Firing the manager is the problem not the answer.

[monty57]

Good post. If the guy you have in place isn't providing that clear direction you desire you can't just leave him in the job forever for the sake of stability though either. I think they're hoping Counsell is their guy for the really long term (Bochy, Scosia, Matheny, etc.) type and that's why they went with him so young. I think they view him as being able to instill that Cardinals style smart approach to the game, it will now just take some time to turn over the players to be that style. Maybe it would be better to pull someone from the Cards but you know what I mean. We'll see I guess, but I think that's what they're hoping for in Counsell. Also, I think they expect a couple lean years coming up so it's good time to let him learn on the job. Maybe they'll sign Gomez and Lucroy and bring in another old 3B next year though and my guess on what they're trying to do will end up being way off.

 

I think you're right in their beliefs, but really that's just saying "we're going to keep throwing you ducks and you can coach them into being swans."

 

The Brewers have been extremely streaky for an extended period. I think that has more to do with Melvin's propensity for drafting/signing big power, no discipline guys than it has to do with the team giving up. If that continues, and a consistent philosophy (thanks TheCrew for the word that was eluding me in my posts) from the top down is not instilled, then Counsell can try to coach "his style" of play until he's blue in the face, but the guy who has swung at bad pitches his whole life is still going to swing at bad pitches, and a pitcher with no control will still have no control.

 

In order to instill that "Cardinals style" or whatever other style they want to instill, it has to start much earlier than the MLB level. They have to draft the type players that will fit the team's style, have coaches at all levels of their system instilling that style into the prospects, and finally have a MLB coach who will continue that style on the major league field. Prospects/players who show that they won't fit into that style have to be dealt, regardless of talent. If they happen to be "Shelby Miller/Top 10 prospect" talented, then that just means you'll get a lot of talent back. It goes against what most teams would do, but that's probably a big reason most teams have "windows of success," while a few well-run franchises seem to have a lot more up years than down.

 

On a side note, it's funny that a previous poster mentioned that Attanasio/Melvin's scapegoat for the team "giving up" last year was Mark Reynolds, who was signed by none other than the Cardinals.

[JohnBriggs12]

Reports have been rampant that under Roenicke the clubhouse was lax. The Brewers don't change managers all that often. Counsell is burdened by having Roenicke's staff around in particular Narron and Kranitz. Both of those guys need to go.

 

That being said, I still can't get over his resting Braun when he's in the midst of one of his hottest stretches in years.

[JohnBriggs12]

He went to KC and did some of the same frustrating things there that he did here. Yet they stuck with him. Not only did he take them to the World Series he is also has them in first place this season. That after losing their version of Greinke.

KC's season was pretty much all because its bullpen was insane. It played EXACTLY into Yost's managerial style: rigid, unchanging player roles. He had his 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, and closer. Never changed. The thing was, those three guys were unhittable last season, so his strategy worked. He fell into a World Series.

 

On top of that, they shouldn't have even gotten past Wild Card game. The A's pulled a massive choke job.

 

Yost isn't a good manager.

 

Absolutely right. The 3 guys in the pen were historically good, probably the best ever by a threesome in the pen in history of the game. They made the Royals, Yost-proof last year.

[Thurston Fluff]

Our team (players) lack courage, because they are never asked to show it or use it or develop it. The simplest way forward is to grade players on ATTITUDE above all. I mean good attitude. We have too many players with a bad attitude. Sadly, our management have shown that is not a high quality required in the players they sign. So our Brewer-beat will just go on and on and on.

 

One of the first things Yost did was to bench a guy (can't remember his name but he was the first guy busted for PEDs) for Podsednik. His reason stated publicly was he saw him busting his butt shagging flyballs and such while the other guy was loafing around. We had that but fired him anyway. Then when the next guy stated how he wanted things done he was run out of town after the team essentially quit on him. That is pretty much the problem right there.

[dlk9s]

I think the problem did not go away when the 'player manager' went away. The Brewers are a laid back, semi-retirement home - and a half way house for young under achievers. This aura infects any player that comes in. The players are very ME FIRST - and DONT PUSH ME - and DONT ANNOY ME with trivial things like performance and accountability.

 

...

 

Our team (players) lack courage, because they are never asked to show it or use it or develop it. The simplest way forward is to grade players on ATTITUDE above all. I mean good attitude. We have too many players with a bad attitude. Sadly, our management have shown that is not a high quality required in the players they sign. So our Brewer-beat will just go on and on and on.

 

Interesting theory. I you don't mind, please show your work.

[monty57]

He went to KC and did some of the same frustrating things there that he did here. Yet they stuck with him. Not only did he take them to the World Series he is also has them in first place this season. That after losing their version of Greinke.

KC's season was pretty much all because its bullpen was insane. It played EXACTLY into Yost's managerial style: rigid, unchanging player roles. He had his 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, and closer. Never changed. The thing was, those three guys were unhittable last season, so his strategy worked. He fell into a World Series.

 

On top of that, they shouldn't have even gotten past Wild Card game. The A's pulled a massive choke job.

 

Yost isn't a good manager.

 

Absolutely right. The 3 guys in the pen were historically good, probably the best ever by a threesome in the pen in history of the game. They made the Royals, Yost-proof last year.

 

I guess there are two ways to look at this thread. I'm looking at it as more of a theoretical study of "is firing the manager generally an answer, or does it showcase that there are bigger problems with management." Others seem to be looking at it as whether or not Yost and Roenicke were good managers who should have been fired.

[tmwiese55]

haha, that's the way most of these things go. Rehash the same old hindsight arguments.

 

To monty's post, yes I totally get what you mean. Pointless to put that manager in place if you're going to keep the same players and draft/develop the same way. I think I mentioned earlier but I think this is an early step in turning that way around and they realize they need to go that direction going forward. Probably going to see massive roster overhaul coming in the next 6 months and hopefully they go more of the Cardinals route. Or I could be totally wrong and they'll do next to nothing and sign some old 3B like Uribe and think they can win again next year. I don't think so though.

[TheCrew07]

haha, that's the way most of these things go. Rehash the same old hindsight arguments.

 

I'm not sure how long you've been around the board but there are people posting in this thread that have been beating the same drum for years, these are not hindsight arguments though it's convenient to frame them as such to dismiss what's being said.

[tmwiese55]

All I meant was to go back old things that have happened and argue about them over and over, and now everyone has the benefit of hindsight and knowing what happened. Just meant that most discussions that start about one topic ends up arguing about some old trade, signing, etc..

[Thurston Fluff]

He went to KC and did some of the same frustrating things there that he did here. Yet they stuck with him. Not only did he take them to the World Series he is also has them in first place this season. That after losing their version of Greinke.

KC's season was pretty much all because its bullpen was insane. It played EXACTLY into Yost's managerial style: rigid, unchanging player roles. He had his 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, and closer. Never changed. The thing was, those three guys were unhittable last season, so his strategy worked. He fell into a World Series.

 

On top of that, they shouldn't have even gotten past Wild Card game. The A's pulled a massive choke job.

 

Yost isn't a good manager.

 

When you start with the answer you will inevitably find anything that justifies said answer. Yes they did have a great bullpen. What made them great? Obviously talent is the major factor. But there must be something that allowed them to excel when other equally talented relievers fail. According to you that couldn't possibly be due to the manager having determined roles and sticking to them. The consistency of knowing their roles and adapting to them cannot possibly have anything to do with it. Why? Because you already determined their manager sucks and predetermined roles are a bad thing. What I think is, it doesn't matter a hill of beans if there is or isn't predetermined roles. I think it matters that the team adjusts to whatever system the manager has in place. The longer the manger is there the more stable the environment that players have to learn to adjust to. Not to mention the longer one guy is there the more players who do well with that particular style of play can be accumulated. Those things in and of themselves lead to better results.

[SoupTown]

"please show your work."

 

Exhibit A (or Z, depending on order) is the team 'giving up' on RRR. What the heck is that all about. The 'team' gives up because they are not handled the right way by a manager. These are not T-ballers. They are supposed to be professionals. They are to play 100% all the time no matter what face is on the top step of the dugout. And we hear this is not the first time. (another exhibit)

 

I have been following this team since 1970. I dont mind a team that loses, as long as they are ALL IN ALWAYS.

 

Who was the guy with the 'untuckem'. The Cards complained. I would say through the media, "we have a player and guys respecting a dad of player.. now shut up, or wear extra padding in your backsides next time we face you." The way Gomez is treated by the Braves, I would hit two Braves a game, until they figure out how to treat us with respect. When Prince did the bowling ball thing at home... why oh why did MLB journos complain. It is all fine and good fun. And it is not disrespectful to the other team.

 

If the Brewers from top to bottom were tight knit and TEAM first, NONE of these problems would happen, and the other teams would respect us. Currently, we garner no respect. And we brought that on ourselves.

 

 

Edited by homer on 6/1 - please see inbox.

[Brewtraveler]

I cannot stand all the manager talk every year. All they do is manage the egos and make a few decisions a game. If you have great players you will do just fine over the course of the long season. Even when a team wins, there are people who will believe it's because of the players and still complain about the manager. Then when they lose its all the managers fault. It's just a nonstop complain machine.

 

So now that they fired RRR where are they complaining about CC? Apparently he was the reason we collapsed last year and were so bad this year. Never mind everyone could not hit or pitch at at the end of last year or to begin this year. But now we made a change and its the same stuff. So what do you move on to now? Keep complaining or move on to the players?

 

Being in a small market we have to do everything right in order to compete. Draft well, sign the right free agents, and keep the right young players. We are competing with teams that can give Braun contracts to multiple players and can be wrong about a guy. If Braun sucks we are screwed. Which was last year. So when the brewers hire the next manager, there will be the same group out there that will say they do this and that wrong regardless of winning or losing. It could be Joe Torre and they would claim that they know more and will say the things he did wrong. That is what always gets me. People claim in the game threads what a manager does right and wrong and actually believes that they know better. Its absolutely hilarious. They make small moves that have limited effect on the game. Great players will win you alot of games.

 

End of rant. Sorry about that.

[502 to Right]

The problem is Doug Melvin.

[danzig6767]

I cannot stand all the manager talk every year. All they do is manage the egos and make a few decisions a game. If you have great players you will do just fine over the course of the long season. Even when a team wins, there are people who will believe it's because of the players and still complain about the manager. Then when they lose its all the managers fault. It's just a nonstop complain machine.

No doubt. I was no big Roenicke fan, but the team won 95 games and was two games away from the World Series with him as the manager. Two years later the team last year was unexpectedly in first place most of the year, then that was followed by an epic collapse. Now he's gone and the team is as bad as it was with Roenicke, which is no surprise given the pitching staff blows.

 

Many Kansas City fans had pitchforks out wanting to can Yost and had Lester not gagged away an 8th inning lead, Yost is likely canned. Instead, his players rallied, KC makes the World Series, Yost gets an extension, and today they sit with a 29-18 record.

 

In 2011 before the Cardinals made a furious rally in September to make the playoffs and then a title, aided by Atlanta collapsing, i remember reading a Cardinals forum. One post after another by fans saying LaRussa's time should be over. That he no longer knew what he was doing. Fast forward to a year or two later, i read their forum after the Axford trade. One post after another saying that Matheny was not only a terrible manager, there was a long thread questioning if Matheny might be the worst manager in baseball history. I'm not making that up either.

 

Go to nearly any baseball forum and there will be many to the vast majority of fans ripping on the manager, even pretty often when a team is winning, saying that team is winning in spite of the idiot manager. Hell, i've been on this forum a long time and can't think of a single Brewers manager who wasn't constantly ripped on, regardless of how much it may have been deserved. Lopes was the worst.

 

Overall, good players make managers look smart and bad players make them look dumb. Their importance in the record of a team in a given season is so overrated by lots of baseball fans, except in rare exceptions where say most players on a team either hate their manager and/or have tuned him out.

[brewmann04]

I think most of the people here did not think the answer for the crew was to fire RR.The issue is much deeper and now becomes the time to correct this matter. they will need to make some trades and retool this team.

[SoupTown]

Can I give another exhibit of the Brewer players' 'me first' attitude. Kintzler. Last year he complained he was not used in high leverage situations. I applauded that boldness. I thought his fire was for the team 'give me the ball for the team'. Yet now when he has been pitching very poorly, and he is DFAed, he suddenly pipes in his knee is hurt. So we have yet ANOTHER example of a player putting himself before the team. If his knee was hurt then he should have said so 1 day, 3, days, 5 days ago. But his actions show he cares not for the team, but for himself, firstly.

 

If you keep your eyes open, you will see countless examples of this over these lean years. The entire ethos of the organisation is a bunch of people (from top to bottom) trying to cover their bums - and keep their special MLB 'cool' jobs.

[homer]

Can I give another exhibit of the Brewer players' 'me first' attitude. Kintzler. Last year he complained he was not used in high leverage situations. I applauded that boldness. I thought his fire was for the team 'give me the ball for the team'. Yet now when he has been pitching very poorly, and he is DFAed, he suddenly pipes in his knee is hurt. So we have yet ANOTHER example of a player putting himself before the team. If his knee was hurt then he should have said so 1 day, 3, days, 5 days ago. But his actions show he cares not for the team, but for himself, firstly.

 

If you keep your eyes open, you will see countless examples of this over these lean years. The entire ethos of the organisation is a bunch of people (from top to bottom) trying to cover their bums - and keep their special MLB 'cool' jobs.

 

 

I'm sure you can find countless examples of this kind of thing on any team that struggles for an extended period of time.

[502 to Right]

25 games have now been managed by RR and CC this year. The records:

 

RR: 7-18

CC: 9-16

 

I sure am glad they made the switch. Where would they be without Counsell?

[brewmann04]

Like i said no body expected to think changing managers was going to help. The players here are the issue and that something that falls on the FO.

[jerichoholicninja]

25 games have now been managed by RR and CC this year. The records:

 

RR: 7-18

CC: 9-16

 

I sure am glad they made the switch. Where would they be without Counsell?

 

Still watching some old fart stand in the dugout with a proverbial constant shoulder shrug as to why using the same players the same way is getting the same results.

[adambr2]

25 games have now been managed by RR and CC this year. The records:

 

RR: 7-18

CC: 9-16

 

I sure am glad they made the switch. Where would they be without Counsell?

 

Does it really matter? Its not like they would have turned it around and be a .500 team right now if they had kept RR.

 

Part of the nature of the business. You can't just continue with a disaster without holding people accountable.

[brewmann04]

Earl Weaver or Sparky Anderson in their prime could not turn around this team

[brewmann04]

I'd be curious to see if the Brewers look to fire another coach before making a trade,either Kranitz or Coles.

[502 to Right]

25 games have now been managed by RR and CC this year. The records:

 

RR: 7-18

CC: 9-16

 

I sure am glad they made the switch. Where would they be without Counsell?

 

Does it really matter? Its not like they would have turned it around and be a .500 team right now if they had kept RR.

 

Part of the nature of the business. You can't just continue with a disaster without holding people accountable.

 

I'm not a fan of making moves because "something needs to be done." Like a few years ago when they fired the bullpen coach because the relief corps sucked. That's bush league and it's a sign of a poorly run organization.

 

I don't think RR was the problem.

 

And if people need to be held accountable, when is Doug Melvin going to held accountable?

[adambr2]

25 games have now been managed by RR and CC this year. The records:

 

RR: 7-18

CC: 9-16

 

I sure am glad they made the switch. Where would they be without Counsell?

 

Does it really matter? Its not like they would have turned it around and be a .500 team right now if they had kept RR.

 

Part of the nature of the business. You can't just continue with a disaster without holding people accountable.

 

I'm not a fan of making moves because "something needs to be done." Like a few years ago when they fired the bullpen coach because the relief corps sucked. That's bush league and it's a sign of a poorly run organization.

 

I don't think RR was the problem.

 

And if people need to be held accountable, when is Doug Melvin going to held accountable?

 

Hopefully soon. I agree Melvin needs to be held accountable as well, but that's going to require some serious self-reflection on the part of Mark A as I think a lot of Melvin's moves are a reflection of Mark's ideas and philisophies.

 

RR wasn't the 'problem ', but he was part of it. How often is the manager the sole problem? Was Yost really the problem in '08? Generally, if the team doesn't perform, at some point, the manager is held responsible. Fair or not, that's the way it goes in every organization. If that's bush league, every franchise is guilty of it at some point. Even if it changes nothing immediately, you do have to be held accountable to your fanbase. I realize you can't make moves in the interest of appeasing the masses, but you can't just sit back and do nothing forever, or you're going to give the impression of apathy and that's going to turn people away.

 

RR was given 4+ years all the while responsible for the worst month in franchise history, the worst collapse in franchise history, and the worst start in franchise history. He was very fortunate to have his option picked up for next year and therefore secure himself a nice severeance after the massive collapse last year.

 

They were plenty patient with him. It was probably his time to go after 2014 and not in May of this year.