Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[Thurston Fluff]

Eye Black, last I checked, Roenicke had virtually the same winning percentage as Maddon

Not everyone uses W-L as the way they evaluate a manager, since a manager can make a good move & not have it work out. Same logic that would be used to determine that a hard hit line drive that happened to be hit right at a fielder was still good contact.

 

Additionally, Maddon's record has been compiled over a significantly longer stretch, & (mostly) in the toughest division in baseball year in & year out. It's disingenuous to suggest that you can accurately compare Roenicke & Maddon simply based on their managerial W-L records.

 

Obviously Doug Melvin used the record as the way to judge his manager. As far as the East being the toughest division the NL central had 9 playoff teams since 2011 compared to the AL east's 7. So I don't think the toughest division in baseball thing is that big a difference. With only one team making the playoffs and the second best record being 84-78 the excuse of the best division in baseball last year certainly didn't apply. Yet the Rays record was 77-85. Funny how the game works isn't it? RRR has a better record than Maddon and Maddon is not only hailed as one of the greatest managers but also gets a new job with a raise. RRR is close to being fired and only lasted one month into the season.

[yfinn6]

 

Wow, you're smart for figuring that out! Here's a cookie!

 

...I'm speaking more of what number he'll be given, as his number hadn't been changed yet.

 

But, good job! Atta boy!

 

What is happening to this site? The amount of rude posts appears to have tripled with a snap of a finger. Wow.

 

It's "new guy syndrome" where you have to flex your e-muscle within the first ~ 500 posts; abrasive, defensive, and inability to read sarcasm are typical traits.

[MrTPlush]

 

Wow, you're smart for figuring that out! Here's a cookie!

 

...I'm speaking more of what number he'll be given, as his number hadn't been changed yet.

 

But, good job! Atta boy!

 

What is happening to this site? The amount of rude posts appears to have tripled with a snap of a finger. Wow.

 

It's "new guy syndrome" where you have to flex your e-muscle within the first ~ 500 posts; abrasive, defensive, and inability to read sarcasm are typical traits.

 

After 500 posts your are just a _____.

 

 

Insert your word of choice.

[Invader3K]

Everyone,

 

I'll just remind you all that condescension and name calling are not tolerated on this forum. We can have a discussion about topics like this without it devolving into some kind of Yahoo sports chat.

 

Carry on.

[JohnBriggs12]

Roenicke at his core is a laid back touchy feely Southern Californian. Just his comment on Jackie Robinson day about being sensitive about sitting Davis that day. Really Ron, that's your focus? This team badly needed a more workmanlike identity. I think Counsell can give it one.

[Pugger]

Roenicke at his core is a laid back touchy feely Southern Californian. Just his comment on Jackie Robinson day about being sensitive about sitting Davis that day. Really Ron, that's your focus? This team badly needed a more workmanlike identity. I think Counsell can give it one.

 

Yes, Ron was a little to impassive for my liking.

[markedman5]

The last straw for me was when he said Aramis came to him to suggest he be moved down in the order and how RR was relieved that Aramis was "willing to do that".

 

Made me think....."Who is in charge here?"

[patrickgpe]

regarding coaches; he did signal out Kranitz, Sedar, and Narron when he was asked if he was given the option to bring him some coaches. got to think if he is considering replacing Coles with someone else

[CheezWizHed]

And in "team" sports like basketball and football I tend to agree. But baseball is largely an individual sport - it's batter vs. the pitcher. It's not like you have to work with your teammates to succeed in that case. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exceptions but to me they don't occur enough as to matter significantly.

 

Think of the effect on the SP staff that Lohse brought to the Brewers. He got all the SPs to watch each other's sessions. It built camaraderie, sharing experiences and improvements, looking for problems, etc.. I can't say that it increased our wins a bunch, but I would bet that sort of thing really had an impact on Wily Peralta's confidence out on the mound. Bringing up a young kid with strong team support can do a lot for someone's confidence when they are out battling one-on-one.

 

Same with "untuckem'". Silly, goofing around stuff... but brought a lot of team to an "individual" sport.

 

A good manager earns his money off the field. The in-game stuff is pretty minimal.

 

And, yes, I realize I just supported a manager's worth with two player examples, but the same can apply.

[brewers4eric]

The start of this season reminds me too much of what we had back in the dark days of 2002. Davey Lopes got canned after the team started 3-12. Jerry Royster won his first four games as manager before the team tanked and went 49-94 the rest of the way.

 

I suppose that we're encountering the end of the franchise turnaround cycle that started with the low point of the 2002 season. While I was surprised that they cut Roenicke loose when they did, I'm optimistic that Counsell can help the team turn things around. I keep looking at the roster and comparing it to what we had back in 2002. I'm confident that Counsell will keep our players from quitting on him. I don't think that Roenicke would have kept that from happening.

[3and2Fastball]

Honestly, this is the most optimistic I've felt about the Brewers future in several years. I sense that the front office really understands that a rebuild is likely needed. I am extremely optimistic about Craig Counsell as a Manager..... I think he could actually be a fantastic manager.....

[reillymcshane]

 

Think of the effect on the SP staff that Lohse brought to the Brewers. He got all the SPs to watch each other's sessions. It built camaraderie, sharing experiences and improvements, looking for problems, etc.. I can't say that it increased our wins a bunch, but I would bet that sort of thing really had an impact on Wily Peralta's confidence out on the mound. Bringing up a young kid with strong team support can do a lot for someone's confidence when they are out battling one-on-one.

I think Lohse is destined to be a pitching coach really quickly after he retires. I like the things I hear about him.

[pacopete4]

 

Think of the effect on the SP staff that Lohse brought to the Brewers. He got all the SPs to watch each other's sessions. It built camaraderie, sharing experiences and improvements, looking for problems, etc.. I can't say that it increased our wins a bunch, but I would bet that sort of thing really had an impact on Wily Peralta's confidence out on the mound. Bringing up a young kid with strong team support can do a lot for someone's confidence when they are out battling one-on-one.

I think Lohse is destined to be a pitching coach really quickly after he retires. I like the things I hear about him.

 

 

I agree. I feel as though he would make a good one. Heck, if he doesn't start pitching better, that may come quicker than he may want.

[monty57]

Ken Rosenthal with a good article about the managerial change, including some quotes from Melvin and talk of a possible "succession plan" for Doug Melvin to step down from GM duties: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-fire-manager-ron-roenicke-questionable-should-have-done-it-2014-collapse-050415

 

I like the idea of making Melvin a team president and finding a younger GM. I personally think the game has passed him by, but he is still a great baseball man. You can't win with a bunch of players swinging for the fences which is what he tried to do in Texas and here.

 

I don't know that I like that idea. We already have an overly hands-on owner bypassing the GM on a regular basis. I don't think we need another person looming over the next GM's shoulders, especially when that person is the previous long-term GM. The next GM would be nothing but a puppet being pulled in multiple directions with no real power.

[502 to Right]

It's truly remarkable that Doug Melvin doesn't see himself as part of the problem. Clueless.

[jodo23]

 

It is just a number change for a guy currently in MiLB...who cares what happens. That is all I am saying. Guess I am underestimating the importance of uniform numbers.

 

 

Somebody had asked back in #233 about his jersey number, so I thought I'd do a little legwork so others didn't have to. Sorry to jump down your throat. I really need to stop lurking the JSOnline comment threads- it's apparently contagious, like the plague. Won't happen again, sir.

[AZBrewCrew]

And that.

[reillymcshane]

What will do without all the nicknames ending in 'y'?

 

Gomey. Seggy. Brauny. Rammy. I'm sure there's more.

[AZBrewCrew]

What will do without all the nicknames ending in 'y'?

 

Gomey. Seggy. Brauny. Rammy. I'm sure there's more.

It was weird hearing Craig talk about Hector, Ryan and Michael.

[reillymcshane]

What will do without all the nicknames ending in 'y'?

 

Gomey. Seggy. Brauny. Rammy. I'm sure there's more.

It was weird hearing Craig talk about Hector, Ryan and Michael.

I noticed the players are calling Counsell 'Counse'.

[LouisEly]

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

 

I'm doubtful that the answer is zero. I'm sure that "clubhouse chemistry" (i.e. camaraderie, a shared sense of purpose, encouragement, accountability, respect for your peers and leaders) matters in the non-baseball world. It has to make a difference in sports, too.

 

Otherwise, managers are just about game strategy, playing time, etc.

 

 

And in "team" sports like basketball and football I tend to agree. But baseball is largely an individual sport - it's batter vs. the pitcher. It's not like you have to work with your teammates to succeed in that case. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exceptions but to me they don't occur enough as to matter significantly.

In baseball, those "individuals" play 162 games together, double that of basketball and 10x that of football. Morale over the course of a season for a baseball team, I'd argue, is 2x more important than basketball and 10x more important than football.

 

In 2003 the Marlins fired Torborg early in the season after going 16-22, then went 75-49 under that retread McKeon. How is that different?

 

(I could pick apart that argument too and say that both of those sports are about winning individual battles - pro basketball is predominantly a one-on-one sport and football is about beating your man to make a play, but it's not the point of my argument. Yes, those sports are more directly about one person passing to another, but in baseball a team's performance is significantly impacted by the overall defense played, thus making it just as much of a team sport.)

[homer]

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

 

I'm doubtful that the answer is zero. I'm sure that "clubhouse chemistry" (i.e. camaraderie, a shared sense of purpose, encouragement, accountability, respect for your peers and leaders) matters in the non-baseball world. It has to make a difference in sports, too.

 

Otherwise, managers are just about game strategy, playing time, etc.

 

 

And in "team" sports like basketball and football I tend to agree. But baseball is largely an individual sport - it's batter vs. the pitcher. It's not like you have to work with your teammates to succeed in that case. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exceptions but to me they don't occur enough as to matter significantly.

In baseball, those "individuals" play 162 games together, double that of basketball and 10x that of football. Morale over the course of a season for a baseball team, I'd argue, is 2x more important than basketball and 10x more important than football.

 

In 2003 the Marlins fired Torborg early in the season after going 16-22, then went 75-49 under that retread McKeon. How is that different?

 

(I could pick apart that argument too and say that both of those sports are about winning individual battles - pro basketball is predominantly a one-on-one sport and football is about beating your man to make a play, but it's not the point of my argument. Yes, those sports are more directly about one person passing to another, but in baseball a team's performance is significantly impacted by the overall defense played, thus making it just as much of a team sport.)

 

 

For one, we don't know if morale played any role. Maybe the Marlins just started playing better. Secondly, they called up Cabrera after McKeon was fired and he had an OPS of .827 from July 1 to the end of the year. So it's not like they were playing with the same team before and after Torborg was fired.

[Bombers]

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

 

I'm doubtful that the answer is zero. I'm sure that "clubhouse chemistry" (i.e. camaraderie, a shared sense of purpose, encouragement, accountability, respect for your peers and leaders) matters in the non-baseball world. It has to make a difference in sports, too.

 

Otherwise, managers are just about game strategy, playing time, etc.

 

 

And in "team" sports like basketball and football I tend to agree. But baseball is largely an individual sport - it's batter vs. the pitcher. It's not like you have to work with your teammates to succeed in that case. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exceptions but to me they don't occur enough as to matter significantly.

In baseball, those "individuals" play 162 games together, double that of basketball and 10x that of football. Morale over the course of a season for a baseball team, I'd argue, is 2x more important than basketball and 10x more important than football.

 

In 2003 the Marlins fired Torborg early in the season after going 16-22, then went 75-49 under that retread McKeon. How is that different?

 

(I could pick apart that argument too and say that both of those sports are about winning individual battles - pro basketball is predominantly a one-on-one sport and football is about beating your man to make a play, but it's not the point of my argument. Yes, those sports are more directly about one person passing to another, but in baseball a team's performance is significantly impacted by the overall defense played, thus making it just as much of a team sport.)

I don't think # of games equates to importance of morale. I get what your saying but there are more factors. For instance, the Packers practice daily and that factors into their morale. One of the reasons the Packers offensive line is humming a long is because they are cohesive, have been together for a while and have good morale. On the surface it appears they actually are friends with one another. And as a performance coach / manager of others, I cannot stress the importance of having a good relationship with your peers. It is a critical component of running a good team regardless of whether your team is writing code, auditing a company or playing baseball. When the team has good morale, everything just seems to go better.

[LouisEly]

Exactly. People are not robots - they do not perform the same under different conditions. When morale and motivation are low, people don't always perform up to 100% of their capabilities.

 

Ever had a lousy manager that you didn't always give 100% for? Ever have "senioritis" and not give 100% because you were tired of it? Happens all the time, even with professionals.

[homer]

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but just consider the fact that these are elite athletes. They are guys that can most likely roll out of bed hung over and still hit a 95mph fastball.They aren't built like you or me physically or mentally so I don't think all the comparisons to high school team sports or the business world are really apples to apples.