Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[homer]

I get this feeling Counsell is going to play a lot of small ball because that's all he could really do as a hitter.

[bill hAll Star]

I get this feeling Counsell is going to play a lot of small ball because that's all he could really do as a hitter.

 

If so (especially with this roster) I'll want him fired within 5 days.

[gregmag]

Why on Earth wouldn't you fire the manager in this circumstance? Of course it doesn't fix deeper problems, but it's the best way to to a quick reset and get a clearer look at what we have and don't have.

[reillymcshane]

Counsel it is. To me, it's a clean slate. I don't know what he'll be like as a manager until I see him, so I'm just hoping he's the right guy at this time.

 

Counsel seems like a smart guy. He seems respected in the baseball world. He made a long career out of a modicum of talent. If all those things make him a good manager - then great.

 

I just hope that the team sets up a plan to succeed. Whether that's Melvin as GM or someone else, I just don't want these band aids applied year after year. I hope the team is willing to reboot itself, and both the front office and Counsel know there will be growing pains - and they are willing to sit through those pains.

 

As for Roenicke, he seemed a bit lost to me. He looked tired and frustrated, and didn't have answers (which is bad for a leader - even if you're tired and frustrated you have to have the answers - or try to have them - and you can't look like you are lost). I said before that he looked like a dead man walking - he knew he was toast, and so did everyone else. It's hard to manage in that situation. No one wants to be part of a sinking ship.

 

As a manager, I didn't care for how much he bunted - I thought he didn't value outs like he should at times. Also, I was not thrilled with the way he ran the bullpen. I realize that many players and coaches like to have 'roles' for their guys in the pen, but this obsession was a killer at times. Remember Kameron Loe as our '8th inning guy' - that kind of thing worked out real well.

 

I respect that the players liked playing for him. That's important. But over time, it seems like he was marginalized by the players. As it has been pointed out, there weren't consequences to poor decisions, and in th end, the players just kind of ignored him. Perhaps part of that was not having strong leaders in the clubhouse - guys who kept things in line when needed. I don't know the answer - just speculating.

 

In the end, Counsel is the guy. If they seem to think he is a long term answer, it's fine to make the move now. No use dragging out the process. And the last thing the front office wanted was Roenicke's team to win 5-6 games in a row - then it's hard to make the change.

[LouisEly]

Or you can just not play along and let the other team put your players on base and let them eventually get suspended as the game continues to evolve.

Or your players are the ones who get a broken hand/finger and end up missing 1-2 months (or a bruised knee/hand and miss 3-4 games) because the other team pitches inside and you don't. Like someone else said, you don't go for the head, you go for their rear end/upper thighs/lower torso.

 

On the topic of managerial impact, players can't fill out the lineup card. If you're in the majors then you have the confidence, ego, and desire to play everyday regardless of whether that's the best decision. Professional baseball players aren't going to say, "I shouldn't play against this tough lefty today because I don't hit lefty's well." It's the manager's job to put players in the best place to succeed, to know when to start players and when not to, to know when to rest a guy and when to have him fight through it. IMO, RRR hasn't been horrible at that but he also hasn't been good at it either. It's some of the little things.

 

It's overusing guys. It's looking ahead in the schedule and planning the right days off for guys based on pitching matchups. It's knowing which pitcher to bring in, based on matchups, in the 7th/8th/even 9th. It's knowing when to run a guy for one inning and when to stretch him for two innings. It's bringing in a pinch hitter just to sac bunt (instead of letting the pitcher bunt, or bringing in your best bunting pitcher to do it, instead of wasting a bench bat). These are the little things that RRR is mediocre at.

 

At this point, for me it falls under the category of "not necessarily the core problem, but at this point it can't hurt and you pretty much have nothing to lose by doing it."

[adamb100]

It looks they got Counsell as manager for a 3 year deal... https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=Todd_Rosiak

[jerichoholicninja]

Will there be a live televised press conference?

[bill hAll Star]

Or you can just not play along and let the other team put your players on base and let them eventually get suspended as the game continues to evolve.

Or your players are the ones who get a broken hand/finger and end up missing 1-2 months (or a bruised knee/hand and miss 3-4 games) because the other team pitches inside and you don't. Like someone else said, you don't go for the head, you go for their rear end/upper thighs/lower torso.

 

Did this broken finger happen because RRR or whatever manager didn't throw at them? Is that really the cause-effect there?

 

Yost threw back at LaRussa sometimes and fights broke out (perhaps an injury could happen here?) and LaRussa and later Matheny were still throwing at the Brewers years later. Throwing back at the other team does nothing. They'll throw back at you 3 weeks later.

[patrickgpe]

Will there be a live televised press conference?

streamng online and i am sure the local TV stations will show it

[topper09er]

 

Ron is the reason we remained 2 games from the World Series when he decided to start Marcum in game 6 despite the fact that Marcum was toast and that everyone in the world knew Marcum was toast. He should have been fired after game 6 for being that stupid.

 

 

I said it then and I'll say it now - that's true, but who else should he have started?

 

Gallardo on short rest or Naverson for 2-3 innings and the BP for the rest.

 

Larussa won that series and I don't think he got more than 18 innings out of his starters total. A good or creative manager can find a way to win.

 

I'm not saying we win if RR does either of those moves, but at least we would have had a chance. Marcum gave us no chance. It was obvious he had nothing left, everyone said it before the game began. Let's be honest, had RR done that in Boston or NY, he would not have been fired today, he would have been fired years ago.

 

 

Thank you, Marcum should not have been allowed to start 1 game in the NLCS yet alone 2. RRR had a -2 WAR that series. The 2 games Marcum started the Brewers were losing a combined 0-6 before they even came to bat!

Very frustrating considering our 2008 demise was the same thing, they started Suppan because he was "the guy that got us here" when clearly they should have started Yo + bullpen and then CC for game 5.

[Invader3K]

Press conference will be here starting at 10:30 AM CT: http://m.brewers.mlb.com/mil/video/v100941283/brewers-press-conference

[homer]

Game 6 was the deciding game and that's why people remember it. But people forget the Brewers stunk it up in Game 5. Greinke was shelled and the team could only muster one run.

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

 

At its inception, a baseball game was won when one side scored 21 aces. The game has changed a lot, and the beanball craze is one thing that needs to go as well.

 

Well it's not going away any time soon and as long as you have teams like the Cardinals that continue to throw at guys your risking your own players getting hurt by not playing along. If Ken Macha's strongly worded letter to the commissioner didn't stop it, nothing will.

 

 

Ok, so the Cardinals throw inside, and hit a guy.

 

You hit a guy back. You are now going to not get guys hit because of this?

 

That is your implication.

 

You are saying the Cardinals will now not hit your batters? Or throw inside?

 

This is eminently false.

[BarneyStinston]

It seems fitting that the guy who almost broke the hitless streak record is being hired as manager of the team with the fewest hits in the NL. What will he do next? Mess around with the players' batting stances?

[TheCrew07]

As far as the hitting batters thing goes, most of the injuries happen when a batter is accidentally hit, and to me that's just part of baseball. Hitters crowd the plate and I firmly believe that pitchers need to control the inside part of the plate as well so when you combine the 2 there will be a certain amount of collateral damage.

 

For the most part we have pitchers who nibble at the outside corner so we just aren't used to seeing batters get hit. To me though from the pitching perspective a pitcher needs to own the inside part of the plate so as I said I'm willing to risk putting a guy on base here and there if a pitch gets away.

 

There are obvious situations where a guy is hit "accidentally on purpose" but that's not what I'm talking about. For example the Pirates as a team pitch to the inner part of the plate, so they have many hit batsmen, but I don't believe it to be malicious. I just think the art of pitching has gotten lost in the over application of statistical analysis and there are certain pitches that we don't see used much anymore... It's acceptable to waste 3 pitches in the dirt in an AB but it's not acceptable to throw that high FB out of the zone or the pitch under the hands that hitters will mostly swing through. I'd rather sit a hitter back in the dugout in as few pitches as possible so I'm not into wasting pitches, especially with the arbitrary 100 pitch count.

[Thurston Fluff]

The problems with this organization go much farther up the chain than who the manager is, this constantly shuffling of the coaching deck leads to instability. There are very few successful programs at any level of sport in business who have consistent turnover.

 

Exactly. I posted that exact same point a few pages back. If players know the manager isn't going to be the scape goat they may find themselves being held more accountable. Stability is one ingredient necessary for a manager to be able to address the actual problems with players.

 

I don't think it is about hurting each other, I think it is more about protecting your teammates, and sending messages... I don't want guys getting head hunted, but I do want guys getting hit in the leg or butt to send a message that if you come after my guy, I'm coming after yours.

 

I have a funny feeling hitting someone for hitting Segura last night would have lead to more players being hit later in the season. Not to mention fines and suspensions. My guess is teams like the Cards under LaRussa ended up with more players hit on their team because they are always doing the tit for tat crap.

[torts]

Keith Law straight up trollin' by RT'ing some troll of his who asked "wonder if any minority candidates were interviewed for the former-commisioners-former team". he's. such. a. TROLL.

[torts]

also, reading the tweets of the presser makes me REALLY happy for Craiggers. Home town guy gets to manager the team he grew up with? I mean, thats pretty awesome.

[Pugger]

The hangover from last year's collapse has a lot to do with the awful start this year. This should have happened in October. Roenicke is a nice man, and knows baseball, but he lacks leadership skills and when things went south under his tenure, he couldn't get his team to fight it's way out of it. Yesterday was a good example of lack of leadership. He should never have left it up to Segura about staying in the game. You don't leave that to the player who was just hit in the head. It appears Gomez stepped up and convinced Segura to come out.

 

Like the Counsell selection. He's in the mold of Matheny.

 

We hope...

 

I certainly hope not, as Matheny is possibly the worst tactical manager in the league.

 

At least he wins.

[Funketown]

Managerial debut:

 

Kershaw vs. Lohse

 

Ouch.

[torts]

 

We hope...

 

I certainly hope not, as Matheny is possibly the worst tactical manager in the league.

 

At least he wins.

 

[sarcasm]"its not the manager who wins, its the players"[/sarcasm]

[reillymcshane]

Counsell managed to accumulate 22.3 bWAR (17.7 fWAR) in his career. Over 15 years, that's not a huge amount - but it's nothing to sneeze at. He played good defense, was a solid baserunner and took almost as many walks (10.7% walk rate) as he had strike outs. Defense, baserunning, plate discipline - those are all things this club could use.

[fondybrewfan]

This bagging on RR for starting Marcum in Game #6 is kind of annoying me. He was faced with 3 crappy options: 1. Start Marcum; 2. Start Gallardo on short rest after he got shelled the game prior; 3. Bullpen by committee.

 

I am sorry but all 3 of those options sucked. Gallardo pitched like crap in Game #3 and always struggled against STL; Marcum was obviously struggling at the end of the year; and a bullpen by committee in Game #6 of the WS is never a good option either.

 

Even with Marcum having a horrible start; the Brewers were down 5-4 after 2. Only after Narveson; who some apparently wanted to start the game; gave up 4 runs in the 3rd inning did things start to get out of hand. Even with Marcum starting the Brewers were still in a good position to win but the bullpen couldn't hold the Cards down

[pacopete4]

I'll be interested to see where Gomez bats tonight. Will it be status quo lineup or will the new, inexperienced manager, come with a "fresh" idea and see what happens.

[Pugger]

I really liked Counsell as a player and have wanted to see him manage for a while. I'm not expecting Counsell to suddenly turn us into playoff contenders but hopefully he can sort of right the ship (though I'd still like Melvin gone and that probably means continuing to lose).

 

Lot tougher changing GM's in midseason. Melvin could still be stepping down after this year. He's turning 63.

 

As for Counsell suddenly turning them into pennant contenders, if he gets them playing to their ability levels, anything can happen with 137 games left. Not going to be easy, but they aren't buried in terms of wild card just yet. They were appearing to show some signs of emerging from the major hangover effect of last season's collapse. Finally holding the manager responsible can't hurt.

 

I think we should all hope Counsell can get the guys to play more fundamentally sound baseball - don't screw up on the bases, move runners over and be more patient at the plate. If they do these 3 things we'll see a better brand of baseball if nothing else.