Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[lcbj68c]

No, but it could be because they have better chemistry in the clubhouse with Counsell at the helm, and bro-hugs are a symbol of that.

 

 

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

[trwi7]

And again the Brewers had the 10th most wins of any team in baseball since 2008 going into this season, it was around the 8th most wins at the all star break last year. This team has probably seen its best days as a franchise under Melvin. I think he probably should be replaced soon just because the game is trending younger for GMs but to say this team has somehow failed in recent history is just being ridiculous.

 

Not sure where you got the 10th most wins of any team in baseball since 2008 but it's not true because they're 14th and it's irrelevant anyways considering some of the teams that have more wins than they do in that time frame.

 

Braves

Red Sox

Reds

Tigers

Angels

Dodgers

Yankees

A's

Phillies

Giants

Cardinals

Rays

Rangers

 

All have more wins than the Brewers from 2008 to now. So the Brewers are decidedly mediocre. Yay, I guess.

 

Just like I don't care that the Phillies have more wins than us on your arbitrarily picked year, I don't care that the Nationals have less.

 

All I care about is how the Brewers can become consistent contenders and I've yet to see a defined plan that gives me any confidence that the owner, GM and front office as a whole can make it happen.

[SoupTown]

Funny the mud Doug threw at Ron after firing him. Doug said something like 'since early September, we have only won two games in a row three times; one would think BY ACCIDENT you could win 2 game in a row'

 

So, Doug has gently explained that Ron was such a negative that he was preventing the team from doing what they could do by accident or by not even trying. So with NO manager the Brewers would have had a better Sep and April record than with Ron.

 

I am sure there are no mirrors in Doug's office. Actually Doug likely does have one... 'mirror, mirror on the wall, who will be the last one to fall'. Mirror: 'not you, Doug, not you; you are the fairest GM of them all'

[logan82]

I really don't get the Doug Melvin hate. Do some of you not remember what this franchise was like from 1993-2005? Hopeless. Not saying we should be satisfied, and I'm not saying he should stick around forever, but anyone who thinks he is incompetent must be too young to remember the bad old days. Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

I wouldn't call 2004-2005 hopeless. There was a lot of hope with many good upcoming players. When Melvin took over there was a very good start to a franchise in place. He did well for the first few years but has depleted the talent in the franchise over time.

[Invader3K]

Ken Rosenthal with a good article about the managerial change, including some quotes from Melvin and talk of a possible "succession plan" for Doug Melvin to step down from GM duties: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-fire-manager-ron-roenicke-questionable-should-have-done-it-2014-collapse-050415

[torts]

the more I think of it, this is easily the most secure hire they could make. Craig isnt going to leave Milwaukee for another franchise, this was about as solid of a hire that they could make, let alone in season. It wont be an issue in the off-season, they can just focus on re-tooling or doing whatevers necessary to help Craig move the team forward.

[Eye Black]

...what exactly makes Joe Maddon so close to perfect for you?

Good question, I guess saying any coach is close to "perfect" is probably a set-up for criticism so I will just say I think Joe Maddon is a very good baseball mind and teacher. Maddon's early Rays teams lost nearly 200 games in two seasons, followed by winning more than 90 games in 5 of his past 7 seasons. He also maintained success with a fair amount of roster turnover from year-to-year. I have no idea what percentage of those wins can be attributed to Maddon as I typically tend to think a manager has only a very small influence over wins and losses. I will say that in my opinion Joe Maddon has many of the traits that I believe help make the grind of a baseball season a little less monotonous. Some of these things are impossible to quantify, but here are some attributes I appreciate in Maddon:

 

- He does not get set into any particular line of thinking (i.e. player X must be a number 4 hitter), and he is constantly adjusting his line-ups and defensive shift strategies

- He fosters team activities as a way to strengthen camaraderie.

- He understands that pitching is paramount to anything else that happens on the baseball field.

- He has years of experience, but seems to embrace learning new or evolving concepts.

- He isn't afraid to stand up for his players or team publicly (or on social media)

- His players seemingly both like him and respect him

- He is quirky, witty, and fun.

 

Those are some of the things I believe make Maddon a good baseball coach and mentor of young people. I think he has the type of personality and managerial style that transcends some of the potentially divisive issues in a clubhouse such as egos, diverse backgrounds and beliefs, language barriers, etc. He seems like the kind of guy that connects well with all of the players on the roster regardless of their levels of talent and experience.

[Pugger]

Counsell managed to accumulate 22.3 bWAR (17.7 fWAR) in his career. Over 15 years, that's not a huge amount - but it's nothing to sneeze at. He played good defense, was a solid baserunner and took almost as many walks (10.7% walk rate) as he had strike outs. Defense, baserunning, plate discipline - those are all things this club could use.

 

Yea, i don't get some saying they hated him as a hitter. Counsell had a higher walk rate than Braun has even though Craig had zero power. I'd love for more Brewer hitters to have a similar approach at the plate. Swing at strikes, take balls. Work the count, don't let pitchers get you out by swinging at the pitches they want you to swing at.

 

I like the hire because pretty much whenever i've hear Counsell speak, he strikes me as an intelligent guy. I see him being willing to mix sabermetric ideas with needed leadership qualities.

 

If our new manager can get the players to approach hitting like this that would be a big step in the right direction.

[JimH5]

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

 

I'm doubtful that the answer is zero. I'm sure that "clubhouse chemistry" (i.e. camaraderie, a shared sense of purpose, encouragement, accountability, respect for your peers and leaders) matters in the non-baseball world. It has to make a difference in sports, too.

 

Otherwise, managers are just about game strategy, playing time, etc.

[homer]

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

 

0. It's a fun concept for fans to enjoy, but it's not tangible. This team doesn't hit well and certainly doesn't situationally hit well. Until that changes, no amount of chemistry in the clubhouse will change that.

 

I'm doubtful that the answer is zero. I'm sure that "clubhouse chemistry" (i.e. camaraderie, a shared sense of purpose, encouragement, accountability, respect for your peers and leaders) matters in the non-baseball world. It has to make a difference in sports, too.

 

Otherwise, managers are just about game strategy, playing time, etc.

 

 

And in "team" sports like basketball and football I tend to agree. But baseball is largely an individual sport - it's batter vs. the pitcher. It's not like you have to work with your teammates to succeed in that case. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exceptions but to me they don't occur enough as to matter significantly.

[Baldkin]

...what exactly makes Joe Maddon so close to perfect for you?

Good question, I guess saying any coach is close to "perfect" is probably a set-up for criticism so I will just say I think Joe Maddon is a very good baseball mind and teacher. Maddon's early Rays teams lost nearly 200 games in two seasons, followed by winning more than 90 games in 5 of his past 7 seasons. He also maintained success with a fair amount of roster turnover from year-to-year. I have no idea what percentage of those wins can be attributed to Maddon as I typically tend to think a manager has only a very small influence over wins and losses. I will say that in my opinion Joe Maddon has many of the traits that I believe help make the grind of a baseball season a little less monotonous. Some of these things are impossible to quantify, but here are some attributes I appreciate in Maddon:

 

- He does not get set into any particular line of thinking (i.e. player X must be a number 4 hitter), and he is constantly adjusting his line-ups and defensive shift strategies

- He fosters team activities as a way to strengthen camaraderie.

- He understands that pitching is paramount to anything else that happens on the baseball field.

- He has years of experience, but seems to embrace learning new or evolving concepts.

- He isn't afraid to stand up for his players or team publicly (or on social media)

- His players seemingly both like him and respect him

- He is quirky, witty, and fun.

 

Those are some of the things I believe make Maddon a good baseball coach and mentor of young people. I think he has the type of personality and managerial style that transcends some of the potentially divisive issues in a clubhouse such as egos, diverse backgrounds and beliefs, language barriers, etc. He seems like the kind of guy that connects well with all of the players on the roster regardless of their levels of talent and experience.

 

And while he does that, he also explains these expectations and communicates them to his players. It's also an organizational philosophy so the players know of these expectations all through the minor leagues -- similar to the A's and the Cardinals. Funny how that works.

 

When you have guys preaching one thing in the minors (walks, working the count) and something else in the majors (swing, swing, swing and swing s'more!) then it's no wonder players struggle when forced to change their approach.

[fondybrewfan]

I see the dumb base running mistakes continued after RR got fired; I guess those sort of things happen no matter what manager we have. Go figure. I never would have guessed.

[Pugger]

Ken Rosenthal with a good article about the managerial change, including some quotes from Melvin and talk of a possible "succession plan" for Doug Melvin to step down from GM duties: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-fire-manager-ron-roenicke-questionable-should-have-done-it-2014-collapse-050415

 

I've said this in many threads here and on other Brewer forums - I have no clue why RR wasn't fired after that collapse last season. I can't think of many other clubs who would have brought Ron back for another season after that disaster.

[Pugger]

I see the dumb base running mistakes continued after RR got fired; I guess those sort of things happen no matter what manager we have. Go figure. I never would have guessed.

 

Those bad habits might take a while to break.

[jodo23]

After a few hours without a uniform number assigned to Counsell on the Brewers website, they've finally updated the page. Looks like he's got his #30 back.

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/team/coaches.jsp?c_id=mil

 

Thornburg is still listed as #30 on the 40-man roster, so I'm not what's going to happen there.

 

He will be issued a new number...what do you expect?

 

Wow, you're smart for figuring that out! Here's a cookie!

 

...I'm speaking more of what number he'll be given, as his number hadn't been changed yet.

 

But, good job! Atta boy!

[dhoffman19]

The Brewers may play better under Counsell but it won't be because of bro hugs.

 

Never underestimate the power of a bro hug.

[SoupTown]

I am very interested to see what happens next time a Cardinal or Brave pitcher plunks Gomez or Segura or any of the guys. It will take 1/2 an inning and we will know, I am sure, that Counsell has his players backs. And so will MLB. And perhaps we can end this 'Brewers being one of the must plunked teams whilst doing amongst the least plunkings'. This idea that we are too nice to play hard is stupid.

[dhoffman19]

I really don't get the Doug Melvin hate. Do some of you not remember what this franchise was like from 1993-2005? Hopeless. Not saying we should be satisfied, and I'm not saying he should stick around forever, but anyone who thinks he is incompetent must be too young to remember the bad old days. Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

I wouldn't call 2004-2005 hopeless. There was a lot of hope with many good upcoming players. When Melvin took over there was a very good start to a franchise in place. He did well for the first few years but has depleted the talent in the franchise over time.

 

 

Sorry I was wrong on my dates. DM took over at the end of 2002, a 56-win year, which to me equals hopeless. About the only positives at that time were Ben Sheets, Richie Sexson, and Miller Park (although they had drafted Fielder by then). DM did a great job turning around that roster.

[patrickgpe]

I hope the Brewers lose every game remaining so both Doug Melvin and Craig Counsell get fired. What a joke. If they let Doug Melvin run the rebuild I'm done as a Brewer fan.

 

this is a little over the top. I would have preferred to name Counsell the interim manager and if Melvin is gone the new GM can decide if he should be retained or he can bring in his guy. I also would like the brewers to get a top 5 pick. I hope Counsell shows that he would be a good manager over the next 5 months; results not withstanding.

[patrickgpe]

Ken Rosenthal with a good article about the managerial change, including some quotes from Melvin and talk of a possible "succession plan" for Doug Melvin to step down from GM duties: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-fire-manager-ron-roenicke-questionable-should-have-done-it-2014-collapse-050415

 

I like the idea of making Melvin a team president and finding a younger GM. I personally think the game has passed him by, but he is still a great baseball man. You can't win with a bunch of players swinging for the fences which is what he tried to do in Texas and here.

[reillymcshane]

Ken Rosenthal with a good article about the managerial change, including some quotes from Melvin and talk of a possible "succession plan" for Doug Melvin to step down from GM duties: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-fire-manager-ron-roenicke-questionable-should-have-done-it-2014-collapse-050415

 

I've said this in many threads here and on other Brewer forums - I have no clue why RR wasn't fired after that collapse last season. I can't think of many other clubs who would have brought Ron back for another season after that disaster.

This was an interesting article, and yes, after reading it, you wonder why the club just didn't make a change after last year. When a baseball person says things like 'There's a lot of quite on that team" - there's something wrong (and this was last year - not now).

 

Ron's style just didn't play out. Maybe it worked okay when you had some people in the clubhouse keeping guys in line and kicking butts when needed, but that just didn't appear to be happening. It's nothing against the veteran players - guys can lead in different ways. But the manager needs to be a leader when there's a vacuum. He needs to adapt. The article basically says he never changed during his time.

 

Oh well, RRR is gone. Time to move on.

[TURBO]

I see the dumb base running mistakes continued after RR got fired; I guess those sort of things happen no matter what manager we have. Go figure. I never would have guessed.

 

So you thought that the first game with a new manager, this would magically stop? When it has been ingrained in them for years, it isn't going to change that quickly.

 

Go figure...

[MrTPlush]

After a few hours without a uniform number assigned to Counsell on the Brewers website, they've finally updated the page. Looks like he's got his #30 back.

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/team/coaches.jsp?c_id=mil

 

Thornburg is still listed as #30 on the 40-man roster, so I'm not what's going to happen there.

 

He will be issued a new number...what do you expect?

 

Wow, you're smart for figuring that out! Here's a cookie!

 

...I'm speaking more of what number he'll be given, as his number hadn't been changed yet.

 

But, good job! Atta boy!

 

It is just a number change for a guy currently in MiLB...who cares what happens. That is all I am saying. Guess I am underestimating the importance of uniform numbers.

[stoutdude04]

 

Wow, you're smart for figuring that out! Here's a cookie!

 

...I'm speaking more of what number he'll be given, as his number hadn't been changed yet.

 

But, good job! Atta boy!

 

What is happening to this site? The amount of rude posts appears to have tripled with a snap of a finger. Wow.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Seems like a cycle with managers...have a players manager, they get soft, bring in hard ass, players revolt, bring in players manager...wash, rinse, repeat...