact word "seller"). He specifically said that they are scouting other major league teams for needs and "where there might be an opportunity for us", and he specifically mentioned Aoki and Pence going on the DL for the Giants creating a need for OF. He said, "now we are looking to see where we can help fill other team's holes." He said that teams are just now starting to feel each other out regarding trades. He said they are looking at "younger players, both on the major league level and at the minor league level". He said that "Doug has been making some outbound calls". He said, "I don't think we are kidding ourselves as to where we are going to end up this year".

 

Brian and Bill were paraphrasing, who knows what the exact words that Mark was using, but Brian said, "People should not assume we are going to trade Francisco Rodriguez." He didn't say they wouldn't; he said they shouldn't assume they will, and that K-Rod has value beyond his pitching performance. I think this means they will not just dump him for some piddly return, and the value received needs to exceed the value given up, factoring in both pitching and leadership.

 

I have the game on my DVR and am pulling in exact quotes.

[bill hAll Star]

I watched/listened on the MLB At Bat app and it didn't feel too bad to me. He hinted they'd be sellers and even almost was implying that maybe they'd be offering an OF to SF (he mentioned the Aoki/Pence injuries to talk about how things can change quickly...but it just felt to me like that was one of their calls).

 

I still don't think they'll trade Braun or Lucroy but I felt OK after watching and it felt like they're willing to sell (but not enough for my liking probably still).

[superfly]

and it felt like they're willing to sell (but not enough for my liking probably still).

 

Well you can't just hoe yourself out, you have to maintain some semblance of a strong position on your side of a trade proposal. We'll sell something, i'm not sure what though.

[bill hAll Star]

Yeah, I was just saying I want them to move on from Lucroy at some point soon, but I don't think they will. I think in 2019, we'll have Braun and Lucroy playing way below what they should both making $20 million/year.

 

That said, I know how their minds work and the business angle and that they may just not get a good offer.

[3and2Fastball]

Carlos Gomez was discussed on MLB Network this morning. There was a mention of San Francisco being interested in Gomez

 

(edited in retrospect for accuracy)

[ewitkows]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

[bill hAll Star]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

 

That's a possibility...but while Luc is a very good hitter, one can find a fat, mashing 1B for cheap instead of moving Luc there and paying him $15-20 million/year as he declines (albeit a little slower).

 

I know that's easier said than done for the Brewers over the past few years, though.

[trwi7]

Here's the audio that Brian relayed from Mark last night.

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheBillMichaelsShow/videos/vb.109681869072477/1014015791972409/?type=2&theater

[MrTPlush]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

 

Jonathan Lucroy is never going to move to 1st by choice. He would have to be pushed there by just sucking on defense or injuries dominating him. No way the Brewers extend him just to move him to first. His bat would be of no use there.

[jerichoholicninja]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

 

Jonathan Lucroy is never going to move to 1st by choice. He would have to be pushed there by just sucking on defense or injuries dominating him. No way the Brewers extend him just to move him to first. His bat would be of no use there.

 

Joe Mauer. Great hitter for a catcher. Average to below average hitter as a first basemen. Please god do not let the Brewers pull a Mauer with Lucroy.

[tmwiese55]

I wonder if 2B could be an option for him ala Biggio. He'd be a good hitter for 2B but again you can't pay 20 mil like Mauer.

[ewitkows]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

 

Jonathan Lucroy is never going to move to 1st by choice. He would have to be pushed there by just sucking on defense or injuries dominating him. No way the Brewers extend him just to move him to first. His bat would be of no use there.

 

Last 3 years he ops'd .881, .795 and .838. If he's roughly a .840 1B then he'd be top 10 in all of baseball and basically the same as Lind.

[MrTPlush]

I can think of some better ways to waste money then extend a valuable trade asset who will be 32 in a new deal. While he is a borderline good 1B now he will most certainly not be when he starts to get up in the 32+ year old range...possible, but not something I gamble $80mil+ on.

 

Gomez/Lucroy are perfect players you never consider extending. Happy you had them on the cheap and trade them away. Now Lucroy may not go for over a year, but I am quite confident he will be traded eventually.

[ewitkows]

I don't have faith that Mark will let Doug do that. Now that Braun isn't the face of the Brewers, they need a fan favorite. I can see them offering 3yrs at close to 20 mil a season and an option year or something like that.

[bill hAll Star]

Something tells me that once Linds deal is up the brewers extend Luc and move him to 1st. What we do at C at that point I have no idea.

 

Jonathan Lucroy is never going to move to 1st by choice. He would have to be pushed there by just sucking on defense or injuries dominating him. No way the Brewers extend him just to move him to first. His bat would be of no use there.

 

Last 3 years he ops'd .881, .795 and .838. If he's roughly a .840 1B then he'd be top 10 in all of baseball and basically the same as Lind.

 

I don't think Lucroy would even dip to being as bad as Joe Mauer, due to having a little bit more power...but I don't think it makes much sense.

 

-Lind is 31 and costs $7.5 million with a team option next year. Lucroy's mega-contract will start at age 31 and might last 4+ years, so we can expect him to slowly dip from .840 in the beginning down to sub-.800 as the dollar amounts go up in a critical window where the Brewers' rebuild may be on the "rise" portion of the curve.

-Luc might learn to be a better 1B, but he's not great. If the Brewers do a rebuild right, I'd rather have 1B open for a guy that can hit the heck out of the ball but is stuck at 1B. The Twins are facing that problem right now with Mauer taking up 1B/DH for 3 more years at $20+ million and not really being good at hitting.

-For whatever it's worth, in wOBA, Lucroy would be lower than top 10.

[MrTPlush]

I don't have faith that Mark will let Doug do that. Now that Braun isn't the face of the Brewers, they need a fan favorite. I can see them offering 3yrs at close to 20 mil a season and an option year or something like that.

 

Braun is still the face of the franchise. I'm not sure signing Lucroy to a small 3 year deal to be a fan favorite is even sane. Fan favorites come and go...fans will get over it. Lucroy is no where near being the mega fan favorite Braun is/was. Braun was one of the Top 5 popular guys in MLB.

 

And for what it's worth I think Carlos Gomez is a bigger fan favorite than Lucroy. Seems Gomez has a bigger following. Either way I can't say Lucroy is head over shoulders better.

[pacopete4]

Lucroy was a fun catcher to have but I want no part of his next contract, aging catcher body, and most likely steep decline of production.

[FVBrewerFan]

If personnel decisions are made based on fan favorites, we're all in trouble. Fans move on quickly. Fielder and Hart were huge fan favorites, then Braun, now Lucroy and Gomez. Heck, even Scooter is popular. There's always a "next" and I wouldn't even think twice about any of that when trying to rebuild this team. And by the way, nobody will be a favorite if they don't rebuild the right way and have 10 seasons of lousy baseball.

[reillymcshane]

I'm not a fan of extending players such as Lucroy as they get into their 30s, but I can understand the idea (even if I disagree with it). Tossing aside arguments of marketability, face of the franchise, etc., a big reason you extend Luc is because we have no premium catching prospects in the minors at this time. So, if the club decided to extend Luc, here's how you'd do it.

 

1. Shed future salary commitments. Lohse, Parra, Cotts and A-Ram are all gone after the season, so no worries there. Trade Lind, Gomez, Garza and K-Rod.

 

Your only large salary is Braun. Segura, Peralta and (I think) Smith are arby eligible for the first time. Luc is set to make $4M in 2016 and $5.25M in 2017. The team salary would be low - probably no more than $60-65M (assuming you went with younger players to replace most of the departed guys).

 

2. Give Lucroy a three year extension. This covers his age 32-34 seasons. I'm not sure how much he'd get, but I'm going to take a stab at $17M annually (I believe that's what Martin got from Toronto - although he got five years). The contract awards Lucroy a signing bonus of $15M, then salaries of $12M annually from 2018-20. The bonus is paid out with $8M given in 2016, and $7M in 2017 - essentially giving Lucroy an annual payday of $12M for the next five years.

 

Such a deal allows the club to take advantage of the low payroll we'd be employing over the next two years as the club rebuilds with (mostly) younger players by spreading out the dollars Luc is due during this time. It gives us a catcher (which is a position we lack a good player at) who will (hopefully) still be pretty good - even if declining. And we won't be forced to pay him $20M or something crazy. Instead his pay is a reasonable $12M - much more palatable. And we are still only buying him out through age 34 - certainly getting up there, but it's not like the Yankees being stuck with a 40-year old Posada. He'd be a valuable veteran asset as he broke in young pitchers into the majors.

 

For Lucroy, it gives him a guaranteed big payday. $51M isn't anything to sneeze at. And he gets a good chunk of that money earlier than 2018. If he waits to become a FA, he may get more than $51M, but there's no guarantees. This sets him up pretty nicely - and two years earlier than anticipated.

 

Again, I'm not really a fan of extending Lucroy, but if the club sees him as essential, this is a way you could make an extension work for the club.

 

Any such deal would work only if the club goes into rebuild mode. He might not want to be part of that, but you never know.

[FVBrewerFan]

I refuse to believe there are more than 4 people on earth that say "Let's go the Brewers game tonight so we can watch Jonathan Lucroy." Baseball fans will go because we love MLB, and also realize they are rebuilding. Casual fans go to tailgate, or they have a company even, reunion, BP, etc. Sorry, I don't buy Lucroy is some sort of "face of the franchise" that can't be replaced.

 

No Catching prospects? True, then make sure you get a catcher in the deal- or in other deals for Gomez, Lind, etc.