What former Brewers are doing in 2015, and why it's time for Melvin to go

[The stache]

While we suffer through the worst record in Major League Baseball, I thought it would be fun to look at what some other recent Brewers that we let go are doing. (bold denotes leads league in category)

 

Prince Fielder: .368 AVG, 70 hits, 10 home runs, 38 RBI, 1.008 OPS

Nelson Cruz: .341 AVG, 18 HR, 38 RBI, .687 SLG, 1.082 OPS, 205 OPS +, 123 total bases

Michael Brantley: .313 AVG, 17 doubles, 4 home runs, 28 RBI, 7/7 stolen bases, .901 OPS

Lorenzo Cain: .293 AVG, 32 runs scored, 19 RBI, 8/10 SB. 2.8 WAR (was leading the AL in WAR as of two days ago).

Nori Aoki: .322 AVG, 21 runs, 11/15 SB, .813 OPS

Jake Odorizzi: 3-5, 2.31 ERA, 0.965 WHIP, 66 1/3 IP, 53 K, 0.3 HR/9 IP, 2.1 WAR

Alcides Escobar: .281 AVG, 20 runs scored

 

So those are the guys we've traded away. There are a few others who aren't doing so well this year, Brett Lawrie has been dinged up again (stop me if you've heard that one). Yovanni Gallardo hasn't been great. But for the most part, those recent ex-Brewers are flourishing. Big time. And, while it kills me to say it, I'm glad to see them thriving. I just wish they were doing it for the Brewers.

 

Well, we let those great players go. So, who has Doug Melvin brought in?

 

Adam Lind: .261 AVG, 7 HR, 19 RBI, .819 OPS. 0.7 WAR.

Jonathan Broxton: 1-1, 7.27 ERA

Kyle Lohse: 3-5, 5.80 ERA

Matt Garza: 2-7, 6.00 ERA

 

We couldn't keep Prince Fielder, who has been a .300 hitter since leaving Milwaukee (and yes, he did miss most of last year). But I think we all agree that year would have been forgivable based on everything else he's done. We didn't offer him enough money. We offered a lot, but for a player of his caliber, we didn't offer enough.

 

Yet, Broxton, Lohse and Garza. What are they making?

 

Broxton: $9 million for 2015

Lohse: $11 million for 2015

Garza: $12.5 million

 

Hmm, we're paying $32.5 million this year for three guys who have combined for this line:

 

6-13, 6.08 ERA, 0 saves, 133.1 IP, 90 ER, 24 home runs, 115 K, 46 BB.

 

6 wins, 13 losses, an ERA over 6, and 24 home runs surrendered in 133 innings pitched. That's $32 and a half million dollars well spent. Now, I'm sure that the Reds are paying part of Broxton's salary, at least, I hope.

 

Lind is the latest in a long line of replacements at first. He was great in April, hitting .333 with 4 home runs and 13 RBI. Since then? He's hit .187 with 3 home runs, and 6 RBI in May. He has a .360 SLG and a .659 OPS this month. There have been some other players. Gerardo Parra has played some great defense, and has hit .274 with a .742 OPS since coming to Milwaukee. About what we expected.

 

(deep breath)

 

I know that the Brewers hadn't even sniffed the playoffs in like a million years, and that was old. It was tiresome being the punchline of every baseball trivia joke. Yes, we squeaked into the playoffs because we rented CC Sabathia for a half season. Remember that briefest of appearances in 2008 while we watch Michael Brantley continue to make All Star teams year after year for the Indians. The last year and a half, he's been sensational. His averages per 162 games played since the start of the 2014 season? .325 AVG, 96 runs scored, 206 hits, 52 doubles, 20 home runs, 104 RBI, 25 stolen bases, 62 BB, 56 K, .387 OBP, .506 SLG, .893 OPS. And an 8.2 WAR. He's stolen 30 bases in 31 tries over that span. And Greinke (and Marcum) got us a few games from the World Series. Great memory. But if anybody can sit here and tell me that those memories, as great as they are, were worth where we are now, with the outlook we have, I'd say you're crazy. Cain is a star. He's never going to blow up the stat sheet, but he does so many things well. And he plays incredible defense. His WAR the last two years (well, almost year and a half) is 7.9. He had a 2.7 dWAR last year. This year, he's already up to a 1.5 dWAR. Brantley and Cain, in a year and a half, have combined for a 16.1 WAR.

 

The problem is that we've been such a utter failure as a franchise for so long, any appearance in the playoffs suffices. Any positive memories as a franchise (not individual ones like Prince hitting 50, or Brauny winning the MVP) are so few and far between, when they happen, we treat them like we just won the lottery. We won 90 games in 2008, and the only reason we made the playoffs is that Sabathia put up a 5.2 WAR in a half season. He was 11-2 with a 1.65 ERA while here. He was the best player we had, and he was only here a half the year. Then we proceeded to lose 3-1 in the playoffs to the Phillies, and Sabathia was terrible in his start because we'd driven him into the ground during the regular season. Tell me, was that brief appearance worth losing Brantley? No way. If you say "yes", you're kidding yourself. Thank God the other guys we sent turned out to be such big nothings. If LaPorta, the key part of the trade, had developed into half the player people thought he was going to be.....yikes. Brantley was the player to be named later.

 

I've see people praising the moves Melvin made, that his trades have been generally good. When you give up a lot to borrow a great player for a half season, or almost a year and a half, the short term success you have might make it seem like an even trade. But it's not. Selling out a team's future for short term gratification is not smart business sense, especially with how terrible the Brewer high draft picks have been between 2008 and 2013. There's nobody on the horizon that's going to get us out of this funk. The impact players, the ones I'm hopeful will actually become something, are two to three years out. Orlando Arcia might be ready next year, but as good as I think he can be, he's going to have to grow into his talent. He's not going to be a star from the get go, at least I don't think so. Defensively, yes, but he will have to develop with the bat. He's doing real well at AA, but the Majors are another animal.

 

If the Brewers are going to clean house, and as we get closer and closer to mid season, I fear we are, we do NOT...I repeat do NOT need Doug Melvin to be here. Better to start completely over. Get a new GM. Get new scouts. Rebuild this franchise the way a small market team has to be built to be successful. We need pitching. We need players that can get on base in a variety of ways, because when our big bats go into a funk, we can't manufacture runs otherwise. We make far too many mistakes on the basepaths. We have mental lapses that should never happen at the top level.

 

Defense. Pitching. Fundamentals. Draft a strong core of young players. Develop them. Augment with the occasional veteran. But stick to your plan. Don't trade away half of your top prospects for a one off chance at the playoffs.

 

My fear, everybody...and it is one that is getting bigger and bigger in the rear view mirror, is that we're going to finish the season with the worst record in baseball. We're going to trade away the guys we do have that have real talent--Braun, Gomez and Lucroy, and we're not going to get equal value for them. And, the guys we do get, will be more of the same. Big time hitters without a natural defensive position. Because it's criminal what we've done to Ryan Braun. He will never be a great defender. But he was a pretty good defensive left fielder. He worked hard, and made himself at least Major League average. We moved him from from shortstop, where he played in college, to third base. Then, we moved him to left field. Then, we moved him to right field. Why did we move him to right? Because Khris Davis can only play left field. His arm is so weak, we can't put him anywhere else. So, a fairly good left fielder gets replaced by a below average left fielder, and in turn, we get a below average right fielder. No matter how good Carlos Gomez is, he can't cover the entire outfield by himself.

 

Somebody please....talk me down. Please tell me that I'm overreacting, and that despite all this talent we've given away, we're going to turn this organization around. Mark Attanasio won't let this continue to go on much longer, will he?

 

I need some reassurance in the worst way. I've tried to remain positive all year long, but the last week or two, it's just been harder. We've lost seven of our last eight. The new manager hasn't helped us at all. So, this has to spur our owner into action. It just has to.

 

Cry. I love this team. I've been loyal to the Brewers for 37 years. But my patience is wearing thin.

[Boomer5]

You need to include Yost on this list too. Give him credit, he has been great.

 

I dont have a huge problem with the CC/ZG rentals. It was what it was as they say. We got a lot, and we gave up a lot. We knew that going into both but we had developed no #1's since a rickety Sheets, and the price on those guys is high.

 

I DO have a huge problem with our drafting and ability to develop talent. If this years farm system success stories included more than Arcia, Id feel a lot better about the direction. But since it doesn't, you cant feel good about anything Milwaukee Brewer right now.

[torts]

it sure would have been nice to have kept only the good players and traded/let go all of the bad players.

[3and2Fastball]

Fielder wasn't going to stick around

 

Choosing Hart over Cruz was a huge organizational blunder

[The stache]

Hi Boomer5,

 

I do feel encouraged about some of the guys we've taken in the last few years. I think Jake Gatewood and Monte Harrison could be big bats for us. Clint Coulter, too. Hell, if two of those became key players in the next generation of Brewers, I'd be thrilled. I'm hoping for all three. I feel good knowing that we have not one, but two really good shortstop prospects in the system with Arcia and Lara. I even like Yadiel Rivera's upside, too. While I think Arcia will hit, I wasn't sold on Rivera's bat. But thus far he's over .300 at AAA. I don't need power from the shortstop position. If you can get it, great. But I want a shortstop that makes that are of the infield a graveyard for opposing hitters, and a table setter for our big bats. We're not putting all our eggs in the Jean Segura basket, though, so that's a big plus. I still think Jean will be a really good player for us for a long time (I don't want him traded). But if he doesn't develop more consistency, we have options. Gatewood and Lara will probably man the infield corners. Our really young pitchers are encouraging, too. The problem with all these guys is that they're so young. I hate to say it, but baring a miracle, I think we're going to have a couple of lean years now. It's not going to get any better soon. But, I will look to the future, and cheer on the individual accomplishments of a few players. Wouldn't it be a kick in the teeth if Braun were traded right before passing Robin on the all-time home run list?

 

I guess my way of looking at things is that Melvin has been here a long time now. He's had plenty of time to put everything the way he wanted it. He's got his guys in place. He's had a lot of drafts. And this is where we are with him. And while the memories of two playoff seasons are great, the other eleven years of disappointment cannot be brushed under the carpet.

 

Two good years in thirteen, ad few other average seasons where there was no post season ball...and take our current position=it's time for him to go.

[torts]

lets not forget the path Cruz took to get to the Majors... he was traded two times prior to Milwaukee's trade

 

http://disciplesofuecker.com/the-history-of-nelson-cruz

[Boomer5]

Hard was an All Star. Yes including Cruz in the Lee trade was unnecessary.

 

Want blunders? Take a look at the 2009 draft. Go to "other players to make the majors".

 

We had 3 of the top 47 picks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Major_League_Baseball_Draft

[Bombers]

Fielder wasn't going to stick around

 

Choosing Hart over Cruz was a huge organizational blunder

We had Hardy / Weeks / Hart and decided to keep all 3 who were all pretty similar (hit homeruns but struck out a lot.) We should have traded at least one of them when we realized none of our pitching was panning out. Early in their time you could have traded any one of those for a good pitching prospect. But we didn't, we held on to them and got nothing for Hart/Weeks and lucked out with getting Gomez for Hardy. (One of Doug's better trades considering we had Escobar in the wings and it put him in a position to start.) Although we would then in turn trade Escobar and watch everyone's favorite brewers man SS (and 1B) for years to come. Yay for Yuni B!

[Boomer5]

Hi Boomer5,

 

I do feel encouraged about some of the guys we've taken in the last few years. I think Jake Gatewood and Monte Harrison could be big bats for us. Clint Coulter, too. Hell, if two of those became key players in the next generation of Brewers, I'd be thrilled. I'm hoping for all three. I feel good knowing that we have not one, but two really good shortstop prospects in the system with Arcia and Lara. I even like Yadiel Rivera's upside, too. While I think Arcia will hit, I wasn't sold on Rivera's bat. But thus far he's over .300 at AAA. I don't need power from the shortstop position. If you can get it, great. But I want a shortstop that makes that are of the infield a graveyard for opposing hitters, and a table setter for our big bats. We're not putting all our eggs in the Jean Segura basket, though, so that's a big plus. I still think Jean will be a really good player for us for a long time (I don't want him traded). But if he doesn't develop more consistency, we have options. Gatewood and Lara will probably man the infield corners. Our really young pitchers are encouraging, too. The problem with all these guys is that they're so young. I hate to say it, but baring a miracle, I think we're going to have a couple of lean years now. It's not going to get any better soon. But, I will look to the future, and cheer on the individual accomplishments of a few players. Wouldn't it be a kick in the teeth if Braun were traded right before passing Robin on the all-time home run list?

 

I guess my way of looking at things is that Melvin has been here a long time now. He's had plenty of time to put everything the way he wanted it. He's got his guys in place. He's had a lot of drafts. And this is where we are with him. And while the memories of two playoff seasons are great, the other eleven years of disappointment cannot be brushed under the carpet.

 

Two good years in thirteen, ad few other average seasons where there was no post season ball...and take our current position=it's time for him to go.

 

We can pick out some good minor league stories, but every team can as well. I do love Arcia. He looks spectacular and as soon as we can start the clock safely next year, Im ready to put him at SS and build around that.

 

Coulter has corner OF potential, but where? Davis and Braun are there now and cant play anywhere else. I, as you know, think its time to move Braun, and I am down on him the man. However, he has value and a team like Mets NEED him, warts and all.

 

I love what Sneed has done. I absolutely see him in Milwaukee. He just looks like a Brewer starting pitcher. Of course the two 2nd round picks last year and Lara have potential, but thats all it is now. Im not seeing the progress in Taylor, Wang, Devin, Kodi, and Roache. The 2011 draft has been about as bad as we could have done with those picks.

 

I posted the 2009 draft. It is absolutely brutal and just that draft alone is a fireable action.

 

As for DM, he is pretty much done anyhow due to age. We need to completely revamp our farm system from top to bottom. I hate just about everything we have done from the drafts to Colorado, to missing out on Rodon, etc, etc, etc. It would cost one Broxton to make our minor league system world class by hiring the right people.

 

DMs trades have been OK in general. He seems to find some gems on the lower tier trades and gets about what we need in the bigger ones. I would love to have Brantley, Orzo, and Cain now but I get why he did it. The Lee trade was stupid because clearly he was told to only bring back MLB talent. But trading FOR a guy like Mensch? Why? Why include Cruz when the answer was keep Nix and Ill keep Cruz.

 

My hope is Mark A sees what the Cubs and Astros have done. Trade Braun, Gomez + Lind/Lohse and you will accomplish what those teams did in 4 years in a weekend. Draft Aiken + the first pick in 2016, hold an auction for Lucroy and we will have a top 5 farm system over night.

[Patrick425]

Draft a strong core of young players. Develop them. Augment with the occasional veteran. But stick to your plan. Don't trade away half of your top prospects for a one off chance at the playoffs.

 

Are we seriously going to keep rehashing this argument over and over again in various threads.

 

The Brewers did this in the early/mid 2000's (drafted and developed a core of young players). They had Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, etc. However they had no pitching. By the time they waited for their system to develop pitching, they would have lost other components to free agency. Also, not every prospect that is drafted is gold, many don't pan out (even the "can't miss" guys). You say "augment" the system with the occasional Veteran. How should they have "augmented" their pitching staffs in 2008 and 2011 without trading away prospects? They are not a team that is going to compete in the FA market for pitching arms like Grienke and Sabathia. Name a pitcher, other than Gallardo, in the Brewers system between 2006 and the present that was going to help them get to the playoffs the way Grienke and Sabathia did? To me, under your plan, it seems like would be competitive every year...but just always miss the playoffs because we are missing key components because we are unwilling to make the necessary trades.

 

Yes, all those former Brewers you mention on one team sound like a great team, but if you think the Brewers have the payroll flexibility to keep all of those guys together you are fooling yourself. If I'm calculating correctly, the combined 2015 salary of just those players is $54 million and growing and again, just one pitcher in the bunch and 4 outfielders (where do Braun and Gomez play??). Also, we didn't offer Fielder enough?? We should have offered the $24Mil per year that he's currently making? Funny how over the last two seasons everyone was thankful how we dodged a bullet with Fielder and now that he's having a good year, we should have offered him more. Ah, the power of hindsight.

 

I'm all for rebuilding for tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes, you have to go for it. You can't endlessly build for tomorrow without the willingness to trade of those "tomorrow" pieces for today.

[torts]

Draft a strong core of young players. Develop them. Augment with the occasional veteran. But stick to your plan. Don't trade away half of your top prospects for a one off chance at the playoffs.

 

Are we seriously going to keep rehashing this argument over and over again in various threads.

 

The Brewers did this in the early/mid 2000's (drafted and developed a core of young players). They had Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, etc. However they had no pitching. By the time they waited for their system to develop pitching, they would have lost other components to free agency. Also, not every prospect that is drafted is gold, many don't pan out (even the "can't miss" guys). You say "augment" the system with the occasional Veteran. How should they have "augmented" their pitching staffs in 2008 and 2011 without trading away prospects? They are not a team that is going to compete in the FA market for pitching arms like Grienke and Sabathia. Name a pitcher, other than Gallardo, in the Brewers system between 2006 and the present that was going to help them get to the playoffs the way Grienke and Sabathia did? To me, under your plan, it seems like would be competitive every year...but just always miss the playoffs because we are missing key components because we are unwilling to make the necessary trades.

 

Yes, all those former Brewers you mention on one team sound like a great team, but if you think the Brewers have the payroll flexibility to keep all of those guys together you are fooling yourself. If I'm calculating correctly, the combined 2015 salary of just those players is $54 million and growing and again, just one pitcher in the bunch and 4 outfielders (where do Braun and Gomez play??). Also, we didn't offer Fielder enough?? We should have offered the $24Mil per year that he's currently making? Funny how over the last two seasons everyone was thankful how we dodged a bullet with Fielder and now that he's having a good year, we should have offered him more. Ah, the power of hindsight.

 

I'm all for rebuilding for tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes, you have to go for it. You can't endlessly build for tomorrow without the willingness to trade of those "tomorrow" pieces for today.

 

my thoughts exactly, great post!

[tmwiese55]

I think Patrick pretty much nailed my view as well.

[monty57]

Want to feel a little worse Stache? Since we knew we would not be able to hold on to Fielder, imagine if instead of holding onto him and trading for Greinke and Marcum, we had traded Fielder and Hart for a treasure trove of young prospects (not the "two MLB-ready pitchers" Melvin was asking, which was never a reality) and held onto the guys we traded away. Or, better yet, since Lawrie was apparently traded because he and Melvin didn't get along, imagine if we had traded him for a similarly talented pitching prospect.

 

Yes, we would likely have missed the playoffs in 2011, but we would have likely had a lot more success since then. We'd have the group you mentioned, plus what we received for Fielder and Hart, and we quite possibly wouldn't have had to continually buy 30-something talent in free agency, allowing us the money to extend the good young players we held onto. Too many All-Star caliber outfielders? That's a pretty good problem to have, since you could trade away one or two of them for positions of need.

 

In a fairly recent interview, Melvin hinted that he knew the "window" was 2011-2012 once he made the moves he made. If we were going to do what we did, we should have went full-scale Marlins after getting knocked out of the playoffs in 2011, and sold everything of value.

 

I'm all for rebuilding for tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes, you have to go for it.

 

No you don't

 

You can't endlessly build for tomorrow without the willingness to trade of those "tomorrow" pieces for today.

 

Yes you can.

 

See, I can reply without giving an actual answer as well. However, to put an answer to that, please name me any successful business that has traded away all (or most) of their R&D to increase sales today. To my knowledge, there are none, because that move would eventually bankrupt the business. Immediate gratification feels nice, but it's fleeting. With a perpetual entity, tomorrow will always arrive, so resources always have to go towards making sure that tomorrow is not a torturous wasteland.

 

Selling out a team's future for short term gratification is not smart business sense

 

I've said that same thing many times. I sometimes wonder why I invest so much emotional "capital" into a team run this way, when I would never invest money in any other business run this way... it's doomed for failure! Stache, you blame Melvin, and I wish I could sum it up that simply. In that case, Melvin could easily be fired and the problem would be solved. Unfortunately, the "philosophy" comes from the top, which means Mr. "baseball's simple, you just plug the names into a spreadsheet and they perform" Attanasio is the guy running things like a rudderless ship. He likes putting "name" players on the field so fans will buy tickets, and feels the best use for prospects is as trade chips. Until he decides there needs to be better direction in the organization from top-to-bottom, and that direction has to come from his office, the franchise will not maintain any success.

 

He bought the team at the perfect time: The team had built a new stadium, and Taylor had brought in Jack Z and started building the farm, while gutting the MLB payroll. This allowed for a rapidly increasing MLB payroll at the time young, cheap All Star talent was coming up from the farm. Attanasio is good at building up revenue streams, so he was able to get higher highs in payroll, but other than riding the natural wave that was bound to occur from the talent bustling forth from the farm, Attanasio hasn't done anything baseball-wise that has really helped this franchise. He's taken a franchise that (for lack of a better current comparison) was similar to today's Cubs, and has turned it back into a laughing stock. What's the most laughable is that Brewer fans are ecstatic about making the playoffs. Not winning the World Series... just making the playoffs, and that simple act has justified to many that somehow things have been run correctly.

[3and2Fastball]

What's the most laughable is that Brewer fans are ecstatic about making the playoffs. Not winning the World Series... just making the playoffs, and that simple act has justified to many that somehow things have been run correctly.

 

Yep, and with a 2nd Wild-Card team, building a roster that can play .500 ball most years and every once in awhile have everything come into place that will allow for playoff consideration, complete with trading away prospects at the Trade Deadline actually makes sense, to Mark A, from a business standpoint. Keep in mind that the value of the Brewers has tripled since he bought the team

 

Our best hope is not that he hires a new GM, our best hope is that he sells the team to someone who can hire the right front office people and then not meddle one iota with player personnel issues

[JackNicholson1974]

I cant get too worked up about this:

 

Prince Fielder: .368 AVG, 70 hits, 10 home runs, 38 RBI, 1.008 OPS: Missed all of last year due to injury, before that was declining. Contact generally isnt a good one.

Nelson Cruz: .341 AVG, 18 HR, 38 RBI, .687 SLG, 1.082 OPS, 205 OPS +, 123 total bases. If we had kept him, then I supppose we either dont play Hart or Braun in the late 2000s. Plus he has already gone through TEX, BAL and now on to Seattle.

Michael Brantley: .313 AVG, 17 doubles, 4 home runs, 28 RBI, 7/7 stolen bases, .901 OPS. Great player. Would love to have him in LF right now. Would not have made playoffs in 2008 without Sabathia. May not have traded for Gomez.

Lorenzo Cain: .293 AVG, 32 runs scored, 19 RBI, 8/10 SB. 2.8 WAR (was leading the AL in WAR as of two days ago). Great Player. Would love to have him in LF right now. Would not have made playoffs in 2011 without Grienke. Between him and Brantley would not have acquired Gomez.

Nori Aoki: .322 AVG, 21 runs, 11/15 SB, .813 OPS.

Jake Odorizzi: 3-5, 2.31 ERA, 0.965 WHIP, 66 1/3 IP, 53 K, 0.3 HR/9 IP, 2.1 WAR. Chalk it up to having to give to get. Loved that playoff run.

Alcides Escobar: .281 AVG, 20 runs scored. 2011 playoff run + Jean Segura. I will take that trade every day of the week.

 

If we keep those players we give up playoffs in 2008 and 2011 and we also dont have Gomez or Segura. I love Melvin, I think it is time for him to move on, but these roster moves are not the reason.

[JackNicholson1974]

Hard was an All Star. Yes including Cruz in the Lee trade was unnecessary.

 

Want blunders? Take a look at the 2009 draft. Go to "other players to make the majors".

 

We had 3 of the top 47 picks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Major_League_Baseball_Draft

 

I think 2011 was way worse. Many on this forum, including myself wanted the Brewers to take Sonny Gray with one of their two picks. To see that they could have conceivably gone Jose Fernandez at 12 and Sonny Gray at 15 is troublesome to say the least.

[3and2Fastball]

I think 2011 was way worse. Many on this forum, including myself wanted the Brewers to take Sonny Gray with one of their two picks. To see that they could have conceivably gone Jose Fernandez at 12 and Sonny Gray at 15 is troublesome to say the least.

 

And they passed on Madison Bumgarner in 2007 to instead select Matt LaPorta!

[Patrick425]

Since we knew we would not be able to hold on to Fielder, imagine if instead of holding onto him and trading for Greinke and Marcum, we had traded Fielder and Hart for a treasure trove of young prospects (not the "two MLB-ready pitchers" Melvin was asking, which was never a reality) and held onto the guys we traded away. Or, better yet, since Lawrie was apparently traded because he and Melvin didn't get along, imagine if we had traded him for a similarly talented pitching prospect.

 

Yes, we would likely have missed the playoffs in 2011, but we would have likely had a lot more success since then.

 

Or...the prospects we traded for may not have panned out and we would still be looking for our first playoff birth in 33 years. Prospects are unpredictable. Cy Young caliber pitcher generally are not.

 

Too many All-Star caliber outfielders? That's a pretty good problem to have, since you could trade away one or two of them for positions of need.

 

Wait...isn't that what they did?...but you are still complaining about it.

 

 

I'm all for rebuilding for tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes, you have to go for it.

 

No you don't

 

You can't endlessly build for tomorrow without the willingness to trade of those "tomorrow" pieces for today.

 

Yes you can.

 

See, I can reply without giving an actual answer as well.

 

I'm pretty sure I gave my answer in the beginning of the post you referenced here.

 

Hindsight is fun. Brantley was a 7th round draft pick and the Brewers 24th ranked prospect at the time they traded him according to Baseball America. Nelson Cruz was a 26 year old outfielder that had been bounced around to different organizations and had an inconsistent minor league record. Cain was a 17th round pick and a fringe prospect...and we probably would have never gone after Aoki if we did not trade these guys. Now, we are shaking our head at how the Brewers could have ever let these guys go? Man, I'd hate to be your broker..."Hey..why didn't you tell me to buy Apple stock 10 years ago!?!"

[tmwiese55]

So some have the stance that after all the painful years, we successfully built a team that in 2011 had a shot to go for it before losing Fielder should have traded him and other players and not went for the title? I'm sorry, I just will never get behind that. I mean, why have a team then, you do most things right and you get right to the point and then pull the plug. I just think people should realize we're small market and we're going to have to pick our windows when to go for it. I view all those trades as worth it and don't think it would've changed anything about how we look now. Yes, trading Fielder, hart, weeks, braun would have made the system stronger and we could be better for the next couple years, but then we have to trade everyone again, what's the point.

 

Brantley was traded in 08 and finally became good in what 2014, 6 years later, he wasn't regarded as a good prospect anywhere and don't think that one should be held against melvin, especially when he was 100% right to trade super prospect Laporta in the same trade.

 

I also think a major lesson from the way that team was built is that we need to target team building from homegrown pitchers first, rather than offense first like that was done. Hopefully they focus this way going forward.

 

Great point by whoever said MA bought at the right time and hasn't helped anything other than maximizing revenue. All the prospects that made them good for those years were already in place, he just had to ride it out.

[Boomer5]

Hard was an All Star. Yes including Cruz in the Lee trade was unnecessary.

 

Want blunders? Take a look at the 2009 draft. Go to "other players to make the majors".

 

We had 3 of the top 47 picks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Major_League_Baseball_Draft

 

I think 2011 was way worse. Many on this forum, including myself wanted the Brewers to take Sonny Gray with one of their two picks. To see that they could have conceivably gone Jose Fernandez at 12 and Sonny Gray at 15 is troublesome to say the least.

 

Everyone had Sonny Gray penciled in to us, me included (I had us with Guerrieri as well in full disclosure). I think Fernandez was public that if he wasn't drafted by Miami he wasn't going to sign though.

[monty57]

Man, I'd hate to be your broker

 

I am my "broker" (although I'd never call myself a "broker") and that's why my clients didn't get "all in" on things like the dot com and real estate bubbles, and why they have more money today then they had back then. For the long haul (which is all that really matters), systems increase the odds for success, "all in" increases the odds for failure.

 

Wait...isn't that what they did?...but you are still complaining about it.

 

No, they traded away the young, cheap guys who would later become all-stars before they had any real trade value.

 

So some have the stance that after all the painful years, we successfully built a team that in 2011 had a shot to go for it before losing Fielder should have traded him and other players and not went for the title?

 

I have the stance that we threw away the potential to be good for a long time in order to be good for one season. I understand your opinion, but after all these years people still can't seem to grasp the basics of where I'm coming from. Patrick's stock market reference was a good one. I know lots of people who put everything into the dot com and real estate bubbles. As obvious as some things seem, there are always people who get genuinely mad at those who point out that the path they are on may feel good for a fleeting moment, but is destined for long-term failure. Then, after the "get rich quick" dust settles and the failure naturally occurs, they can't seem to understand what happened.

 

I'm not trying to get emotions running hot. I'm just saying that where we are now was pretty much destined to happen due to the moves the team made a few years ago. It didn't have to be that way, things could have been done differently. I wish they had been done differently, as I never think throwing away the future for one year is a good idea. Obviously others feel differently.

[Brewer Fever]

Geebus, can we just rename this the "How many different ways can I word this to say the same thing" thread?

 

BTW, I'd like to see Melvin given his retirement papers too but enough already.

[RobertR]

 

 

No, they traded away the young, cheap guys who would later become all-stars before they had any real trade value.

 

Wait, they traded away guys that didn't have any real trade value for Sabathia and Grienke? Melvin must have Jedi mind powers. Or, Melvin traded away something of real value to get something of real value. I'm okay with trading future value for present value if you're making a run at the playoffs. And the Brewers were.

 

Now, I agree that the state of the farm system is on Melvin. The Cardinals aren't drafting early and their farm system blows away the Brewers while they have been able to compete at the same time. The Brewers have blown draft after draft / failed to develop talent. At some point, the buck has to stop at Melvin.

 

We always say that the Brewers had a limited window. They took a shot while the window was open and got 2 playoff appearances out of it, once advancing to the NLCS. Now the window is obviously closed and they have to rebuild. Nothing wrong with that. Frankly, I'd say that the struggles with the big league club this year are the least of the reasons to replace Melvin.

 

But, the sorry state of the farm system, even taking account the trades to compete, is why the axe should fall. There are teams that find talent late in the first round and in subsequent rounds. The Brewers aren't one of those teams and there's no reason to expect it to change without radical action at this point.

[WV Brew]

Melvin has certainly made his share of mistakes. Let's not forget though what a difficult job this is. Only Harry Dalton has a better winning percentage as GM than Doug.

 

Marvin Milkes 40%

Frank Lane 42%

Jim Wilson 46%

Jim Baumer 41%

Harry Dalton 52%

Sal Bando 48%

Dean Taylor 42%

Doug Melvin 49%

 

It's hard to win as a Brewers' GM. Melvin has probably been better than most and it's hardly a sure thing that a replacement would be better.

[tmwiese55]

I understand your point Monty and I by no means think it's unreasonable. I just feel like it wasn't necessarily for one season as we had a shot all years from 08 until the Braun suspension, which helps shift me into my side of the argument. The other reason is when do you 'become good' as you say we would. If we trade all those guys we wouldn't have ever been good yet and if the prospects we get pan out (see the missed prospects thread) this stance would just see us trade them all away again.

 

My take is the state of the farm is on Melvin and should be held responsible but I really don't think the trades were the killers at all, it was the horrific drafting/development.