Trade with the Mets

[craigharmann]

If it was me, I'd trade Ramirez for the best I can get and look to move Parra, Gomez, Lohse, K-Rod, Broxton, Cotts, Lind and Garza and somewhere in there get the best third base prospect I can out of that as well as the best first base prospect I can get. Then I see what I've got in the younger pitchers, younger position players and start the evaluation process now.

[Roderick]

Taking on any veteran in a trade is pretty dumb for the Brewers.

 

Well pretty much anyone is less veteran than ARam. So if we can go younger and cheaper at any point, go for it. Is there any reason the Brewers can't go ahead and trade the guy they would supposedly pick up? Do you have to keep for 30 days or anything like that?

[brwrsfan]

Taking on any veteran in a trade is pretty dumb for the Brewers.

 

Well pretty much anyone is less veteran than ARam. So if we can go younger and cheaper at any point, go for it. Is there any reason the Brewers can't go ahead and trade the guy they would supposedly pick up? Do you have to keep for 30 days or anything like that?

 

Ha. Good point.

 

Unless something has changed, there is no rule on trading anyone we get back. I remember the Marlins having Mike Piazza for like a week a few years back. There's a rule about players drafted this year or players signed as FA this year (but I think this has passed already or is about to).

[Mudville9]

DM should be looking for some sort of three team deal. ARam to Mets, Neise to Team X, Player X to Brewers. Probably won't net us anyone amazing, but even an A baller with potential is better than having ARam on the team taking up cash and space. I love ARam, but we need to get what we can for him.

[brewcrewdue80]

Taking on any veteran in a trade is pretty dumb for the Brewers. This is the time to really see what some of the young guys can do - Jungmann, Cravy, etc.

 

I'd much rather take a prospect of ANY kind for Ramirez than taking back someone like Gee. Other than salary savings, he isn't bringing much back to us and he's blocking starts from the younger guys when/if we clear a rotation spot for them. Unless we think we can get more for Gee at the trade deadline than we could get for Ramirez right now?

 

As far as 3b goes, let Rogers/Gomez play there on a regular basis - what's the worst that could happen? They're terrible and we stay as the worst team in MLB??

 

 

It's highly doubtful Ramirez would bring back the type of prospect that projects beyond a fringe major league career so getting a veteran back with some usefulness isn't going to mess up any rebuilding. I'm not sold that Gee has any value, but Niese certainly does and as for blocking younger guys, well Niese would allow them to deal Fiers or Garza, and if Garza got dealt, Niese at $9 million would be their most expensive starter going into 2016, hardly a sign they are "all in" for 2016. In fact in the long run, a guy like Niese would net a much more viable prospect than a 3 month rental of Ramirez would.

 

You're probably right that we could trade Niese down the road. I'd rather take him than Gee. Even getting a fringe prospect back would be fine with me just to save the salary money, but that's just my thoughts I guess.

 

But as far as needing to take a pitcher back to trade Garza or Fiers - I tend to disagree. Between Jungmann, Cravy, Wagner and Thornburg, I think we have plenty of young guys that could fill the rotation spots the rest of the season. I'd rather see them get some experience and see what they have the rest of this season. Just my opinion I guess.

 

Gotta remember the team plays 162 games and includes games in September. Thornburg, Jungmann, Wagner may be able to pitch in to and through Sept, but they'll be doing so on fumes pitching all their innings as Career firsts beyond 150. Cravy doesn't have over 100IP in his professional profile, he's likely going to be put in the Bullpen in due time to keep his innings down.

 

If indeed there were talks to trade Garza or Fiers or even Peralta, taking on Gee would provide the depth to make it through the season. Lohse stands to be a waiver candidate if he's not traded, immediately after the deadline just to attempt to save some money if picked up.

 

Niese to me is worth more than Ramirez in value. I don't like his contract under the Brewers pitching situation or as a where they stand in competing situation for its duration. Too much money committed for a #4 at best SP. He's going to be shellacked pitching in Miller Park and the NL Central vs pitching at Citi Field and the NLeast's hitting talents. Take on his contract, and that performance, you're waiving him and paying for him to sit at home. At least with Gee you can just non-tender him after the season. You save money getting rid of Ramirez and that's all there is to the deal.

 

The Mets seem set at using Syndergaard and Matz in their plans this year. After them, I don't like a trade of Segura barring they give up some quantity of B type prospects since we can't get any B+toA- grades without including those two.

 

Gomez to the Mets...They're paying too much money to Granderson/Cuddyer to make that trade happen. One would immediately go to the bench. Looks bad to me if it's Cuddyer after signing him losing the draft pick this year doing so. And Granderson's making too much.

 

Just no Blockbuster to get done under the circumstances. Gee for Ramirez and saving 3-6million is a plus at this point. Ramirez is at .648OPS being paid 14million on the season and retiring. It's not a good trade chip for anybody.

[monty57]

Just no Blockbuster to get done under the circumstances. Gee for Ramirez and saving 3-6million is a plus at this point. Ramirez is at .648OPS being paid 14million on the season and retiring. It's not a good trade chip for anybody.

 

Yep. Ramirez has little value. Saving sine money is about the best we can hope for. Good point on Gee helping get through the season without putting out young guys well beyond their IP limits. Sounds kind of like the Mets want them to take Neise to get rid of the bigger financial obligation, and if it's Ramirez for Gee, the Brewers would have to kick in some money to help even out the money owed. I don't know that it's worth it if we don't save a few million. Might as well just let Ramirez play out his time in Milwaukee and get some goodwill while he does his farewell tour through the NL Central.

[logan82]

I don't think the Mets would trade for Segura. Flores looks pretty similar and is 3 years younger.

[superfly]

If the Mets really want to trade Niese for Ramirez straight up, we should pull the trigger before they change their mind. I get that folks think we can't have a SINGLE "veteran" (is Niese really a veteran?) on this team, but SOMEBODY has to play. Niese would be our new Kyle Lohse for the next 1.5+ seasons or we can flip him at the deadline next year for something else.

[TheCrew07]

Taking on any veteran in a trade is pretty dumb for the Brewers. This is the time to really see what some of the young guys can do - Jungmann, Cravy, etc.

 

/\ This.

 

Do we really need another mid or back of the rotation piece back in a trade? I get the cost savings part, but cripes why not go after someone like Casey Meisner and hope that you can help him develop decent off speed stuff? Or Rob Whalen? What about a guy I'd really like to take a shot at in Michael Fulmer?

 

Why does it have to be a MLB or MLB ready pitcher of the type we already have? Why add more of the same? I find the idea completely disheartening, and I to JB12's point I could care less about handedness in this case and I've been harping on LHP for years.

 

I don't expect to get top 10 organizational talent for Ramirez at this stage of his career but at the same time why waste time acquiring a piece the Brewers don't really need? Unless we're trading someone with tremendous value shouldn't the idea be to peg players at AA or lower who will move up with our next wave of prospects? What good are more average to below average players going to do the big league roster in 2016?

[splitterpfj]

1. Teams think there may be something up with Niese's shoulder.

2. Aramis is due 9M the rest of the way, Niese is due 9M, next year, adding him saves nothing.

[TheCrew07]

If the Mets really want to trade Niese for Ramirez straight up, we should pull the trigger before they change their mind. I get that folks think we can't have a SINGLE "veteran" (is Niese really a veteran?) on this team, but SOMEBODY has to play. Niese would be our new Kyle Lohse for the next 1.5+ seasons or we can flip him at the deadline next year for something else.

 

So Peralta, Cravy, Wagner, Fiers, Nelson, Jungmann, Thornburg, and Garza aren't "SOMEBODY"? We have plenty of mid to back of the rotation pitching talent already, as I said in my previous post why target more of the same? You could even throw names like Brooks Hall, Hobbs Johnson, and Jorge Lopez into the mix for spot starts next season.

 

We also have plenty of additional relief options for 2016 in Ariel Pena, David Goforth, Damien Magnifico, and Austin Ross just off the top of my head. Johnny Hellweg just returned, hopefully the Brewers get smart and use him exclusively in relief as well. Will all those guys be worth something at MLB? I doubt more than 2 of them will be credible relievers, but that's really all the team needs.

[MrTPlush]

I don't think the Mets would trade for Segura. Flores looks pretty similar and is 3 years younger.

 

From what I have heard from Met's fans and experts Flores should not be anywhere near SS. He is 100% a third baseman put at SS.

[LouisEly]

DM should be looking for some sort of three team deal. ARam to Mets, Neise to Team X, Player X to Brewers. Probably won't net us anyone amazing, but even an A baller with potential is better than having ARam on the team taking up cash and space. I love ARam, but we need to get what we can for him.

The Astros, Royals, and Rangers could use another starter. Brewers might have to pick up some salary with the Astros or Royals, but I could see a 3-team deal with them.

 

Ramirez is a notorious slow-starter; for his career, his highest OPS months have been June, July, and August so I'd be inclined to give him a few more weeks to boost his value. He could get hurt, but so could a 3B on another team creating more demand for his services.

[nate82]

 

I don't expect to get top 10 organizational talent for Ramirez at this stage of his career but at the same time why waste time acquiring a piece the Brewers don't really need? Unless we're trading someone with tremendous value shouldn't the idea be to peg players at AA or lower who will move up with our next wave of prospects? What good are more average to below average players going to do the big league roster in 2016?

 

Because the Mets are not going to trade away any young player for Ramirez. The Mets are looking to get Matz into the rotation this year. The best way to do this is to trade Niese or Gee for someone. It is going to come down to the Brewers or the A's on which one is going to bite on either Niese or Gee for Ramirez or Zobrist.

 

It is either take Niese or Gee or get nothing for Ramirez. I don't see another team out there that will take on Ramirez. It is nice and all to say you want younger players but you can't trade with yourself that is not how this works. The other GM is going to have to agree with this and I just don't see the Mets agreeing to it.

[TheCrew07]

So then why make a deal? If you aren't getting salary relief and aren't really getting anything that has any potential to make a difference, why make the trade? For the sake of doing something?

 

I'll say straight up I don't care about salary relief at all, I'm interested in increasing the talent base, that's always been my focus. If that's not possible then I'd rather ride out Ramirez and Lohse through the end of the year then move on. It makes no sense to me to acquire pieces that are meaningless long-term, it never has.

[jerichoholicninja]

Niese and Gee both have to have more value that Ramirez based on age alone. If Ramirez gets either of those guys you have to do it. Package whichever one you get with Gomez or Krod to sweeten a deal and you've turned Ramirez into something that he alone couldn't get.

[nate82]

So then why make a deal? If you aren't getting salary relief and aren't really getting anything that has any potential to make a difference, why make the trade? For the sake of doing something?

 

I'll say straight up I don't care about salary relief at all, I'm interested in increasing the talent base, that's always been my focus. If that's not possible then I'd rather ride out Ramirez and Lohse through the end of the year then move on. It makes no sense to me to acquire pieces that are meaningless long-term, it never has.

 

If the Brewers could get Niese the Brewers could possibly trade him in the off season. If the Mets are that dumb to give up on Niese for Ramirez it wouldn't be a bad idea to take him on this year and then trade him in the off season but I don't think Melvin would do that.

 

There would be some salary relief with trading Ramirez for Niese. A 3-team deal really would be an ideal situation in trading Ramirez in my opinion. Send Ramirez to the Mets for Niese and then send Niese to the Royals for someone like Cheslor Cuthbert 1B/3B or Hunter Dozier 3B. I would even include money to the Royals if it means the Royals would give up Ryan O'Hearn and Cuthbert for Niese and $3-5m.

 

Niese for Cuthbert wouldn't be a bad trade as Cuthbert could play 1B or 3B I am not sure on his defense at 3B.

[brwrsfan]

 

I don't expect to get top 10 organizational talent for Ramirez at this stage of his career but at the same time why waste time acquiring a piece the Brewers don't really need? Unless we're trading someone with tremendous value shouldn't the idea be to peg players at AA or lower who will move up with our next wave of prospects? What good are more average to below average players going to do the big league roster in 2016?

 

Because the Mets are not going to trade away any young player for Ramirez. The Mets are looking to get Matz into the rotation this year. The best way to do this is to trade Niese or Gee for someone. It is going to come down to the Brewers or the A's on which one is going to bite on either Niese or Gee for Ramirez or Zobrist.

 

It is either take Niese or Gee or get nothing for Ramirez. I don't see another team out there that will take on Ramirez. It is nice and all to say you want younger players but you can't trade with yourself that is not how this works. The other GM is going to have to agree with this and I just don't see the Mets agreeing to it.

 

It's June 11th. It's a little early to say that this is all we could get for Ramirez. Maybe that's the only offer we have right now, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get anything at all between now and the trade deadline (or as a waiver claim in August). The longer the year goes on, the cheaper Ramirez becomes and it becomes more feasible for some teams to take him on - plus it's tough for his value to get much lower. If he warms up the next 6 weeks (as he normally does)...it's pretty easy to envision teams wanting him. Not only at third, but any AL team in need of hitting might want him as a DH too. And until the Mets make another move to fix 3b, there's really nothing stopping us from making the same deal near the deadline.

[bill hAll Star]

I'm one that has always fully supported building through the draft and not spending on some of these free agents, but I'd absolutely just take Niese or Gee back. I have my doubts that Aramis restores any sort of trade value and there is also the downside that he gets hurt between now and the deadline.

 

I'm probably assuming too much of a firesale, but right now Cot's has the Brewers at $56 million next year (without some of the options) before some of the guys hit arby. That means probably $70 million when guys have arby factored in.

 

Remove Gomez's salary from that among other things and add Niese and you're around $65-$70. That puts you down around where the Astros and Marlins are as the lowest in baseball. I would still look into dealing Braun and Luc as well which could put you down towards $50 with basically zero guaranteed other than Garza beyond 2016. Sign some Matt Joyce reclamation project contracts for 1 year/$2 million and prepare to deal them at the deadline in 2016. Deal Niese at the 2016 deadline. Call it a day.

[brewcrewdue80]

Taking on any veteran in a trade is pretty dumb for the Brewers. This is the time to really see what some of the young guys can do - Jungmann, Cravy, etc.

 

/\ This.

 

Do we really need another mid or back of the rotation piece back in a trade? I get the cost savings part, but cripes why not go after someone like Casey Meisner and hope that you can help him develop decent off speed stuff? Or Rob Whalen? What about a guy I'd really like to take a shot at in Michael Fulmer?

 

Why does it have to be a MLB or MLB ready pitcher of the type we already have? Why add more of the same? I find the idea completely disheartening, and I to JB12's point I could care less about handedness in this case and I've been harping on LHP for years.

 

I don't expect to get top 10 organizational talent for Ramirez at this stage of his career but at the same time why waste time acquiring a piece the Brewers don't really need? Unless we're trading someone with tremendous value shouldn't the idea be to peg players at AA or lower who will move up with our next wave of prospects? What good are more average to below average players going to do the big league roster in 2016?

 

Yeah, of course I'd rather take in a Minor League player with a better than 50% chance to make a ML roster. But under the circumstances of how much Ramirez is being paid, and to his production, there is 0 reason for a team to even offer up that kind of prospect. He's a salary dump. A very bad one at that. Ramirez comes with an obvious negative value defensively. Old age regression-injury risk and maintaining his bat through the season/+Post-season. All that risk for 63% and less in the season. He's just being paid too much.

 

If I can trade him to save money and actually get a #5 SP for the remainder of the season vs not trading him at all and eating his salary. I'm going to save money for a small market who could use every reason to spend money in any other fashion to help the team. Pay a scout in Latin America vs letting him go to another team. Looking at 3-6million in savings. That's got to be plenty of money to be used wisely, than the stupidity to pay Ramirez his retirement year to suck on a losing...key word, LOSING team. They're going nowhere. Every single resource should be done that sheds money on players who arent returning next season.

[splitterpfj]

Trading Ramirez for Niese actually costs the team money...it COSTS THE TEAM MONEY, it doesn't save anything, because Niese is signed for next year too, guaranteed.

 

Niese is not pitching well, and there are plenty of scouts who think something isn't right with him - they do not trust his shoulder.

 

Ramirez for Niese...please tell me, where is the positive for Milwaukee?

[bill hAll Star]

You can flip Niese later. I'm not one that cares about having a "filler" in the rotation during the lean/rebuilding years, but it pushes off a possible rehab project that you can flip for something better next year. I would expect to not spend any money on external FAs other than a few very cheap reclamation projects anyways and deal away more money.

 

If Niese is really done for the long-term, then yeah, I'd just let Ramirez expire. But as Ramirez's current trade value stands, you're going to get zero out of him. Nobody is going to give up a player in the minors that has any chance of making the majors for Ramirez. You're pushing out the opportunity to get something for the asset at the cost of burning $9 million on an over-the-hill pitcher next year.

 

It's Mark's call. He seems like a guy that will need to have some "stable" vet(s) at the top of his rotation anyways while they rebuild (again, not something I endorse). Is he willing to take a risk of a net of something like $7 million (getting out of Ramirez's money put paying Niese his) to maybe get something more out of this?

 

If your projected payroll next year is $70 million once you deal Gomez, Broxton (buyout), Lind (buyout), and maybe maybe Segura, Luc, or Braun...You have very little committed beyond 2015 other than a few years of Garza and several more of Braun. Taking on salary in a trade just for next year as a risk to create more value becomes an option because the payroll could/would be low 2016-2017 as they rebuild.

 

Now, if Mark wants to pocket the money after going "over-budget" the past few years or thinks that this would be good money to slot into international scouting or coaching salaries, then by all means, go ahead.

[bill hAll Star]

Also, depending on the details of the trade, Aramis has $6 million in deferred payments queued up for 2017 and 2018. If the Mets would just make a straight-up trade, it would essentially cost the Brewers nothing (or they'd save a bit) and other than the Niese buyout if they so choose and still have him, the money would end in 2016 with him.

 

And then, again, you'd have Niese as a trade asset next year instead of just letting Aramis hang around and then having to pay him $3 million in 2017 and $3 million in 2018.

 

I would present these as (realistic) options:

 

A: Very, very small chance - A team is willing to take Aramis at full price and offer a flawed prospect.

B: A team is willing to give a flawed prospect up, but the Brewers pay most of his contract.

C: Another team sends a veteran (Niese) that has a year or two left. This player likely offers nothing but an opportunity to try to get "more" for next deadline.

D: Let Aramis expire - pay him the deferred money in 2017/2018.

 

I'd rank the options A, B, C, D. A is extremely unlikely. B and C are up for debate. D is OK but that deferred money is annoying. If they take on Aramis' deferred money in option C, I'd almost bump that up to 2nd in the list.

[monty57]

Ramirez played his bluff this past offseason, acting like he wanted to sign a 2-year deal somewhere and Melvin, thinking he could save $4MM by exercising his option, bought the bluff. Had they not exercised the option, they would have owed $4MM and Ramirez would have retired. Now they're stuck with a massively overpriced contract and the distinct likelihood that the team will lose money. They've thrown all their garbage on the block (Garza, Lohse, Ramirez, Broxton) hoping someone will save them from their own mistakes, but no one is going to give them anything of value back. The best they can hope for is some salary relief, and that may (as in the case of the Mets) require the team to take another bad contract back.

 

The only way the Brewers will get salary relief and get something decent back is to offer up something of value, such as Gomez or Lucroy (although Lucroy doesn't make much to offer "salary relief," which would mean he'd bring even more talent back). I think the Brewers are trying to stick with the "Attanasio game plan," and if someone would be dumb enough to take on one or two of our bad contracts we probably won't see any of Gomez, Lucroy or Segura traded. But, if no one "saves us from ourselves," the ownership group will probably be in the situation of either trading one or more of those guys or losing millions of dollars, and that is where I could see Attanasio finally caving in and making a meaningful trade.

[brewcrewdue80]

Trading Ramirez for Niese actually costs the team money...it COSTS THE TEAM MONEY, it doesn't save anything, because Niese is signed for next year too, guaranteed.

 

Niese is not pitching well, and there are plenty of scouts who think something isn't right with him - they do not trust his shoulder.

 

Ramirez for Niese...please tell me, where is the positive for Milwaukee?

 

I'm only advocating a trade for Gee. You can non-tender him after the season and move forward with the team.

 

Niese's contract and moving from the NLeast to the NL Central and pitching home games in MP vs Citi just screams no chance. The Mets had Niese on the table this past offseason. No one bit. That was with his lower price of this season as a part of the equation. He'll be more expensive next season have less team control....just everything that equals less tradeability than he had this past offseason. A trade of Niese equals a team buying in to him through 2016 season. No thank you, not under Milw's circumstance. They have enough young 500k pitchers to equal the #4 that Niese is at best to count on for 2016.

Gee saves Milw money and doesn't have a commitment for the Brewers beyond 2015. Thank you for you IP arm to get by for the 2015 season, the money you saved our team by allowing us to dump Ramirez on the Mets. See ya.