Ron Roenicke relieved of managerial duties (Craig Counsell named new manager, 3 yr contract)

[Ennder]

I'm a bit confused here. If you look at FA spending by team since 2010 the Brewers are very low in the rankings. Since when did we sign spend a lot on FA's? Lohse in particular is one FA who has actually been worth his deal so far so he isn't even a good example of a bad deal.

[reillymcshane]

I'm a bit confused here. If you look at FA spending by team since 2010 the Brewers are very low in the rankings. Since when did we sign spend a lot on FA's? Lohse in particular is one FA who has actually been worth his deal so far so he isn't even a good example of a bad deal.

K-Rod, Cotts, Garza, Lohse, A-Ram - maybe I'm missing someone. But that's about $44M. On a payroll of about $105M, that's about 40% of our payroll. Maybe it's not out of line with other clubs - but it's a pretty big chunk.

[MrTPlush]

After a few hours without a uniform number assigned to Counsell on the Brewers website, they've finally updated the page. Looks like he's got his #30 back.

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/team/coaches.jsp?c_id=mil

 

Thornburg is still listed as #30 on the 40-man roster, so I'm not what's going to happen there.

 

He will be issued a new number...what do you expect?

[miggs721]

Pretty simple what the plan is here, Ray Montgomery is being groomed as GM in the near future, he will keep Counsell around, with Melvin jumping to some executive type role, thats how I see it at least

[MrTPlush]

Pretty simple what the plan is here, Ray Montgomery is being groomed as GM in the near future, he will keep Counsell around, with Melvin jumping to some executive type role, thats how I see it at least

 

Doug Melvin will almost surely retire if he isn't the GM.

[logan82]

I'm a bit confused here. If you look at FA spending by team since 2010 the Brewers are very low in the rankings. Since when did we sign spend a lot on FA's? Lohse in particular is one FA who has actually been worth his deal so far so he isn't even a good example of a bad deal.

Worth the money sure. Worth the pick, not even close.

[502 to Right]

I hope the Brewers lose every game remaining so both Doug Melvin and Craig Counsell get fired. What a joke. If they let Doug Melvin run the rebuild I'm done as a Brewer fan.

[TheCrew07]

The Brewers have turned over the roster to younger guys. If Davis, Gennett and Segura were all studs Melvin would look like a genius.

 

I've never meant getting younger for the sake of getting younger, the idea was more along the lines of replacing impact players with younger versions of those same guys. Davis and Gennett are place holder type players, they are extremely valuable in the fact that they can competently hold down a spot on the roster for cheap, but they aren't anyone you build around.

 

Even those of us who love to follow prospects understand that they will and do regularly fail, however that isn't the argument for avoiding a draft and develop philosophy, it's quite the opposite. You need a greater depth of prospects so that when a Mike Jones and Mark Rogers blows out their arm there are still other legitimate players in the pipeline. The Brewers literally traded away an entire wave of prospects to the point the cupboard was completely bare, that was the winter of the Greinke and Marcum trades, there have only been 2 trades to replenish the farm system since. I'm not sure I like the TX trade, I haven't made up my mind yet, but we do have SS depth as an organization now so maybe one or two of those guys will get flipped for a position of greater need down the road and I'll feel differently. Or Diplan could turn into a MLB starter and I'll be thrilled, but we're 4-5 years away on that. I liked the LAA trade for what it was, I still like Segura, I never thought much of Hellweg, and I still think Pena has an MLB future.

 

My core issue has remained the same for a long time, the lack of young impact pitching, and it's never been addressed. This continual rotation of managers at coaches at the big league level... it's been the same thing Melvin has done with the MLB roster. Each move addresses a deficiency of the previous team or manager, it's just whack-a-mole... the only guy I truly despised was Macha because he was awful with young players and I firmly believe if the Brewers will ever sustain 90 win seasons we need a coaching staff that's patient with and willing to teach and coach the hell out of young players.

 

Is CC going to be that kind of guy? I don't know... I don't know that my perfect manager actually exists. I do believe the manager can impact clubhouse chemistry and that will have an effect on the field, but I think that even the best coaches/mangers will struggle when a team has too many selfish/self absorbed athletes. In my coaching experience all of our best teams had that special kind of camaraderie, they did everything together and genuinely enjoyed each other. We also had teams made of up very talented but selfish kids and they always played under their true talent level like many posters believe the Brewers have. So if the prevailing opinion is that the players were underperforming across the board I have a hard time believing RR created toxic chemistry in the clubhouse, nothing I've read suggests he's that kind of guy. I don't have a problem believing he didn't do a great job managing the situation, but the whole Braun debacle is unique. Almost everyone stood up for him and got burned, even athletes outside the team like Rodgers, we'll never know how many of the guys were able to rekindle a close friendship with Ryan, everyone is going react different to betrayal. Not that it's all Braun's fault, I don't mean to suggest that at all, but the Brewers have been plagued by the same issues long before RR came around, so I think roster construction is equally to blame. It's just that there were other extenuating circumstances which made the job harder than it otherwise would have been.

[502 to Right]

Has anyone asked Doug Melvin what makes him think Craig Counsell will be any better than the last 4 managers he's hired?

 

Doug Melvin needs to take a good look in the mirror. And then fire himself.

[dhoffman19]

I really don't get the Doug Melvin hate. Do some of you not remember what this franchise was like from 1993-2005? Hopeless. Not saying we should be satisfied, and I'm not saying he should stick around forever, but anyone who thinks he is incompetent must be too young to remember the bad old days. Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

[SoupTown]

My hope is we can have a manager that treats the players like men. If we have a bunch of weak stomached babies for players - who cant perform because of this slight or that niggle or this offense - then the manager need not call them out - he just lets them go. Davis and Gennett are good examples right now. They either start performing, or you put them back to AAA

 

This team, for too long, gives players months... even years... to turn it around. There is never, for years, any accountability. That is why I often call Milwaukee a good retirement village. You get your cash and dont get stressed.

 

I dont want a screaming manager, but I want one who will recycle talent as soon as he sees there is a deficiency. I want new players over and over until somebody proves they can play baseball. And if ALL the players we have cant play baseball... well, that is on Doug and Mark. The manager should not try to candy coat or cover or protect. If he gets crap players from the owner and GM, he can simply say 'give me new crap... eventually you will, like a monkey throwing darts at a board, find some talent'.

 

I am tired of our players being immune. And I am tired of seeing no future guys out on the field. In fact, I am nearly OVER this organisation. 45 years is a long time to follow. And the vast majority of these years the system is run by incompetents. It gets very, very taxing on a fan.

 

New manager. I sure hope he will treat the players like they are men. Imagine have a bunch of babies accidentally get on a hot streak - or lead the division for 150 days. They will not have the nerve to finish the job. The manager's ONE best move can be to make the players accountable ONE by ONE. Not in a masochistic way, but in a 'sorry, you have not performed, you are out - based on performance, way'

 

You do realize this is exactly what Ken Macha did, and the clubhouse hated him a result and he was fired as a result of that, right?

 

hmmm, fire the manager because the players dont like being held accountable; I know more now re the problems of this organisaion; and I know more now why the players dont have the ticker to play through tough situations and streaks; and I know now the highest priority of the Brewer organisation is the keep the players happy, unstressed, unmotivated, unaccountable; at least I know now

[502 to Right]

I really don't get the Doug Melvin hate. Do some of you not remember what this franchise was like from 1993-2005? Hopeless. Not saying we should be satisfied, and I'm not saying he should stick around forever, but anyone who thinks he is incompetent must be too young to remember the bad old days. Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

 

 

I'm 44. I know bad baseball. Doug Melvin is not the worst GM the Brewers could have but I've seen too many clubs build winners with less payroll than the Brewers to sit still and watch this guy continue to run the show. The game has passed him by

[TURBO]

I'm a bit confused here. If you look at FA spending by team since 2010 the Brewers are very low in the rankings. Since when did we sign spend a lot on FA's? Lohse in particular is one FA who has actually been worth his deal so far so he isn't even a good example of a bad deal.

 

It isn't the money that bothers most fans, it's the loss of the 1st round pick... A team like ours just can't afford to lose that high of a draft pick, it made no sense, and still doesn't.

[LouisEly]

Based off of what Doug and Craig said it sounds like there were some issues behind the scenes with Ron.

 

This makes more sense. This is one aspect the advanced metrics crowd rarely gets; the personalities and chemistry of a bunch of alpha males in a locker room, let alone factoring in losing.

You ever see RRR bro-hugging his players after a big win like Counsell is doing now? I haven't either.

 

I think that is one of those little things that speaks a whole lot.

[homer]

The Brewers may play better under Counsell but it won't be because of bro hugs.

[LouisEly]

No, but it could be because they have better chemistry in the clubhouse with Counsell at the helm, and bro-hugs are a symbol of that.

[dhoffman19]

I really don't get the Doug Melvin hate. Do some of you not remember what this franchise was like from 1993-2005? Hopeless. Not saying we should be satisfied, and I'm not saying he should stick around forever, but anyone who thinks he is incompetent must be too young to remember the bad old days. Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

 

 

I'm 44. I know bad baseball. Doug Melvin is not the worst GM the Brewers could have but I've seen too many clubs build winners with less payroll than the Brewers to sit still and watch this guy continue to run the show. The game has passed him by

 

What specifically has "passed him by?" In other words, what cutting edge things are these other successful teams with lower payroll doing that he is not?

 

Bottom line to me is Melvin is an experienced GM who has built playoff teams with a relatively small payroll, and he actually wants to be here. I'm just saying there aren't many guys with those qualities, so I'm not too quick to run him out of town.

[homer]

No, but it could be because they have better chemistry in the clubhouse with Counsell at the helm, and bro-hugs are a symbol of that.

 

 

How many extra wins do you think good chemistry gives a team over the course of a season?

[Moose]

I don't know if I can equate bro-hugs or chemistry into a certain number of wins. (I don't think they've figured that out in sabermetrics yet) But, in my experience as a coach (high school level) I've seen all different types of coaches - from the "laid back players coach" to the "fire and brimstone- serious as a heart attack" coach. Best playing teams I've seen, teams that played and won as a team had a coach that fostered a sense of chemistry - made the game fun (something Counsell talked about in his presser) and got the best out of players, even if they didn't have the best talent. I know, I'm not an expert or a professional- just my $.02

[Eye Black]

Is CC going to be that kind of guy? I don't know... I don't know that my perfect manager actually exists.

Joe Maddon? If he isn't the perfect manager, he's pretty darn close.

[DHonks]

Eye Black, last I checked, Roenicke had virtually the same winning percentage as Maddon

[TooLiveBrew]

Eye Black, last I checked, Roenicke had virtually the same winning percentage as Maddon

Not everyone uses W-L as the way they evaluate a manager, since a manager can make a good move & not have it work out. Same logic that would be used to determine that a hard hit line drive that happened to be hit right at a fielder was still good contact.

 

Additionally, Maddon's record has been compiled over a significantly longer stretch, & (mostly) in the toughest division in baseball year in & year out. It's disingenuous to suggest that you can accurately compare Roenicke & Maddon simply based on their managerial W-L records.

[MNBrew]

Is CC going to be that kind of guy? I don't know... I don't know that my perfect manager actually exists.

Joe Maddon? If he isn't the perfect manager, he's pretty darn close.

Joe Maddon was not a winning manager when TB's talent level wasn't good enough to win. Same holds true with any manager. Other than the fact that both GMs under whom he's managed are high-end advanced metrics guys (which points to the front office, not the manager's office), what exactly makes Joe Maddon so close to perfect for you?

 

It's not that I don't like him as a manager. But I'd still take Bruce Bochy over Maddon b/c somehow his teams find ways to win the World Series when more highly-talented rosters fall by the wayside or don't even make the playoffs. . . . Lightning can strike once, a second time could still involve quite a lot of luck, but 3 times in 5 years with a steadily evolving roster and plenty of older vets is hardly luck.

[Ennder]

Has anyone asked Doug Melvin what makes him think Craig Counsell will be any better than the last 4 managers he's hired?

 

Doug Melvin needs to take a good look in the mirror. And then fire himself.

 

 

And again the Brewers had the 10th most wins of any team in baseball since 2008 going into this season, it was around the 8th most wins at the all star break last year. This team has probably seen its best days as a franchise under Melvin. I think he probably should be replaced soon just because the game is trending younger for GMs but to say this team has somehow failed in recent history is just being ridiculous.

[MNBrew]

The prospect of Counsell as manager makes me wish they'd not fired Roenicke. I'm totally serious. I can't stand Counsell as a ballplayer and can't stand the love for him on this site. All I think about re: him is the new version of A.J. Hinch as D-Backs manager, which was nothing short of an insanely bad choice. I see more Bart Starr (loved former player) or A.J. Hinch (supposedly smart front office guy) than truly shrewd move here.

 

I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

 

The comments about not hiring a re-tread are laughable. Other than Macha, since the mid '80s (i.e., since Bamberger Pt. 2 ended), we've only hired managers with no MLB managerial experience, and the cumulative results of hiring such a high % of newbies proves nothing about it being a good idea.

Sorry if it's weird to quote myself, but I kept thinking about this earlier thing I posted as today wore on and one thing's worth clarifying:

 

Now that they've hired Counsell, whether I like the move initially or not doesn't matter because I'm the die-hard Brewers fan that I am and I want the team to win. Therefore, as with any new manager we've ever hired, I hope it turns out to be a master stroke and that he turns out to be the best manager we've had with the best records and success over time to bear that out.