What former Brewers are doing in 2015, and why it's time for Melvin to go

[Invader3K]

I believe it was Dean that brought in Jack Z but that was about it. Dean Taylor was our worst major league GM. Everyone of his moves were insane other than the wickman for sexson trade. I'm very glad he is gone as the GM. Maybe as a farm guy but he was not a major league caliber GM.

 

Not sure Taylor was our worst. Sal Bando was pretty horrible as GM.

[reillymcshane]

I believe it was Dean that brought in Jack Z but that was about it. Dean Taylor was our worst major league GM. Everyone of his moves were insane other than the wickman for sexson trade. I'm very glad he is gone as the GM. Maybe as a farm guy but he was not a major league caliber GM.

 

Not sure Taylor was our worst. Sal Bando was pretty horrible as GM.

Bando was brutal. Absolutely brutal. Some of his decisions were mind boggling.

 

He picked Antone Williamson with the 4th pick of the draft. I remember reading one GM or scouting director type said he had Williamson ranked as a 3rd or 4th rounder. Why'd Sal want him so bad? Williamson was a 3B from Arizona State. And Bando was what? A 3B from ASU. For some reason Sal became enamored with the guy and insisted on taking him.

[homer]

I believe it was Dean that brought in Jack Z but that was about it. Dean Taylor was our worst major league GM. Everyone of his moves were insane other than the wickman for sexson trade. I'm very glad he is gone as the GM. Maybe as a farm guy but he was not a major league caliber GM.

 

Not sure Taylor was our worst. Sal Bando was pretty horrible as GM.

Bando was brutal. Absolutely brutal. Some of his decisions were mind boggling.

 

He picked Antone Williamson with the 4th pick of the draft. I remember reading one GM or scouting director type said he had Williamson ranked as a 3rd or 4th rounder. Why'd Sal want him so bad? Williamson was a 3B from Arizona State. And Bando was what? A 3B from ASU. For some reason Sal became enamored with the guy and insisted on taking him.

 

 

Bando was awful but I wonder how much of that was Selig tightening the purse strings on him.

[WV Brew]

I find myself in the strange position of defending these GM's and I think Bando, while not a great GM, does get a bit of a bad rap. Who exactly did he draft?

 

'92 Ken Felder Bad pick but Chad McConnell, Ron Villone, Jonathan Lowe, Richard Greene, etc. were picked just after him who were largely no better. Apparently, there were a lot of dumb GM's that year.

 

'93 Kelly Wunsch They could have had Marc Valdes or Jamey Wright who were the remaining picks of the first round that year. Wright would have been a better pick but Wunsch did have a long Major League career.

 

'94 Antone Williamson Following picks were: Josh Booty, McKay Christensen and Doug Million

 

'95 Geoff Jenkins I hope nobody has a problem with this one.

 

'96 Chad Green Next pick Mark Kotsay (I wonder what Brewerfan reaction would be to that?). He did miss on the next two picks Eric Chavez and Adam Eaton.

 

'97 Kyle Peterson Well Kyle ended up with a lot of injuries. Next picks that year: Brandon Larson, Jason Dellaero before Lance Berkman was taken.

 

'98 J. M. Gold Big arm like many of you want drafted. But was injured like Peterson. Jeff Weaver was the next pick but he would not have signed with the Brewers anyway.

 

'99 Ben Sheets

 

So Bando's drafting, while not great, was reasonable for the most part. No team hits on every pick.

[WV Brew]

Cardinals 1st round draft choices '92-'99

 

Sean Lowe

Alan Benes

Bret Wagner

Matt Morris

Chris Haas

Braden Looper

Adam Kennedy

J. D. Drew

Ben Diggins

 

This is probably better than Bando's drafts but not by much.

[Nottso]

I can't help but wonder if some of Taylor's moves at the big league level weren't influenced by pressure from above to "win now;" Especially since those moves went directly against what he professed to envision and what he was doing down on the farm. I also can't help but focus in on the bottom line:

 

1. Brewers were terrible and had a terrible farm.

 

2. Taylor was hired.

 

3. Brewers built a strong farm, in very short order, which many later attributed to Jack Z, who was hired by Taylor.

 

4. Taylor was fired, Melvin was hired.

 

5. Brewers farm went back in the tank and Jack Z went to Seattle (or possibly the other way around).

 

6. Taylor went to KC.

 

7. Brewers are currently a tire fire... in a dumpster... on a train wreck. There may even be orphans aboard.

 

8. Seattle isn't much better.

 

9. KC is just flat-out ROLLING and appears to be well positioned to continue rolling.

 

Maybe I'm over simplifying things and Lord knows I don't want to have a big argument over it, as most of you are way better equipped than I and some of you have raised it to nearly an art form. It's just that when I break it down as above, the only conclusion I can come to is that Taylor should have been given more time; and left alone if he was being pressured from above to "win now."

[monty57]

the only conclusion I can come to is that Taylor should have been given more time; and left alone if he was being pressured from above to "win now."

 

I probably have my timing off here, but there was also the desire to "put the most attractive package together for a prospective buyer" thing going on around that time. Taylor took over in 2000, when to no one's surprise the Brewers had some good offensive players (Sexson, Jenkins, Burnitz, Hernandez, Loretta), but absolutely no pitching. I think he was correct in the belief that they needed to build the farm, but was done in when he traded Burnitz for Glendon Rusch and signed Hammonds to replace Burnitz. Melvin seems to have endless rope when it comes to making moves, but these moves got Taylor fired.

 

Melvin inherited a poor MLB team, but a much stronger farm, and he was given the "prize trading chip" of Sexson, and the blessing that he was allowed to have some bad seasons until the stars (acquired starting under Taylor) made it to the majors. Attanasio bought the team during this stage, when we were at the bottom and ready to rise.

 

I don't know if holding on to Taylor was the answer or not. He seemed to at least have a direction, which I think has been lacking in the current regime, but he may not have been very good at judging MLB talent and has been successful with KC by helping them find minor league talent (just a possibility, I have no idea). I do think that had he not been a short chapter in the Brewers' history, they would not have had the success they have had over the past decade, and I think the dynamic duo we have making decisions at the top right now are not going to make the next decade very successful. I think that at this time either Melvin has to go, being replaced by someone Attanasio completely trusts to make all the decisions, or Attanasio has to go, which isn't very likely. Since the probable scenario seems to be Melvin remaining as some sort of "go between" for Attanasio and the next GM, the next GM will be nothing more than a puppet being led around by Attanasio/Melvin, and I don't think that will go well at all.

[Thurston Fluff]

Bando was awful but I wonder how much of that was Selig tightening the purse strings on him.

 

My biggest problem with him is he seemed content to use it as an excuse instead of figuring out a way to deal with it.

[yfinn6]

Wrong thread. Whoops.

[Boomer5]

the only conclusion I can come to is that Taylor should have been given more time; and left alone if he was being pressured from above to "win now."

 

I probably have my timing off here, but there was also the desire to "put the most attractive package together for a prospective buyer" thing going on around that time. Taylor took over in 2000, when to no one's surprise the Brewers had some good offensive players (Sexson, Jenkins, Burnitz, Hernandez, Loretta), but absolutely no pitching. I think he was correct in the belief that they needed to build the farm, but was done in when he traded Burnitz for Glendon Rusch and signed Hammonds to replace Burnitz. Melvin seems to have endless rope when it comes to making moves, but these moves got Taylor fired.

 

Melvin inherited a poor MLB team, but a much stronger farm, and he was given the "prize trading chip" of Sexson, and the blessing that he was allowed to have some bad seasons until the stars (acquired starting under Taylor) made it to the majors. Attanasio bought the team during this stage, when we were at the bottom and ready to rise.

 

I don't know if holding on to Taylor was the answer or not. He seemed to at least have a direction, which I think has been lacking in the current regime, but he may not have been very good at judging MLB talent and has been successful with KC by helping them find minor league talent (just a possibility, I have no idea). I do think that had he not been a short chapter in the Brewers' history, they would not have had the success they have had over the past decade, and I think the dynamic duo we have making decisions at the top right now are not going to make the next decade very successful. I think that at this time either Melvin has to go, being replaced by someone Attanasio completely trusts to make all the decisions, or Attanasio has to go, which isn't very likely. Since the probable scenario seems to be Melvin remaining as some sort of "go between" for Attanasio and the next GM, the next GM will be nothing more than a puppet being led around by Attanasio/Melvin, and I don't think that will go well at all.

 

Dean Taylor signed Jose Hernandez and gave up a 2nd round pick to do it. He then signed Jeffry Hammonds, who mades quite a number of appearances in the worst contract ever thread. He was a brutally bad major league GM, though I was impressed he brought in Jack Z. Look up his trades and you can see he had assets that he turned into nothing except for the Sexson move.

 

Melvin, on the other hand does OK in trades but his handling of the farm system is self explanatory.

[monty57]

Dean Taylor signed Jose Hernandez and gave up a 2nd round pick to do it.

 

As a Brewer, Hernandez had lines of:

 

2000 .315 OBP / .372 SLG / .687 OPS

2001 .300 OBP / .443 SLG / .743 OPS

2002 .356 OBP / .478 SLG / . 834 OPS

 

Not bad for a Shortstop (played 3B in 2000, SS in '01 & '02), but he struck out a lot, and is probably best remembered for being benched at the end of the season just so he didn't break the strikeout record.

 

But I agree with the premise of your post Boomer, Taylor didn't seem great at acquiring MLB talent. His legacy to the Brewers was beginning the transformation of the minor league system, which brought us the talent that took us to the playoffs. Without his brief tenure as GM, I believe that we would still be looking for our first playoff appearance since 1982.

[RobertR]

The problem with Taylor was more of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The team scuttled all of its OBP strengths when he arrived, got hosed on the trades of Cirillo, Vina, and Valentin, kept Burnitz for some unknown reason until his value was done, signed Hammonds disastrously, and his choices of managers were terrible. He showed no ability to find major league pitching. Oh, and signing Eric Young? Trading for Glendon Rusch (who predictably got knocked around by the right-handed hitting NL Central)? The payroll increased with the coming of Miller Park but the big league results plummeted. Taylor was pretty much anti-sabremetrics right around the time when progressive teams were really taking advantage and the Brewers missed a real opportunity.

 

Was he better than Bando? Worse? Who cares. Taylor, imo, would never have succeeded as a GM as he didn't have a vision for where the game was evolving. Then there was the fact that his right-hand man was scumbag extraordinaire David Wilder.

 

Frankly, I buried him after his opening press conference when he uttered "I'm not a talent evaluator".

[EauClaireNWL]

At the end of the day, there are always a lot of what if's...? and what could have beens..?, but that's all water under the bridge at this point. Melvin needs to be let got by the end of the season. His contract is up and should not be renewed. 13 seasons is a lifetime in baseball years and you've gotten two playoff appearances and one division series win to show for it. The only way this ship is going to get righted is by getting a GM and scouting staff who won't trade away half the farm for a one to two year window of contention every five years as well as an owner who has the balls to make those moves needed in the front office. I don't think Doug was a complete disaster given the 10+ seasons prior to his arrival, but it's time for this team to have some fresh eyes on the farm and roster cause there is no easy overnight fix for what the current state of the team is in.

[The stache]

At the end of the day, there are always a lot of what if's...? and what could have beens..?, but that's all water under the bridge at this point. Melvin needs to be let got by the end of the season. His contract is up and should not be renewed. 13 seasons is a lifetime in baseball years and you've gotten two playoff appearances and one division series win to show for it. The only way this ship is going to get righted is by getting a GM and scouting staff who won't trade away half the farm for a one to two year window of contention every five years as well as an owner who has the balls to make those moves needed in the front office. I don't think Doug was a complete disaster given the 10+ seasons prior to his arrival, but it's time for this team to have some fresh eyes on the farm and roster cause there is no easy overnight fix for what the current state of the team is in.

 

I almost completely agree. The only thing I would say is that what a prior regime did really should be of little or no consequence. You play to win the game. And winning the World Series should be the only measuring stick a team has. The Brewers, under Melvin's tenure, have come close to appearing in a World Series once in thirteen seasons. Those other twelve years were basically a complete wash (I see our 2008 playoff appearance the same way I see our neighbor's ribbon when they place 5th place in a race. They showed up, but really had no chance to win, and should not be rewarded, or complimented).

 

Taken as a whole, Melvin has accomplished absolutely nothing. Now, was that nothing a little "prettier" than the nothing we got from the prior general manager + staff? Yes. We got our hopes up a little more this time around. We got over the .500 line, too (woo hoo, we weren't completely inept!). But it's still nothing. You can dump a gallon of Chanel No 5 on a pile of dog poo--then it becomes good smelling dog poo. The choice is up to Attanasio now. Does he want this team to continue failing, or does he want a start fresh, and give this franchise (and the millions of fans who love it) some signs of hope?

[logan82]

I think the direction of the franchise has been pretty good for over a year now. They do need to move a couple MLB assets, and it would have been nice to see Lohse or Garza moved in the offseason. Other than the, they have drafted some nice upside talent, traded Estrada and Gallardo for more useful assets. I still think we came out ahead in those trades. Things are moving in the right direction but we have a long way to go because things were run so poorly before last year.

[The stache]

I think the direction of the franchise has been pretty good for over a year now. They do need to move a couple MLB assets, and it would have been nice to see Lohse or Garza moved in the offseason. Other than the, they have drafted some nice upside talent, traded Estrada and Gallardo for more useful assets. I still think we came out ahead in those trades. Things are moving in the right direction but we have a long way to go because things were run so poorly before last year.

 

I would temper that enthusiasm a bit. Melvin made a terrible decision in bringing Broxton in. That shows me he hasn't learned at all from his past mistakes.

 

And these young guys they have drafted with "nice upside"...I am hopeful, like you, Logan82, that they pan out. But let's see them against some real competition before we start getting excited, and pointing to them as a change for the better.

[monty57]

And these young guys they have drafted with "nice upside"...I am hopeful, like you, Logan82, that they pan out. But let's see them against some real competition before we start getting excited, and pointing to them as a change for the better.

 

I like that they are going for upside, but I agree that the enthusiasm has to be tempered. Medeiros was essentially a late-1st rounder/early 2nd rounder, who they picked in the middle of the 1st round so they could pay him under slot value to be able to afford their later signings. In other words, they traded the ability to sign the "best player available" in order to be able to sign three "late 1st/early 2nd round talent" guys.

 

I'm happy they went for high-upside guys, and am happy they were able to sign them, when the pundits didn't think they would, but they are all "late 1st round/early 2nd round" guys who are just out of high school, so there is a high flameout rate there. That they were all immediately planted near the top of our "top prospect lists" really just shows that our "top prospect" list is still relatively weak. Hopefully they live up to their potential and help to change that.

 

I do like that they traded away a veteran (Gallardo) for prospects in order to open a spot for another prospect (Nelson). That they traded for a guy (Sardinas) who would allow them to trade another veteran (Segura) could be telling. If they hold on to Segura and they essentially traded their #1 starter for an MLB ready utility IF and middle reliever to help them "compete" this year, then I'm not as happy with the trade.

[logan82]

Of course we need to temper our enthusiasm. That is true of all prospects. I was speaking about the change in drafting philosophy and the direction of the organization in general which, in my opinion, has been going the right way since the Garza signing. Melvin making the right moves is what this thread is about. Whether or not those guys are good is another discussion. We have not picked high in the draft fr a few years so anybody we draft is going to be questionable.

[dlk9s]

I enjoyed this thread the last 46 times it was started.

[monty57]

Of course we need to temper our enthusiasm. That is true of all prospects. I was speaking about the change in drafting philosophy and the direction of the organization in general which, in my opinion, has been going the right way since the Garza signing. Melvin making the right moves is what this thread is about. Whether or not those guys are good is another discussion. We have not picked high in the draft fr a few years so anybody we draft is going to be questionable.

 

Melvin's contract was up and he had said he was going to retire after 2012. Coincidentally, he went "all in" in the offseason prior to 2011, trading the farm for two guys whose contracts were up after the 2012 season. He wanted to go out on top. Of course, he accepted an extension, and he recently stated that (paraphrasing from memory) the team had a window in 2011-2012 and has needed a rebuild, and the longer you wait, the longer the rebuild will need to be.

 

Just my opinion, but I think Melvin has realized for a long time that we needed to change direction, and it's been a bit of a tug of war between him and Attanasio as to what needs to be done. Year after year, Melvin hints that we aren't going to make any big moves, only to be followed up by Attanasio signing a 30-something free agent. I agree with you that Melvin has seemed to be doing some things to try to help "the future." I disagree that Garza was a good signing. I put a chart up in another thread that we've all seen before. Once a player gets into his 30's, production is likely to fall, falling significantly after they're around 31-33. From the get-go, this contract (like Ramirez, Lohse, Wolf and all the other 30-something free agents) was very likely to have a lot of "dead money" in it, and the team is already trying to get someone to take the contract off their hands. They need to stop this trend of signing 30-something free agents to multi-year deals for eight figures a year. Free agency for the Brewers needs to be for complementary players, not for "name" guys who are supposed to play big roles but are signed to contracts that take them well past their prime. We've signed a number of these deals under Attanasio, and none of them has ended well. Most have ended with the fanbase wishing the guy was cut, and yet for some reason those same fans get excited when the next guy is signed.

[logan82]

I don't mind the Garza signing because we didn't give up a pick or prospects. I don't expect him to be good for the entire contract but he is talent that could have been moved for more assets. I really didn't expect him to be this bad so fast. I thought we would get at least 2 good years out of him. Flipping Garza or Ramirez for more talent would have been a brilliant move.

 

I don't expect them to drastically cut payroll any year so there is always going to be a certain amount of money spent. If we are going younger, which we should, that leaves more money to spend on free agents. Melvin just has to do a better job moving those guys for more talent.

[adambr2]

Of course we need to temper our enthusiasm. That is true of all prospects. I was speaking about the change in drafting philosophy and the direction of the organization in general which, in my opinion, has been going the right way since the Garza signing. Melvin making the right moves is what this thread is about. Whether or not those guys are good is another discussion. We have not picked high in the draft fr a few years so anybody we draft is going to be questionable.

 

Melvin's contract was up and he had said he was going to retire after 2012. Coincidentally, he went "all in" in the offseason prior to 2011, trading the farm for two guys whose contracts were up after the 2012 season. He wanted to go out on top. Of course, he accepted an extension, and he recently stated that (paraphrasing from memory) the team had a window in 2011-2012 and has needed a rebuild, and the longer you wait, the longer the rebuild will need to be.

 

Just my opinion, but I think Melvin has realized for a long time that we needed to change direction, and it's been a bit of a tug of war between him and Attanasio as to what needs to be done. Year after year, Melvin hints that we aren't going to make any big moves, only to be followed up by Attanasio signing a 30-something free agent. I agree with you that Melvin has seemed to be doing some things to try to help "the future." I disagree that Garza was a good signing. I put a chart up in another thread that we've all seen before. Once a player gets into his 30's, production is likely to fall, falling significantly after they're around 31-33. From the get-go, this contract (like Ramirez, Lohse, Wolf and all the other 30-something free agents) was very likely to have a lot of "dead money" in it, and the team is already trying to get someone to take the contract off their hands. They need to stop this trend of signing 30-something free agents to multi-year deals for eight figures a year. Free agency for the Brewers needs to be for complementary players, not for "name" guys who are supposed to play big roles but are signed to contracts that take them well past their prime. We've signed a number of these deals under Attanasio, and none of them has ended well. Most have ended with the fanbase wishing the guy was cut, and yet for some reason those same fans get excited when the next guy is signed.

 

Well put. The trouble with these signings is that we have to essentially concede that the last year of it is going to be dead money. So we essentially paid 3/48 for Suppan and 2/30 for Wolf. Given that Lohse is carrying an ERA well north of 6 into June, he seems to be the latest to follow the trend and I have little doubt that Garza will end up in the same boat. You can argue all you want that Wolf was effective in his first 2 years and Lohse was as well, but when you're basically taking a year off the back end of each of these big pitching FA deals and writing it off as waste, that's not an efficient way of spending our limited FA money at all.

 

These are short-sighted moves. 12.5M a year for Garza looks fine if you assume that he can perform at his career norms well into his 30s. In the real world, it rarely happens. Yet 4 times in the last decade we have either assumed that our FA pitcher would remain effective for his entire contract, or we have just been willing to accept the probability that we will have to eat the last year in order to plug a hole in the rotation right now. Neither possibility reflects highly on Melvin or Mark A or their long term planning.

[bill hAll Star]

I don't mind the contract figures, to be honest. I hated the Suppan deal when it happened for other reasons, but any FA contract is known to be a dud in its final year. I'm much more disappointed in the inability to bring up any sort of impact from the minors in this time and when to sell high on what they have. #TradeLucroyNow

[SomewhereInTime]

I understand a lot of the anti-Melvin sentiment and I do think he needs to be out by the end of the season. However, I really disagree with the effort to trivialize the last 13 seasons and the positive things this team accomplished under Doug Melvin. The all or nothing attitude of you either win it all or you're nothing, 2nd=3rd=30th etc. needs to die. There are lesser accomplishments that make a season worthwhile even if the team doesn't win a World Series.

 

From 2003-2014 (12 seasons) the Brewers have finished with a .500 or better record 6 times, they've finished with a winning record 5 times. They've made 2 post-season appearances, 1 division title, they've advanced as far as the NLCS with one post-season series win out of three. They have a 6-9 post-season record.

 

In the previous 33 seasons the Brewers finished .500 or better 11 times, they finished with a winning record 10 times. They made 2 post-season appearances, 2 division titles, they advances as far as the World Series with one post-season series win out of three. They had a 8-9 post-season record.

 

This last 12 year stretch under Melvin has been more successful than the past 33 seasons even with the massive rebuild Melvin had oversee to start his tenure in Milwaukee. I would argue that it's not even fair to count 2003-2004 given the state of the roster when he took over.

 

Then to somehow decide to not count 2008 because they were only a Wild Card team is ridiculous. Wild Card teams go to the WS all the time. This isn't like being a #8 seed in the NBA playoffs. Anyone who makes the postseason in baseball has a chance, even now in the era of two WC teams per league. That was a good 90 win team, something we'd be happy with any season.

 

This team is in bad shape right now at the major league level, there's no question, but they have good talent at the low levels of the minors and they have some talented assets at the major league level that they can either build around or trade to acquire major prospects.

[logan82]

From 2003-2014 (12 seasons) the Brewers have finished with a .500 or better record 6 times, they've finished with a winning record 5 times. They've made 2 post-season appearances, 1 division title, they've advanced as far as the NLCS with one post-season series win out of three. They have a 6-9 post-season record.

When you put it like that, that kind of sucks.