Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[MrTPlush]

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but just consider the fact that these are elite athletes. They are guys that can most likely roll out of bed hung over and still hit a 95mph fastball.They aren't built like you or me physically or mentally so I don't think all the comparisons to high school team sports or the business world are really apples to apples.

 

Baseball is much more than hitting a baseball or throwing 100mph. Baseball might be the most situation game of any major sport. When you have everyone looking to hit homers when all they need is a sac fly you run into problems. When guys run once the ball is hit you run into boneheaded mistakes. Baseball is not a selfish game like you seem to think...there is a big mental side to it.

[homer]

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but just consider the fact that these are elite athletes. They are guys that can most likely roll out of bed hung over and still hit a 95mph fastball.They aren't built like you or me physically or mentally so I don't think all the comparisons to high school team sports or the business world are really apples to apples.

 

Baseball is much more than hitting a baseball or throwing 100mph. Baseball might be the most situation game of any major sport. When you have everyone looking to hit homers when all they need is a sac fly you run into problems. When guys run once the ball is hit you run into boneheaded mistakes. Baseball is not a selfish game like you seem to think...there is a big mental side to it.

 

I don't think that it's a selfish game. But it is essentially a game of one on one - pitcher vs. batter. The only time you have "team work" is on defense when you throw a ball to a base or a cutoff guy. Like I said in an earlier post, there are exceptions where selfish play could impact things (i.e. not hitting a cut off man, refusing to hit to right field in order to advance a guy form second to third, etc.) but on the whole it's one on one.

 

To summarize my point and then I'll bow out because i feel like I'm repeating myself: I don't think morale is important enough to significantly impact a baseball team's won/loss record. To me won/loss record drives morale, not the other way around. I respect the fact that not everyone agrees with that.

[zjl3]

Responding to the Rosenthal article, I don't understand why Brewers fans should be comfortable with Melvin anywhere near this team. He's already President of Baseball Operations. What's next - Super President of Baseball Operations? He needs to go away from this team, not somewhere else on this team.

[TheCrew07]

Is CC going to be that kind of guy? I don't know... I don't know that my perfect manager actually exists.

Joe Maddon? If he isn't the perfect manager, he's pretty darn close.

 

Man these threads are moving so fast I'm hopelessly behind at the moment, I still want to get back to the open for business thread.

 

To answer your question he has many of the traits I would look for but he's not available, and he's a little too old. I'd like someone younger who could be around 10-12 years best case and someone who's willing to keep learning and expanding their skill set, and that's a pretty rare trait. It seems to be incredibly rare in baseball, it seems like for whatever reason people around this game get really entrenched in what was rather than what could be. Maybe it's just because I come from a different sports background where we were always looking for a different way to teach, or a different wrinkle in a scheme that could help us, maybe not even today, but in the future with a different set of athletes.

 

Counsell is in that age range I'd be looking for but I really don't know how smart of a player he is, how he feels about young talent, or how good of a teacher he is. I just have no familiarity with him as a coach and I didn't particularly care for him as a player. For example I like Matt Erickson, he's a patient teacher of the game and he's a WI boy (like Counsell), but after watching his teams play I'm just not sure he'd be "renegade" enough for me, he's pretty traditional.

 

People are saying Counsell maximized his limited potential as player and while I agree he had physical limits as a player, that horribly twisted batting stance didn't maximize his productivity at the plate.

 

You could easily be right and Maddon is the guy I'm looking for, but he didn't stay in TB, so why would he stay in Milwaukee? As I said I'm not sure my ideal coach even exists but in lieu of that I'd settle for someone who's a patient teacher of the game like Davey Johnson whom I wanted post Yost and Macha. If Counsell is that guy I'm sure I'll be okay with him and while the Brewers are certainly not as bad as they played in April, they weren't a 90 win team coming into the season regardless, so to me this was mostly a publicity stunt, but maybe it turns into a happy accident and Counsell is the guy I've been looking for.

[jerichoholicninja]

It's truly remarkable that Doug Melvin doesn't see himself as part of the problem. Clueless.

 

Is Doug going to fire himself?

[adambr2]

What will do without all the nicknames ending in 'y'?

 

Gomey. Seggy. Brauny. Rammy. I'm sure there's more.

 

The most aggravating part of this was listening to him refer to Rickie Weeks as "Rick".

[Thurston Fluff]

It's truly remarkable that Doug Melvin doesn't see himself as part of the problem. Clueless.

 

Is Doug going to fire himself?

 

Sal Bando did. He had to Wendy wasn't going to. Speaking of Wendy Selig Prieb she also fired herself. AS far Doug firing himself I think it more likely Doug has seen his shortcomings and wants to fix them as opposed to just quit because he found out he had some.

[502 to Right]

It's truly remarkable that Doug Melvin doesn't see himself as part of the problem. Clueless.

 

Is Doug going to fire himself?

 

 

He should if he's interested in the Brewers winning a World Series (or at least playing in one).

 

At this point Doug Melvin is what he is. I'd rather the team look for the next Andrew Friedman or Theo Epstein.

[SoupTown]

So after 20 years Doug has found a short coming in himself. It will take him another 20 years to find a solution. And another 20 years for him to implement it.

[brewcrewdue80]

So many pages to read, I maybe read 15 of them in 3days w/o making a comment due to be so far behind.

 

I am glad Roenicke is gone. I don't believe he helped the clubhouse chemistry. That the players cohesively played better because of his managing. Just poor approaches at the plate, running the bases in situations(why most Gomez attempt stealing 3b with 2outs? Running on contact any ball out of the infield that's a hit, he's going to score!) My belief that he doesn't protect batters by throwing at more hitters when his were hit in games. I don't care about that one game or the series result with that matter, I look at it, as the other 29 MLB team managers know that this attitude to bean a player back is coming....And that stops them from doing it being a positive for the team over the season. It's the impression he would have left and not the Win/Loss outcome.

And I also believe in team chemistry/clubhouse cancer and I think he may have been one by all that he was for a manager. The I don't know why we have this talent on a roster and we go on these losing stretches....

Lack of fight is what I hear/see. And that to me goes in to the dugout and the performance of the team/"individuals". He was just too behind the scenes, not making noise and trudge along. Not exciting. Where do you find the fire in your belly with a leader like that? And maybe that is also why the Team itself of players kind of lack a Clubhouse leader. Not Braun, not Gomez, and we turn to Lucroy? Why didn't he groom and find that? If he wasn't going to be that guy himself.

 

Maybe Counsell will be that leader. Or identify and make a leader of the young players he manages forthcoming.

Already have the Come From behind win which began vs Kershaw of all SPs.

I am all for the Manager hire. Counsell is young, was already desired by Tampa, and has been the talk of being groomed as a future GM. He must be bright/super smart in baseball operations, and that could be translated in to also managing baseball.

We're supposedly in a losing phase right? Which should last 3years regardless. I think locking Counsell up is a smart move vs. him being taken to some other franchise. Giving him just the interim tag would leave him available to other teams.

[MrTPlush]

So many pages to read, I maybe read 15 of them in 3days w/o making a comment due to be so far behind.

 

I am glad Roenicke is gone. I don't believe he helped the clubhouse chemistry. That the players cohesively played better because of his managing. Just poor approaches at the plate, running the bases in situations(why most Gomez attempt stealing 3b with 2outs? Running on contact any ball out of the infield that's a hit, he's going to score!) My belief that he doesn't protect batters by throwing at more hitters when his were hit in games. I don't care about that one game or the series result with that matter, I look at it, as the other 29 MLB team managers know that this attitude to bean a player back is coming....And that stops them from doing it being a positive for the team over the season. It's the impression he would have left and not the Win/Loss outcome.

And I also believe in team chemistry/clubhouse cancer and I think he may have been one by all that he was for a manager. The I don't know why we have this talent on a roster and we go on these losing stretches....

Lack of fight is what I hear/see. And that to me goes in to the dugout and the performance of the team/"individuals". He was just too behind the scenes, not making noise and trudge along. Not exciting. Where do you find the fire in your belly with a leader like that? And maybe that is also why the Team itself of players kind of lack a Clubhouse leader. Not Braun, not Gomez, and we turn to Lucroy? Why didn't he groom and find that? If he wasn't going to be that guy himself.

 

Maybe Counsell will be that leader. Or identify and make a leader of the young players he manages forthcoming.

Already have the Come From behind win which began vs Kershaw of all SPs.

I am all for the Manager hire. Counsell is young, was already desired by Tampa, and has been the talk of being groomed as a future GM. He must be bright/super smart in baseball operations, and that could be translated in to also managing baseball.

We're supposedly in a losing phase right? Which should last 3years regardless. I think locking Counsell up is a smart move vs. him being taken to some other franchise. Giving him just the interim tag would leave him available to other teams.

 

I really don't think he ever had interest in the Rays job and I don't think he would truly considering managing else where. I personally think he knew he could get the job in Milwaukee after Roenicke would inevitably be axed. I wouldn't even be surprised if Doug and Craig talked about it. Maybe getting deep into the Rays search was something to convince Melvin. Regardless I highly doubt Doug and Craig didn't talk about the job until magically 2 weeks ago.

[brewcrewdue80]

Yes. And if the Brewers didn't hire him though? How'd you think Craig could react?

[monty57]

I really don't think he ever had interest in the Rays job and I don't think he would truly considering managing else where. I personally think he knew he could get the job in Milwaukee after Roenicke would inevitably be axed. I wouldn't even be surprised if Doug and Craig talked about it. Maybe getting deep into the Rays search was something to convince Melvin. Regardless I highly doubt Doug and Craig didn't talk about the job until magically 2 weeks ago.

 

If this is the case, why didn't they fire Roenicke after last season and replace him with Counsell? There are only 30 MLB manager positions available and millions of people who would like to be one. If you want to be a manager and are offered the position, you would generally be crazy not to accept.

[MrTPlush]

I really don't think he ever had interest in the Rays job and I don't think he would truly considering managing else where. I personally think he knew he could get the job in Milwaukee after Roenicke would inevitably be axed. I wouldn't even be surprised if Doug and Craig talked about it. Maybe getting deep into the Rays search was something to convince Melvin. Regardless I highly doubt Doug and Craig didn't talk about the job until magically 2 weeks ago.

 

If this is the case, why didn't they fire Roenicke after last season and replace him with Counsell? There are only 30 MLB manager positions available and millions of people who would like to be one. If you want to be a manager and are offered the position, you would generally be crazy not to accept.

 

Maybe they still believed in Roenicke? Maybe they felt they owed him something? Maybe Attanasio didn't trust Counsell yet. It was noted Melvin listed something crazy like 18 reasons Counsell should be the manager. Sounds like a lot of convincing.

 

When Counsell backed out of the possible Rays job he claimed, "I like my job with the Brewers right now." Does that mean he truly does like to executive job which the Rays didn't offer him some role in that way...while maybe the Brewers are still letting Counsell do some of those special assistant jobs? Or does that mean he just likes being with the Brewers.

[jerichoholicninja]

I really don't think he ever had interest in the Rays job and I don't think he would truly considering managing else where. I personally think he knew he could get the job in Milwaukee after Roenicke would inevitably be axed. I wouldn't even be surprised if Doug and Craig talked about it. Maybe getting deep into the Rays search was something to convince Melvin. Regardless I highly doubt Doug and Craig didn't talk about the job until magically 2 weeks ago.

 

If this is the case, why didn't they fire Roenicke after last season and replace him with Counsell? There are only 30 MLB manager positions available and millions of people who would like to be one. If you want to be a manager and are offered the position, you would generally be crazy not to accept.

 

Maybe they still believed in Roenicke? Maybe they felt they owed him something? Maybe Attanasio didn't trust Counsell yet. It was noted Melvin listed something crazy like 18 reasons Counsell should be the manager. Sounds like a lot of convincing.

 

When Counsell backed out of the possible Rays job he claimed, "I like my job with the Brewers right now." Does that mean he truly does like to executive job which the Rays didn't offer him some role in that way...while maybe the Brewers are still letting Counsell do some of those special assistant jobs? Or does that mean he just likes being with the Brewers.

 

I had posted way back in the off season when Counsell removed himself from the running that I think he knew it would take a miracle for Ron to keep his job and Craig was next in line. Working in the front office Craig probably was involved in discussions about Ron and saw the writing on the wall.

[LouisEly]

Maybe they still believed in Roenicke? Maybe they felt they owed him something? Maybe Attanasio didn't trust Counsell yet. It was noted Melvin listed something crazy like 18 reasons Counsell should be the manager. Sounds like a lot of convincing.

I think it is because, generally speaking, the players liked Roenicke. If you go back to Braun's comments that, to paraphrase, he was shocked they fired RRR, thought he was a good guy, but thought Counsell was one of if not the best leader he had ever been around.

 

I think it was a combination of poor performance along with an opportunity to upgrade to someone who a lot of people thought very, very highly of as a leader.

[3and2Fastball]

Roenicke really didn't have much of a chance in 2015. An incredibly poor job of roster building by Doug Melvin and I'm amazed he still has his job.

[monty57]

Although I don't like the way the team has been built for quite a while, I don't think anyone could have predicted the start they've had this season, which led to Roenicke's firing. Had they just had a "normal" bad start, Roenicke would still be the manager. Melvin makes the decision on the manager, and much of the "baseball world" was calling for Roenicke's head after last season. If there was some grand plan to replace Roenicke with Counsell, it would have been easy to do it then, they wouldn't have worked out some scheme where Counsell would back out of the Rays deal so he could hide in the shadows for a month and take his spot when he failed. I'm cynical, but I don't believe Melvin expected the team to blow up.

 

I think it's far more likely that the Rays liked him, but were not going to hire him so they allowed him to "back out" to save some face. The best parallel I can draw is this: I just saw the Michigan governor today say he wasn't going to run for President because "the work's not done in Michigan." Does anyone think that's the real reason, or did his team do some polling, which discovered he didn't have a shot at winning the nomination, so he was better off keeping the job he has, not looking foolish in a national spotlight, and aiding his chances for his future?

 

Life in the public spotlight can be a funny thing. As it worked out, people can say "the Rays are a smart team, and they wanted him, so he must have something." Had Counsell not withdrawn, then he would have been the loser, and the narrative could have been "the Rays are smart and they didn't take him, so there must be something wrong with him."

[TURBO]

Just curious why the title of this thread says "relieved of his duties" instead of fired...

 

He was fired, why not call it just that?

 

No disrespect intended, just curious.

[AZBrewCrew]

Just curious why the title of this thread says "relieved of his duties" instead of fired...

 

He was fired, why not call it just that?

 

No disrespect intended, just curious.

Thats how it was worded by the Milwaukee Brewers Baseball Club when I posted the original tweet

[502 to Right]

Yes. And if the Brewers didn't hire him though? How'd you think Craig could react?

 

 

Who gives a crap? When did Craig Counsell become some hot managing prospect? He's never done anything before to suggest he'd be a really good manager.

[danzig6767]

Yes. And if the Brewers didn't hire him though? How'd you think Craig could react?

 

Who gives a crap? When did Craig Counsell become some hot managing prospect? He's never done anything before to suggest he'd be a really good manager.

Nobody knows for sure who will become a good manager until that person actually has the job. Plenty of guys who were either bench coaches or a manager in the minors before getting a MLB manager job, they end up failing while guys with less experience do well.

[adambr2]

'We want to use our 27 outs on swinging the bat.' -Counsell

 

Amen. I read this as 'I have some major philosophical differences from Ron Roenicke.

[DHonks]

adam, the problem is that if you take away all aggressiveness from Gomez, Braun, and Seggy, we may not win as many. The aggressiveness of those guys can be frustrating, but we win more as a result of their play than they cost us. I think Counsell is talking about playing smarter. Take risks, but not unnecessary risks.

[adambr2]

adam, the problem is that if you take away all aggressiveness from Gomez, Braun, and Seggy, we may not win as many. The aggressiveness of those guys can be frustrating, but we win more as a result of their play than they cost us. I think Counsell is talking about playing smarter. Take risks, but not unnecessary risks.

 

I don't expect us to be entirely station to station, but I would like to see the outs we make on the bases drop significantly. In most situations, an out on a base is more 'bad' than taking an extra base is 'good'.

 

Like you said, just be smart about our aggression. Seems that we are doing a better job of that lately.