Pitching mechanics

[DHonks]

Friday night I was watching games in a Vegas sports book and I had the joy of having Kershaw and Bumgarner often throwing on screens next to each other. With Sale, Scherzer and Jungmann also throwing today, I can't help but wonder something that's bothered me for a long time...why do organizations often tinker with the natural arm motion a kid has? I remember pondering this with Kyle Peterson and Mark Rogers as well. The three lefties I mentioned above all have some quirks in their deliveries. i know TH also alluded to this in his piece on the draft this weekend.

[jerichoholicninja]

I've often wondered about this to. Part of it is probably the "old school, macho, my way or the highway" mentality many coaches have. In Bumgarner's SI Sportman of the Year article it said that the Giants changed the way he pitched after he was drafted and the results were terrible so he told them he was going to do it his way and it worked out pretty well.

[stoutdude04]

I'm sure they think the mechanics they try is to help preserve the arm. But if the kid flames out then they never get to use the arm anyways. If you don't like the mechanics...don't draft him.

[TheCrew07]

Friday night I was watching games in a Vegas sports book and I had the joy of having Kershaw and Bumgarner often throwing on screens next to each other. With Sale, Scherzer and Jungmann also throwing today, I can't help but wonder something that's bothered me for a long time...why do organizations often tinker with the natural arm motion a kid has? I remember pondering this with Kyle Peterson and Mark Rogers as well. The three lefties I mentioned above all have some quirks in their deliveries. i know TH also alluded to this in his piece on the draft this weekend.

 

Well it's pretty easy to make a point when you take the extreme best case examples and ignore everyone else who failed along the way because of injury or ineffectiveness.

 

It's not fair to point to changed mechanics and the reason Rogers got injured, there's no proof. The Brewers didn't tinker with Mike Jones and TJ surgery ended up leading to shoulder surgery, in fact he had 3 surgeries in all. Or Nick Neugebauer for that matter, he blew out his shoulder after a flash of brilliance and was done. In fact the only 2 top of the rotation pitchers the Brewers have successfully developed in Sheets and Gallardo had relatively clean mechanics from the start. Sheets was a poor enough athlete that had he tried to pitch in a different manner he wouldn't have made it.

 

I have no interest in debating that there is in fact a proper way to throw a baseball which will increase accuracy and reduce injuries, people are going to believe whatever they want to believe, I've experience it personally and I know it to be true, and I'll try to explain it as best I can. For whatever reason in baseball has the effect of entrenching people in philosophies that may or may not be even close to true or correct. For example the claim you made that throwing from a lower arm angle reduces injuries because old time pitchers threw batting practice that way, even though they were simply using the muscles in a different manner to avoid the "soreness" they were experiencing from game action. Most kids are taught how to throw by well intentioned parents, regardless of how little the parents know or how bad their mechanics are, maybe the kid will have a strong arm and experience success in baseball, eventually end up where they are not because they were ever taught properly at any level, but because they had natural gifts and aptitude for the game.

 

I'll ask this question, why is that QBs at all level football can throw a much heavier ball, 80+ times every day 40-50 of which will be max effort, and not have arm trouble or need TJ/shoulder surgery? I think that answer is pretty simple, with the extra weight of the football when you throw it incorrectly you can actually feel the pain in your arm so there has been a ton of work done to determine and teach proper mechanics. If it hurts, human nature is to look for a different way and not repeat whatever "hurt"... but a baseball is so lightweight that one can basically throw it however they want and the effects end up being measured on a cumulative basis over time, there's not immediate physical feedback that what you are doing is hard on the arm. Oh, and before anyone says it throwing is throwing, the only difference between throwing a baseball and throwing a football is how you finish with your throwing hand, the release is different, that's all. There is no fundamental difference between throwing a football or baseball. There is however no mechanism nor is there any agreement in baseball on what proper throwing mechanics are. Great athletes can make anything work, everyone else not so much, and it takes many guys with the more screwy mechanics many 1000s more repetitions figure out how to throw enough strikes to be effective. Instead of acknowledging the harder path the player took baseball people throw the "late bloomer" or "finally realized potential" tags on a pitcher.

 

As to what TH will write, he's going to write whatever the organizational spin on a particular player or topic is, because that's all he's ever done in Milwaukee. Being a baseball writer doesn't mean he's knowledgeable enough in the wide variety of disciplines necessary to understand pitching let alone assess whether a team is on the proper track or not.

 

I seriously have a hard time believing that in 2015 people are still willing to take a "mystical" approach to pitching when the answers are rather straight forward and grounded in relatively simple geometry, physics, and bio mechanics:

 

As to what I've learned:

 

Imagine a vertical pole running through the pectoral muscle of the pitcher's throwing arm, and now imagine it creates a thin wall extending all the way to home plate. That vertical pole represents a geometric plane. Every joint in the body is a physical "lever", and the object when trying to achieve precision whether shooting a basketball, throwing a football, or throwing a baseball is to have as many levers working the same plane as possible. The farther away from that center plane your levers such as your elbow and wrist are, the more your muscles have to compensate and adjust for accuracy. That's why no one who's any good shoots a basketball with their elbow out to the side at a 45 degree angle... it will happen accidentally and the player will miss right or left, we call that "flying" the elbow, but there aren't many very good shooters who shoot with his/elbow elbow to the side. Larry Byrd is the only one that comes to mind for me, and he mastered his shot through hundreds of thousands of extra repetitions.

 

In the same way no body parts should be crossing that plane until the arm on the follow through after the release. If you aren't stepping straight down that plane at your target you introduce rotational effects into the throwing motion which the body will need to compensate for as well such as centrifugal force, not to mention balance issues which need to be compensated for and effect accuracy. Chris Archer would be an extreme example out of the wind-up, he has a very slow and deliberate balance mechanism which had to take years to master.

 

So simply put if the angles of attack and balance points are constantly changing it's very difficult for the body to repeatedly be precise in any endeavor.

 

That's just the accuracy side, I won't even go into how rotational motion bleeds velocity off the pitches, or all of the various out of sync issues in a throwing motion which can put extra stress on the various joints in the arm (commonly referred to as dragging the arm) and lead to injury.

 

There is a "correct" way to throw which pretty much anyone can master ensuring accuracy and health, or as much health as possible with a motion that isn't ergonomic, but the problem with baseball is that very few pitchers throw in that manner where as in football every QB at the collegiate level or higher has very good form. There are outliers like Farve who did everything fundamentally wrong from a throwing standpoint but could still deliver the ball on time in the window and with a certain degree of accuracy, special athletes will always be the exceptions, but any good QB coach is going to have all of his QBs throwing with nearly the same motion. The same cannot be said of pitching coaches in baseball.

[DHonks]

I should add that what also contributed to my pondering of the issue is golf. I have--by no means--a textbook swing. But at my peak it allowed me to be a +1.8 handicapper and I can still average around 300-310 yards per drive. I move my left foot in my back swing, I sometimes step through the ball on follow through, I have a weak left hand and come absolutely nowhere close to parallel. Yet it works. When looking at it on video, it's easy to note that while it's unorthodox, I accomplish nearly all of the goals of "perfect mechanics" even though my swing does not look pretty.

 

I wasn't trying to cherrypick with Sale, Bumgardner, or Kershaw. They all have uniqueness to their motion. But they all probably accomplish the goals of perfect mechanics at varying positions in their motions (with the golf analogy).

 

An interesting thing you mention about how the baseball might be too light. Yes, it's about 35% of a football. That made me think about a softball. I never once had a sore arm as a kid playing baseball. But in college intramurals I would get severe pain from throwing a softball in the biceps region. I did have to alter my motion when throwing a softball--I wish I remembered what I did.

 

Some guys are meant to get hurt. Two of the very best-pitched Brewers games I saw in person were thrown by Kyle Peterson. We'll never know if the mechanical changes caused the injuries. Stoutdude04 had a nice point...don't draft (at least early) guys with mechanics that you want to change. Also, semantics here, but didn't Mike Jones tear his UCL after he'd twice had shoulder surgery?

 

Also, in the 90s it seems like we were constantly hearing "rotator cuff." For the last 15 years it's been UCL. For a while about 10 years ago labrums were always getting injured. Lately (since Sheets) we've been hearing about torn flexor tendons. Maybe diagnoses are just more precise, or maybe this is just perception. But it seems like the types of arm injuries have been parts of trends in the last 20 or so years. If there's something to my observation (no clue how to find evidence), then what does that tell us? Are teams more careful with shoulders now than they used to be? Is strength-training helping to prevent those injuries? Who were the last major star pitchers with rotator cuff surgery? I think Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Ramon Martinez, and Alex Fernandez all effectively had their careers end from it, but in all cases they were relatively old with lots of innings. Seems like in the 90s "rotator cuff" was much more of a common injury than UCL.

[jerichoholicninja]

This is somewhat off topic by still relevant I think. I feel the love affair with velocity is leading to more injuries and for some guys, especially high school and younger, improper mechanics. Teens with professional aspirations are being trained to be pitchers anymore, they're being trained to throw hard. Their whole goal is to reach 90 MPH. Yes, I understand that typically the harder you throw the more success you have. However I feel this quest for speed is taking kids right down the path to injury. Instead of learning how to change speeds and hit spots these kids are just learning how to throw hard.

 

But what does this have to do with teams changing a player's mechanics? In any sport, if you try to do something harder/faster/quicker there's a good chance you're going to not do it the proper way. All these kids want to do is impress a radar gun and these scouts and teams don't seem to care too much about mechanics because they think they can just fix it when they get them in their organization. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

[LouisEly]

I think that if I were teaching a kid to pitch, I would try to find as much video of Nolan Ryan as I could as say, copy that exactly.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

This is somewhat off topic by still relevant I think. I feel the love affair with velocity is leading to more injuries and for some guys, especially high school and younger, improper mechanics. Teens with professional aspirations are being trained to be pitchers anymore, they're being trained to throw hard. Their whole goal is to reach 90 MPH. Yes, I understand that typically the harder you throw the more success you have. However I feel this quest for speed is taking kids right down the path to injury. Instead of learning how to change speeds and hit spots these kids are just learning how to throw hard.

 

But what does this have to do with teams changing a player's mechanics? In any sport, if you try to do something harder/faster/quicker there's a good chance you're going to not do it the proper way. All these kids want to do is impress a radar gun and these scouts and teams don't seem to care too much about mechanics because they think they can just fix it when they get them in their organization. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

 

I read by a former play (I can't remember who) that young pitchers care more about battling the rada gun than the hitter in the box.

[jerichoholicninja]

This is somewhat off topic by still relevant I think. I feel the love affair with velocity is leading to more injuries and for some guys, especially high school and younger, improper mechanics. Teens with professional aspirations are being trained to be pitchers anymore, they're being trained to throw hard. Their whole goal is to reach 90 MPH. Yes, I understand that typically the harder you throw the more success you have. However I feel this quest for speed is taking kids right down the path to injury. Instead of learning how to change speeds and hit spots these kids are just learning how to throw hard.

 

But what does this have to do with teams changing a player's mechanics? In any sport, if you try to do something harder/faster/quicker there's a good chance you're going to not do it the proper way. All these kids want to do is impress a radar gun and these scouts and teams don't seem to care too much about mechanics because they think they can just fix it when they get them in their organization. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

 

I read by a former play (I can't remember who) that young pitchers care more about battling the rada gun than the hitter in the box.

 

Can you blame them? That's pretty much all scouts care about. And height. You have to be over 6'2" to have any scout give a crap about you.

[dlk9s]

Hopefully one day all that will change and if it does, the high school version of me will smile.

:

I dominated in high school. Nobody could hit me. But I was 6'1", skinny (maybe 150 lbs?), and couldn't crack 90 MPH. My brother swears that, just by how it felt when we practiced together, I was probably hitting upper-80's, but I'd be surprised by that. I probably lived in the low-to-mid 80's with my fastball and maybe, MAYBE could crank it up a couple extra MPH if I really wanted to.

 

But hey, barely ever gave up runs and it was rare for anyone to make solid contact off of me. I also kept my mouth shut and didn't promote myself. If a college or pro scout ever looked at me, I never knew it.

[FVBrewerFan]

If a college or pro scout ever looked at me, I never knew it.

 

Yea, I looked at you, you needed better secondary stuff.

[yfinn6]

Hopefully one day all that will change and if it does, the high school version of me will smile.

:

I dominated in high school. Nobody could hit me. But I was 6'1", skinny (maybe 150 lbs?), and couldn't crack 90 MPH. My brother swears that, just by how it felt when we practiced together, I was probably hitting upper-80's, but I'd be surprised by that. I probably lived in the low-to-mid 80's with my fastball and maybe, MAYBE could crank it up a couple extra MPH if I really wanted to.

 

But hey, barely ever gave up runs and it was rare for anyone to make solid contact off of me. I also kept my mouth shut and didn't promote myself. If a college or pro scout ever looked at me, I never knew it.

 

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s529/Jill412/Gifs/uncle_rico-114019_zpso224qh7m.gif

[FVBrewerFan]

Don't the Brewers still use that program where they take video of the delivery and then software compares that to optimum delivery or something?

 

I don't think we know enough yet about bio-mechanics to unilaterally say there is right way and wrong way to throw. Yes, I would bet some pitchers delivery is flat out "wrong" and will lead to injury. But with that said, there could be others that don't fit the profile and are just fine. (I'm thinking of different arm slot angles, including the side-armers out there.)

 

Then you get into innings per game, per season, etc. I've always believed pitches per inning is the most important, because you're using those same muscles many times in a short period of time. But that's just my own hunch.

 

Finally, I think kids are throwing curves, splitters, etc... pitches that are tough on an arm that is still developing. The "powers that be" used to be real strict on that, and the coaches cooperated. Now everything is so competitive at a young age, all of that is out of the window.

[nate82]

If you are trying to change a pitchers throwing motion by the time they are either graduating high school or coming in from college you are fighting a losing battle. You might win here and there but you are going to lose more than just letting the player keep their mechanics.

 

I just don't believe a team should be tinkering with a player at all especially when it comes to pitching.

[logan82]

I think the Brewers let their minor leaguers do what they have been doing for their first year and if it doesn't work out they start tweaking.

[LouisEly]

I think the Brewers let their minor leaguers do what they have been doing for their first year and if it doesn't work out they start tweaking.

You're half right. They let them do what they've been doing, but they have an eye on making adjustments their second year. They focus on getting the guys adjusted to playing every day and how to prepare/practice for a season of that their first year.

[dlk9s]

If a college or pro scout ever looked at me, I never knew it.

 

Yea, I looked at you, you needed better secondary stuff.

My secondary stuff was my primary stuff.

[dlk9s]

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s529/Jill412/Gifs/uncle_rico-114019_zpso224qh7m.gif

http://i.imgur.com/CwhXr.gif