Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[Bigblast]

I hope Counsell can pull back a little on all the base running. I'm all for being aggressive on the bases, but under Ron the ran with reckless abandon and looked ridiculous all to often doing it.

[Patrick425]

This is the 3rd year in a row that a Roenicke team has been derailed by one just awful streak they couldn't get out of so I totally understand letting him go. I don't see any reason to think Counsell is qualified to coach a major league team though so I really hate the hire. At least it is early in a throw away season so it isn't like he can really do any damage either.

 

Why do you think he's "unqualified"? He has not coached one MLB game yet, so not sure how anyone can make that judgement (unless experience is your sole criteria). I know a lot of people wanted someone like Gardenhire, but maybe there is a reason he's not currently managing a MLB team. Also, perhaps they inquired about him and he said he was not interested or wanted more that they were willing to offer. Perhaps they told him they were looking to rebuild and he said he wasn't interested in managing a team that was going in that direction.

 

This new era of former players with no managerial experience is all the rage. Maybe it will work for us??

 

Again, weren't all MLB managers former players with no managing experience at one point?

[homer]

A lot of MLB managers were at least bench coaches or managers in the minors. Not sure that's required on the resume but it's the norm

[3and2Fastball]

Generally, someone at least coaches/manages in the minors for a year or two before becoming an MLB manager. Until recently

[Oldcity]

The hangover from last year's collapse has a lot to do with the awful start this year. This should have happened in October. Roenicke is a nice man, and knows baseball, but he lacks leadership skills and when things went south under his tenure, he couldn't get his team to fight it's way out of it. Yesterday was a good example of lack of leadership. He should never have left it up to Segura about staying in the game. You don't leave that to the player who was just hit in the head. It appears Gomez stepped up and convinced Segura to come out.

 

Like the Counsell selection. He's in the mold of Matheny.

 

We hope...

 

I certainly hope not, as Matheny is possibly the worst tactical manager in the league.

[Patrick425]

Generally, someone at least coaches/manages in the minors for a year or two before becoming an MLB manager. Until recently

 

 

Noted and I guess that's a decent point.

 

I don't know if Counsell will be a good manager or bad manager, but it would be hard for me to say that it was a bad decision without really knowing what all the options were and how the decision was made. I'm going to give Counsell the benefit of the doubt and at least watch how he manages for 3 or 4 months before making any judgments on his abilities as a manager.

[SoupTown]

My hope is we can have a manager that treats the players like men. If we have a bunch of weak stomached babies for players - who cant perform because of this slight or that niggle or this offense - then the manager need not call them out - he just lets them go. Davis and Gennett are good examples right now. They either start performing, or you put them back to AAA

 

This team, for too long, gives players months... even years... to turn it around. There is never, for years, any accountability. That is why I often call Milwaukee a good retirement village. You get your cash and dont get stressed.

 

I dont want a screaming manager, but I want one who will recycle talent as soon as he sees there is a deficiency. I want new players over and over until somebody proves they can play baseball. And if ALL the players we have cant play baseball... well, that is on Doug and Mark. The manager should not try to candy coat or cover or protect. If he gets crap players from the owner and GM, he can simply say 'give me new crap... eventually you will, like a monkey throwing darts at a board, find some talent'.

 

I am tired of our players being immune. And I am tired of seeing no future guys out on the field. In fact, I am nearly OVER this organisation. 45 years is a long time to follow. And the vast majority of these years the system is run by incompetents. It gets very, very taxing on a fan.

 

New manager. I sure hope he will treat the players like they are men. Imagine have a bunch of babies accidentally get on a hot streak - or lead the division for 150 days. They will not have the nerve to finish the job. The manager's ONE best move can be to make the players accountable ONE by ONE. Not in a masochistic way, but in a 'sorry, you have not performed, you are out - based on performance, way'

[Brewtraveler]

Don;'t care if they fired him or not. Not much he could have done to make this start any different. Hopefully the can go on a streak and get something out of this season.

 

But hiring Counsell is not a good choice. Not sure how hiring a first time manager can generate excitement even if it's a hometown hero. And I certainly not excited for the people to start the complaining after the first losing streak and calling for his head. It's almost like they don't understand that there are 162 and every team in the league will lost around 65 games or more. Get those emails ready because it won't be long before you will be posting them to this site.

[TURBO]

Yeah, that's what we need in baseball. More stupid, macho idiots trying to hurt each other.

 

I don't think it is about hurting each other, I think it is more about protecting your teammates, and sending messages... I don't want guys getting head hunted, but I do want guys getting hit in the leg or butt to send a message that if you come after my guy, I'm coming after yours.

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

[TURBO]

 

 

So how did they ever win 96 games with him?

 

They won 96 games in spite of him, not because of him....Glad for the change, it was long overdue...

 

 

Agreed. Again, roster matters more than manager.

 

Of course roster matters, but saying the manager has no say in the win loss column is backwards thinking in my opinion. I have never understood the opinion that managers have no effect on wins and losses, I just can't comprehend that line of thinking...

[adamb100]

I really liked Counsell as a player and have wanted to see him manage for a while. I'm not expecting Counsell to suddenly turn us into playoff contenders but hopefully he can sort of right the ship (though I'd still like Melvin gone and that probably means continuing to lose).

[TURBO]

My hope is we can have a manager that treats the players like men. If we have a bunch of weak stomached babies for players - who cant perform because of this slight or that niggle or this offense - then the manager need not call them out - he just lets them go. Davis and Gennett are good examples right now. They either start performing, or you put them back to AAA

 

This team, for too long, gives players months... even years... to turn it around. There is never, for years, any accountability. That is why I often call Milwaukee a good retirement village. You get your cash and dont get stressed.

 

I dont want a screaming manager, but I want one who will recycle talent as soon as he sees there is a deficiency. I want new players over and over until somebody proves they can play baseball. And if ALL the players we have cant play baseball... well, that is on Doug and Mark. The manager should not try to candy coat or cover or protect. If he gets crap players from the owner and GM, he can simply say 'give me new crap... eventually you will, like a monkey throwing darts at a board, find some talent'.

 

I am tired of our players being immune. And I am tired of seeing no future guys out on the field. In fact, I am nearly OVER this organisation. 45 years is a long time to follow. And the vast majority of these years the system is run by incompetents. It gets very, very taxing on a fan.

 

New manager. I sure hope he will treat the players like they are men. Imagine have a bunch of babies accidentally get on a hot streak - or lead the division for 150 days. They will not have the nerve to finish the job. The manager's ONE best move can be to make the players accountable ONE by ONE. Not in a masochistic way, but in a 'sorry, you have not performed, you are out - based on performance, way'

 

LIKE!

 

I wish I could add to this, but it is too perfect to mess with.

[TheCrew07]

I haven't gotten through the entire thread yet, only the first 3 pages before my browser crashed, but I thought I'd post before I finish reading that I think this is a pretty worthless move.

 

The problems with this organization go much farther up the chain than who the manager is, this constantly shuffling of the coaching deck leads to instability. There are very few successful programs at any level of sport in business who have consistent turnover.

 

But hey, at least Melvin got to keep his job and will get to hire yet another manager.

[Oldcity]

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

 

At its inception, a baseball game was won when one side scored 21 aces. The game has changed a lot, and the beanball craze is one thing that needs to go as well.

[jerichoholicninja]

Just read the Rosenthal article and he mentions (which it seems like many here, myself included, forgot) that Counsell was a finalist for the Rays jobs last offseason but he removed himself from consideration to stay with Milwaukee. Not to say that the Rays are the gold standard for an organization but if they were seriously considering Counsell for their job I don't think it's as far fetched an idea for him the be managing the Brewers as so many commenters seem to feel. I remember from a thread about that that there were a few comments that the reason he stayed in Milwaukee is because he knew he would be the manager after Ron.

[bill hAll Star]

My hope is we can have a manager that treats the players like men. If we have a bunch of weak stomached babies for players - who cant perform because of this slight or that niggle or this offense - then the manager need not call them out - he just lets them go. Davis and Gennett are good examples right now. They either start performing, or you put them back to AAA

 

This team, for too long, gives players months... even years... to turn it around. There is never, for years, any accountability. That is why I often call Milwaukee a good retirement village. You get your cash and dont get stressed.

 

I dont want a screaming manager, but I want one who will recycle talent as soon as he sees there is a deficiency. I want new players over and over until somebody proves they can play baseball. And if ALL the players we have cant play baseball... well, that is on Doug and Mark. The manager should not try to candy coat or cover or protect. If he gets crap players from the owner and GM, he can simply say 'give me new crap... eventually you will, like a monkey throwing darts at a board, find some talent'.

 

I am tired of our players being immune. And I am tired of seeing no future guys out on the field. In fact, I am nearly OVER this organisation. 45 years is a long time to follow. And the vast majority of these years the system is run by incompetents. It gets very, very taxing on a fan.

 

New manager. I sure hope he will treat the players like they are men. Imagine have a bunch of babies accidentally get on a hot streak - or lead the division for 150 days. They will not have the nerve to finish the job. The manager's ONE best move can be to make the players accountable ONE by ONE. Not in a masochistic way, but in a 'sorry, you have not performed, you are out - based on performance, way'

 

LIKE!

 

I wish I could add to this, but it is too perfect to mess with.

 

You give guys months to turn it around in baseball because if you judge on small samples, career (hitting) scrubs like Jose Iglesias would have won the MVP over the first 3 weeks and a AAAA like Shane Greene (I'm picking on the Tigers for some reason) would have won the Cy Young.

 

Not everyone is consistent or hot all season. Good players eventually turn out good seasons and it is not due to some manager putting pressure on them, it is due to the law of averages and statistics. Of course, a guy really could be losing confidence, slacking, or be swinging with the wrong form...which is where a manager can help...but it is better that a manager allow a guy like Khris Davis, who will likely still put up a 20 HR .780 OPS season to get it right rather than pressure him with the minor leagues unless the league has found a major flaw and Khris cannot combat it.

 

We just saw it with Ryan Braun. He's not going to be hot all year and he's probably not the .900+ OPS guy he was all year, but give him time to turn it around and, hey, he's a good hitter! That's how things work. Nobody is going to have a consistently great year for all 162 games by having a try-hard manager telling them that they'll get sent down if they go through a cold streak like 100% of other baseball players do when the ball bounces to the fielders too often.

[JohnBriggs12]

I really liked Counsell as a player and have wanted to see him manage for a while. I'm not expecting Counsell to suddenly turn us into playoff contenders but hopefully he can sort of right the ship (though I'd still like Melvin gone and that probably means continuing to lose).

 

Lot tougher changing GM's in midseason. Melvin could still be stepping down after this year. He's turning 63.

 

As for Counsell suddenly turning them into pennant contenders, if he gets them playing to their ability levels, anything can happen with 137 games left. Not going to be easy, but they aren't buried in terms of wild card just yet. They were appearing to show some signs of emerging from the major hangover effect of last season's collapse. Finally holding the manager responsible can't hurt.

[jerichoholicninja]

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

 

At its inception, a baseball game was won when one side scored 21 aces. The game has changed a lot, and the beanball craze is one thing that needs to go as well.

 

Well it's not going away any time soon and as long as you have teams like the Cardinals that continue to throw at guys your risking your own players getting hurt by not playing along. If Ken Macha's strongly worded letter to the commissioner didn't stop it, nothing will.

[bill hAll Star]

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

 

At its inception, a baseball game was won when one side scored 21 aces. The game has changed a lot, and the beanball craze is one thing that needs to go as well.

 

Well it's not going away any time soon and as long as you have teams like the Cardinals that continue to throw at guys your risking your own players getting hurt by not playing along. If Ken Macha's strongly worded letter to the commissioner didn't stop it, nothing will.

 

Or you can just not play along and let the other team put your players on base and let them eventually get suspended as the game continues to evolve.

[dhoffman19]

Ron is the reason we remained 2 games from the World Series when he decided to start Marcum in game 6 despite the fact that Marcum was toast and that everyone in the world knew Marcum was toast. He should have been fired after game 6 for being that stupid.

 

 

I said it then and I'll say it now - that's true, but who else should he have started?

 

Gallardo on short rest or Naverson for 2-3 innings and the BP for the rest.

 

Larussa won that series and I don't think he got more than 18 innings out of his starters total. A good or creative manager can find a way to win.

 

I'm not saying we win if RR does either of those moves, but at least we would have had a chance. Marcum gave us no chance. It was obvious he had nothing left, everyone said it before the game began. Let's be honest, had RR done that in Boston or NY, he would not have been fired today, he would have been fired years ago.

 

 

Obviously in hindsight it would have been nice to try something else, but Gallardo was brutal in game 3. Just as bad as Marcum's previous start but with more walks. Can't imagine he would have been better on short rest.

[Funketown]

This seems like an ideal situation for Counsell -- there's basically no pressure for this season, and he can develop any 'soft-skills' necessary to manage the club.

 

I'll be curious to know how analytically inclined Counsell is, and hopefully he'll be a rare blend of a 'baseball guy' who also has some understanding of the analytical side of the game (lineup optimization, defensive evaluation, etc.), given his experience with Melvin.

[Bombers]

I haven't gotten through the entire thread yet, only the first 3 pages before my browser crashed, but I thought I'd post before I finish reading that I think this is a pretty worthless move.

 

The problems with this organization go much farther up the chain than who the manager is, this constantly shuffling of the coaching deck leads to instability. There are very few successful programs at any level of sport in business who have consistent turnover.

 

But hey, at least Melvin got to keep his job and will get to hire yet another manager.

And this is where I am at. Canning RRR is fine as he failed far to often and his team under performed. As for the direction of the franchise and the talent that is brought in from year to year, that is on Melvin. And I keep going to he has 1 post season series win in ~20 years as a GM. He completely squandered our opportunity from all the talent we had with top draft picks. Looking back at the teams with Fielder, Braun, etc - there is no reason we should have had only 2 playoff appearances. His lack of developing and obtaining pitching for most of those years is his legacy. He would rather spend $23 million on Gagne and Riske than spend it on starting pitching. To me, the only thing left is to can Melvin. He had his chance and failed.

[Baldkin]

Yeah, that's what we need in baseball. More stupid, macho idiots trying to hurt each other.

 

I don't think it is about hurting each other, I think it is more about protecting your teammates, and sending messages... I don't want guys getting head hunted, but I do want guys getting hit in the leg or butt to send a message that if you come after my guy, I'm coming after yours.

 

This has nothing to do with macho nonsense, it has to do with how the game has been played since its inception.

 

"It's always been that way" is a terrible reason to keep doing anything. Baseball would still be played with all white players if you held up that logic.

[Baldkin]

My hope is we can have a manager that treats the players like men. If we have a bunch of weak stomached babies for players - who cant perform because of this slight or that niggle or this offense - then the manager need not call them out - he just lets them go. Davis and Gennett are good examples right now. They either start performing, or you put them back to AAA

 

This team, for too long, gives players months... even years... to turn it around. There is never, for years, any accountability. That is why I often call Milwaukee a good retirement village. You get your cash and dont get stressed.

 

I dont want a screaming manager, but I want one who will recycle talent as soon as he sees there is a deficiency. I want new players over and over until somebody proves they can play baseball. And if ALL the players we have cant play baseball... well, that is on Doug and Mark. The manager should not try to candy coat or cover or protect. If he gets crap players from the owner and GM, he can simply say 'give me new crap... eventually you will, like a monkey throwing darts at a board, find some talent'.

 

I am tired of our players being immune. And I am tired of seeing no future guys out on the field. In fact, I am nearly OVER this organisation. 45 years is a long time to follow. And the vast majority of these years the system is run by incompetents. It gets very, very taxing on a fan.

 

New manager. I sure hope he will treat the players like they are men. Imagine have a bunch of babies accidentally get on a hot streak - or lead the division for 150 days. They will not have the nerve to finish the job. The manager's ONE best move can be to make the players accountable ONE by ONE. Not in a masochistic way, but in a 'sorry, you have not performed, you are out - based on performance, way'

 

You do realize this is exactly what Ken Macha did, and the clubhouse hated him a result and he was fired as a result of that, right?

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Aside from thinking this doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, I can think of 2 potential positives in hiring Counsell.

 

1) The casual fan will like it, and the team needs them to stay interested.

 

2) My hope is having worked with the front office they can be on the same page when it comes to rebuilding the club. Probably wishful thinking, but I keep thinking the front office knows what's ahead of them and it's MA who's struggling to get on board.