Trade with the Dodgers

[LouisEly]

They're whiners because they won't let it go - they keep bringing it up and patting themselves on the back. Hindsight is always 20/12. They did what they did, time to move on. That one pick is not going to change the state of the franchise.

 

Next, take out of your retrospective analysis anyone drafted ahead of the Brewers slot in 2013. They wouldn't have been available. I don't know who deemed Tim Anderson a top 100 prospect, but his career 34 BB to 200 K doesn't scream "Top 100" prospect to me (and in A+ and AA combined, it's 12:117); his OBP is extremely BA-heavy and his SLG is driven by his triples which aren't going to occur as frequently at higher levels. Unless he's a defensive whiz, his line looks very Scooter Gennett-ish (even worse in the K:BB ratio, and Scooter was the same age at the same levels), who was never a Top 100 prospect. Chris Anderson is one of the people I suggested returning in the deal. Gonzales has taken a big step back this year in AAA, and at the AAA level between this year and last year has given up 13 HRs in 74 IP; I'll take the "small sample" beating on that one, but his prior minor league success could also be classified as "small sample" too. Crawford is on the shelf and hasn't pitched yet this year, and while his ERA was pretty last year he walked 50 and struck out 85 in 123 innings - again, not what I would call a "Top 100" prospect - and the Tigers packaged him for 33-year-old Alfredo Simon, so I don't think the Tigers were convinced that he was a top prospect.

 

Unfortunately I don't see the value of those players that you do. So let's move on.

[MrTPlush]

I'm sorry but saying the Lohse signing was bad over a lost draft pick is wrong. Maybe questionable, but no one will ever know if it was bad because of the draft pick loss.

 

*Comparing us to the Cardinals in a draft is way off base. Especially the way they churn out pitchers.

 

*No way to ever know if they would have drafted some of those guys around where their pick was. You could look at every bad 1st round pick they have had the last decade and see about 5+ players around that pick that were Top 100 prospects at one point.

 

Anyone want to guess the last time one of our first round picks was ranked in the top 100 AFTER actually having some pro experience? 2008! And outside of Jake Odorizzi we haven't drafted an impact player since we drafted Braun in 2005!

[brewcrewdue80]

I'm sorry but saying the Lohse signing was bad over a lost draft pick is wrong. Maybe questionable, but no one will ever know if it was bad because of the draft pick loss.

 

*Comparing us to the Cardinals in a draft is way off base. Especially the way they churn out pitchers.

 

*No way to ever know if they would have drafted some of those guys around where their pick was. You could look at every bad 1st round pick they have had the last decade and see about 5+ players around that pick that were Top 100 prospects at one point.

 

Anyone want to guess the last time one of our first round picks was ranked in the top 100 AFTER actually having some pro experience? 2008! And outside of Jake Odorizzi we haven't drafted an impact player since we drafted Braun in 2005!

 

No, it's not wrong. Because I don't just say they lost the draft pick for signing him. It's the fact that they lost the draft pick to the Central Division typical Champs the Cardinals. It was late March. They should have waited to June draft and signed him afterwards if no other team had. The team lost their pick, increased the Cardinals selection 1 spot and also gave them what no other Team in MLB had done with less than 3 months til Lohse no longer had a pick comp attached to him. The 28th pick...why Lohse got the Cardinals the very first comp pick is beyond me when he was the very last signed?

 

Who'd they draft? Rob Kaminsky who was an appealing selection for Milw at 17 by some mocks. So Double Whammy.

 

Nevermind that Lohse hasn't and will never lead us to a Playoff berth. It's the fact that we Aided the Cardinals to be better at winning the division that Milw happens to play in. That's what is wrong to me in the signing. There also wasn't chirping going on that another team was in on Lohse so I believe he'd have lasted til the draft unsigned and at which point(after Milw's May) we wouldn't have signed him but had the draft pick, the Cardinals not getting the 28th pick and the team would likely have finished in the bottom 10 for the 2014 draft. They then would have been protected had they signed a QO player. These were the players that could have been had:

Carlos Beltran, Cardinals

Robinson Cano, Yankees

Shin-Soo Choo, Reds

Nelson Cruz, Rangers

Stephen Drew, Red Sox

Jacoby Ellsbury, Red Sox

Curtis Granderson, Yankees

Ubaldo Jimenez, Indians

Hiroki Kuroda, Yankees

Brian McCann, Braves

Kendrys Morales, Mariners

Mike Napoli, Red Sox

Ervin Santana, Royals

 

Do we see any reasonable signable players? I dunno Ervin Santana would have been a better signing than Lohse. Nelson Cruz? Going Braun,Gomez, Cruz in OF?

How about signing both Santana/Cruz while still having that top 10 pick? Things would look quite a bit different.

[Eye Black]

I do think somewhere in the range of Chris Anderson to Zach Lee would be a good fit in regards to a Lohse trade return. I am not sure both would be possible unless the Brewers added a second piece.

 

While Grant Holmes is the exact player I would like to see the Brewers pull from the Dodgers, I am having a hard time coming up with a trade proposal that fits both teams. If the Brewers trade one of their top tier pieces, like Lucroy, then Holmes seems a little below the type of player you would want back as a headliner to the trade. If the Brewers trade from their secondary pieces, like Lohse, then Holmes seems too rich for what the Dodgers would be getting in return. Even if you package a couple of Brewers trade chips, I also don't think the Dodgers would be interested in a quantity for quality trade involving Holmes.

[nate82]

I think Garza might be a better fit for the Dodgers. With the year that Greinke is having it looks like he is going to be opting out of his contract at the end of the year. While Garza is not a replacement for Greinke he will be a cheaper option than what will be available to the Dodgers in free agency. I don't believe the Dodgers will extend Greinke as you are looking at Scherzer type of money this off season for Greinke and are they willing to pay that for an aging Greinke? I don't think the Dodgers front office is going to do that and this is why Garza makes sense for the Dodgers now or even in the off season.

 

Dodgers get Garza and Sardinas

 

Brewers get Jose De Leon RHP, Austin Barnes C, and Zachary Bird RHP.

 

The Dodgers need a SS and Rollins is not it with his below .200 average I wonder if the Brewers traded Garza and Segura if the Brewers could get more out of the Dodgers. I don't think they would be able to get either Seager or Urias but possibly De Leon, Barnes, Holmes, Bird, and Lee. That is a lot of talent that would be coming to the Brewers.

 

I really like De Leon as I believe he is a front line starter. Bird is another pitcher who could be a front line starter but he has a lot of command issues and is a work in progress but he has the talent to be a top of the rotation starter. Obviously there is Holmes and he would have to be a player to be named later in the trade. Barnes is the hitter that everyone is looking for in this organization. He is very patient at the plate and hits to all parts of the field with some power. He will also bring a high OBP as he has been near a .400 OBP in his minor league career. Defensively at catcher he doesn't have a strong arm but he does block balls very well he looks to be about average to above average defensively at catcher. Barnes can also play 2B and 3B competently though his arm strength would be below average at 3B.

[trwi7]

They're whiners because they won't let it go - they keep bringing it up and patting themselves on the back. Hindsight is always 20/12. They did what they did, time to move on. That one pick is not going to change the state of the franchise.

 

Using this logic, we should never talk about any trade or free agent signing or draft pick or manager move. They did what they did, time to move on.

 

Your point of view on this is ridiculous.

[MrTPlush]

I'm sorry but your hindsight is a bit baffling. You have now resorted to talking about mock drafts having us pick a certain player. How many mock drafts had us picking Medeiros last year? Pretty comfortable that number is 0%.

 

Assuming no other team was on him and wouldn't have signed him before June is a bit silly. No proof to that. Sure there were no reports of other teams being interested, but there was no rumors the Brewers had any interest till it happened.

 

Sorry I am not a big fan of looking back at things and making countless assumptions and pretending like if we had that pick we would draft some great pitcher. I could easily assume that if we had that pick we would have drafted a guy who would never be anything and instead we would sign some garbage Suppan like pitcher the next off-season with the money we saved not signing Lohse.

 

Sure this route looks like it didn't work out. I would say it is a bad deal, but not a good deal either. Regardless there is no proof that the other path would have been any better. You don't know who they would have drafted or what they would have done with the money they saved on Lohse. All you are doing is looking back YEARS later finding out the perfect way to do it. I bet teams are knocking on your door to be their GM.

[LouisEly]

They're whiners because they won't let it go - they keep bringing it up and patting themselves on the back. Hindsight is always 20/12. They did what they did, time to move on. That one pick is not going to change the state of the franchise.

 

Using this logic, we should never talk about any trade or free agent signing or draft pick or manager move. They did what they did, time to move on.

 

Your point of view on this is ridiculous.

You're missing my point. It's ok to talk about it. For a while. But to keep bringing it up and keep patting yourself on the back, years later, is my point, and is just as ridiculous.

[brewcrewdue80]

I'm sorry but your hindsight is a bit baffling. You have now resorted to talking about mock drafts having us pick a certain player. How many mock drafts had us picking Medeiros last year? Pretty comfortable that number is 0%.

 

Assuming no other team was on him and wouldn't have signed him before June is a bit silly. No proof to that. Sure there were no reports of other teams being interested, but there was no rumors the Brewers had any interest till it happened.

 

Sorry I am not a big fan of looking back at things and making countless assumptions and pretending like if we had that pick we would draft some great pitcher. I could easily assume that if we had that pick we would have drafted a guy who would never be anything and instead we would sign some garbage Suppan like pitcher the next off-season with the money we saved not signing Lohse.

 

Sure this route looks like it didn't work out. I would say it is a bad deal, but not a good deal either. Regardless there is no proof that the other path would have been any better. You don't know who they would have drafted or what they would have done with the money they saved on Lohse. All you are doing is looking back YEARS later finding out the perfect way to do it. I bet teams are knocking on your door to be their GM.

 

Wait, what? No rumors about Lohse being signed by Milw before it happened? Why in the world did we have a thread that offseason and massive discussions for/against it(most against) then? Wasn't the rumor that Boras was talking with Mark A. directly prior to a signing? I think so.

 

I know there isn't proof to no other team would have signed him before June. But the Brewers piss poor start would have easily lead them to not sign him come June. It wouldn't have mattered had another team signed him before then still giving the Cards the pick. 78games are played inter-division on a season. 19games a piece. A win vs a loss is a 2game swing. Knowing that, I'm not trying to help my division rival in any way while taking away my odds of winning in division. Brewers Divison record with Lohse is 16-19. Clearly not even close to an answer. And it cost the team a pick again rewarding the Cardinals with a draft pick.

 

Your quite the joke in "I bet teams are knocking on your door to be their GM" Nobody here can live to that..certainly not you either. Yet you felt privileged to say that to me in a response? You have different logic than me obviously. You're like the Minnesota Vikings in football with it which is exactly how the Brewers have been run with Suppan and Lohse signings. Take the scrap heaps from the division rival, even comp them a pick and continue to lose to the best team in the division.

Pardon me for having a different approach when knowing this franchise is small-market and can't compete with a spend as much as possible and give up draft picks that are forever cheaper than anything they will spend on such QO players as Lohse. Makes sense. 33mil or 1.6ish mil? 3 years team control? or 6years if reached the Major League level? There's your proof the other path was most certainly better. 31million+ reasons worth.

 

Btw, the was someone who in final mock had Medeiros as pick with having knowledge of how much the Brewers loved his workout for them. So not 0%

[TheCrew07]

Two things are very wrong with a couple of previous posts.

 

1) It's basically held true that if you aren't willing to learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it. If you want to know the best way forward from your current point that information is going to come from studying and correcting the mistakes made in the past. To be bold you have be willing to think out of the box, see the entire situation, see where the market is weak and strong and exploit that advantage. It shouldn't be about evaluating just the 2015 MLB Brewers, or the 2014 MLB Brwers, or whatever ever other Brewer team one chooses to cherry pick. Rather to legitimately discuss where the Brewers have come up short, and they have obviously come up short, it's necessary to dissect not only the MLB roster, but the entire organization, and it's management. Once a reasonably unbiased assessment has been made, then you apply those same processes to the other teams within the NL Central. Where have they been, where are they now, where are they going? Once done with that you have to look at the entire NL and then if you have the time you can evaluate what's happening around MLB as a whole. It's impossible to have intelligent discussion on organization building when the discussion is limited to "I liked the Sabathia trade because I wanted to see playoffs in my lifetime". Not only is that a very selfish point of view, it is also so incredibly narrow that 100s of other important variables are being left out of the discussion which had a trickle down effect to today.

 

Too often people cherry pick to prove their point when the whole truth is readily evident in the Win/Loss records of the MLB team and organization as a whole, and it has nothing to do with bad luck, these were predictable decisions being made. It's no different than when posters write things like, "What was Melvin/Seid/Mark A./whomever supposed to do?" and then the answers are dismissed because they don't fit the particular poster whom asked the question point of view. Don't ask the question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer. None of this was fate, the trades made by Melvin weren't the only options available to him, they are simply the direction DM and MA chose to take this franchise and it hasn't worked out over the long haul.

 

2) It's not revisionist history to criticize decisions made in the past when those same posters criticized the moves at the time it happened. Rather that's what the rest of the world would consider being consistent in their convictions. There are posters who float around with the prevailing winds and readily change their opinion and then there are posters whom are passionate about their points of view. It's not only extremely rude but also dismissive to continually frame arguments regarding the past as "revisionist history" which has been regularly done on this forum for years. If you don't have the posting history, then don't assume that just because someone disagrees with a particular move they are using the benefit of hindsight to form their opinion. There was a small group of posters arguing against this eventuality for years, long before it was the prevailing opinion of the site.

 

I said before this shouldn't be about "told you so!" but I do find it disheartening that posters are completely unwilling to concede or even consider the enormous negative consequences of the trades Melvin has made, as well as the idea that the Brewers have wasted too much of their limited resources over the years. I would have thought the truth would be self evident at this point. Yes there were positives, but there were great costs in all of those moves as well.

 

Melvin has been here more than a decade, however for the purposes of this discussion I think it was fair to take his record from the time the team was actually ready to compete.

 

[pre]Rk Year Tm Lg W L W-L% pythW-L% Finish GB R RA Top Player

1 2015 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 16 27 .372 .384 5th of 5 11.5 167 216 R.Braun (1.0)

2 2014 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 82 80 .506 .495 3rd of 5 8.0 650 657 J.Lucroy (6.7)

3 2013 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 74 88 .457 .468 4th of 5 23.0 640 687 C.Gomez (8.5)

4 2012 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 83 79 .512 .526 3rd of 6 14.0 776 733 R.Braun (6.9)

5 2011 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 96 66 .593 .556 1st of 6 -- 721 638 R.Braun (7.8)

6 2010 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 77 85 .475 .468 3rd of 6 14.0 750 804 R.Braun (5.7)

7 2009 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 80 82 .494 .481 3rd of 6 11.0 785 818 P.Fielder (6.3)

8 2008 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 90 72 .556 .539 2nd of 6 7.5 750 689 C.Sabathia (5.2)

9 2007 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 83 79 .512 .515 2nd of 6 2.0 801 776 C.Hart (4.7)

10 2006 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 75 87 .463 .440 4th of 6 8.5 730 833 B.Hall (5.8)

11 2005 MilwaukeeBrewers NL Central 81 81 .500 .519 3rd of 6 19.0 726 697 G.Jenkins (4.6)[/pre]

 

Over that time (Melvin's best possible sample) the Brewers are 837-826 which is a .503 winning percentage. It's nearly impossible to be any more mediocre than that. There are other small markets who have been to the WS and sustained success much better than the Brewers from year to year, I don't believe that a .503 winning percentage was the best the Brewers could have been over the last 11 years.

 

The overall record is tells part of the picture, the but the most obvious deficiency has always been the team's pitching, this table tells the story without having to say much else, it was never adequately addressed. FYI "PAge" is the average age of the pitching staff, and finish is within the NL Central.

 

[pre]Rk Year Finish RA/G ERA G IP H R ER HR BB SO WHIP SO9 HR9 PAge

1 2015 5 5.02 4.60 43 378.0 379 216 193 55 131 346 1.349 8.24 1.31 29.6

2 2014 3 4.06 3.67 162 1457.2 1386 657 594 167 431 1246 1.247 7.69 1.03 29.0

3 2013 4 4.24 3.84 162 1442.2 1401 687 615 175 466 1125 1.294 7.02 1.09 28.8

4 2012 3 4.52 4.22 162 1453.2 1458 733 682 169 525 1402 1.364 8.68 1.05 29.0

5 2011 1 3.94 3.63 162 1441.2 1348 638 582 147 440 1257 1.240 7.85 0.92 29.3

6 2010 3 4.96 4.58 162 1439.0 1487 804 733 173 582 1258 1.438 7.87 1.08 29.2

7 2009 3 5.05 4.83 162 1435.0 1498 818 770 207 607 1104 1.467 6.92 1.30 30.0

8 2008 2 4.25 3.85 162 1455.2 1415 689 623 175 528 1110 1.335 6.86 1.08 29.9

9 2007 2 4.79 4.41 162 1444.1 1513 776 708 161 507 1174 1.399 7.32 1.00 29.1

10 2006 4 5.14 4.82 162 1425.2 1454 833 763 177 514 1145 1.380 7.23 1.12 28.3

11 2005 3 4.30 3.97 162 1438.0 1382 697 635 169 569 1173 1.357 7.34 1.06 28.0[/pre]

 

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table

Generated 5/23/2015.

 

Here's the Brewer rank by runs allowed in the NL for each of those years.

2015 - 15th

2014 - 10th

2013 - 9th

2012 - 13th

2011 - 6th

2010 - 14th

2009 - 15th

2008 - 4th

2007 - 9th

2006 - 14th

2005 - 6th

 

Shouldn't it be obvious what the organization's Achilles heel has been? Who's ultimately responsible for that deficiency? Has the team's roster building strategy proven effective or sustainable?

 

I believe the answers to those questions are obvious which is why I've been arguing so vehemently against management's strategy for so long. It's not about being a Melvin or Attanasio hater, in truth I like both gentlemen on a personal level, it's about cold evaluation of facts. Which I admit for me is rather easy because I don't have any sentimental attachments to any of the players or people in management, I care only about the bar I've set for the organization.

 

I believe that Melvin and his cronies like Reid Nichols need to go, I believe that Mark A has to hire the next Andrew Friedman and have enough trust in that man to stay out of baseball decisions, and I believe that the Brewers desperately need to change their tact and learn how to continually turn over their roster every year. Recently the Brewers have done a decent job taking their extra $20 million from MLB and reinvesting that money on amateur talent from Latin America, but it's too little too late at this juncture, and the team should have been investing in amateur talent all along. However I question if the team wouldn't have gotten that extra revenue if any significant changes would have taken place and the team would have just continued to spend all of its available resources on the MLB payroll like it did in the past. That strategy left little wiggle room in the draft and led to a woeful record developing international talent, MLB's changing of the rules and extra TV contract revenue have been as, if not more important, than the Brewers making a significant change in tact.

[paul253]

What about Lohse or Garza straight up for Holmes? Holmes obviously has a lot of upside but is still years away from making any sort of contribution. The Dodgers can afford to do away with one prospect to get a starter who can help them now. Holmes was the guy I really wanted in the draft last season.

[MrTPlush]

What about Lohse or Garza straight up for Holmes? Holmes obviously has a lot of upside but is still years away from making any sort of contribution. The Dodgers can afford to do away with one prospect to get a starter who can help them now. Holmes was the guy I really wanted in the draft last season.

 

Very very doubtful. He is only a borderline Top 100 prospect, but he is just starting out and has huge potential. I am guessing they put a lot of value on him. I think it is hard to really gauge the value of Garza/Lohse right now though. Their value could change dramatically between now and July 31. Right now Holmes for the two would be laughable...but July maybe it is less crazy.

[paul253]

Right now Holmes for the two would be laughable...but July maybe it is less crazy.

 

I think you are overvaluing Holmes right now. I understand he has a lot of upside but you're talking two established Major League pitchers for an A ball prospect. I wasn't even suggesting Holmes for Lohse AND Garza, I was suggesting him for Lohse OR Garza. Again, I understand he has a lot of upside but he's years away from contributing. A lot could go wrong over that time.

[MrTPlush]

Right now Holmes for the two would be laughable...but July maybe it is less crazy.

 

I think you are overvaluing Holmes right now. I understand he has a lot of upside but you're talking two established Major League pitchers for an A ball prospect. I wasn't even suggesting Holmes for Lohse AND Garza, I was suggesting him for Lohse OR Garza. Again, I understand he has a lot of upside but he's years away from contributing. A lot could go wrong over that time.

 

That is true, but letting go of prospect like him after a year is very uncommon. It does happen as I recall a first rounder being a PTBNL not too many years ago...but still very uncommon.

 

Either pitcher would really have to get it going to be valuable enough to command such a young highly touted guy. Sadly both have been quite inconsistent and dissapointing.

[trwi7]

I don't think asking for Holmes would be crazy if Coletti was still the GM. Unfortunately they now have Friedman who I suspect will still run the team like a small market but with the ability to spend a quarter billion on payroll.

[brewcrewdue80]

I wasn't fully enamored by Holmes watching video predraft last season. Better than Toussaint but I thought his control was going to be spotty. Stats as of now he's 19BBs in 38.2IP. A little less than 4.5BB/9. Dodgers have Urias, and De Leon's numbers have just been phenomenal. I could see a reason to trade Holmes if it meant gaining a Garza in return. There's real speculation Grienke will opt out of his contract, and with Ryu/McCarthy's season ending injuries, Garza would be a cheap decent fit for them. Anderson will be gone after the season. I really have a hard time looking at that rotation for the Playoffs and seeing any single SP after Kershaw/Grienke for that rotation. Brandon Beachy is an unknown. I mean honestly Anderson hasn't pitched more than 83 professional innings since 2011. How in the world will Mr yearly injury last 30Starts? Much less any Playoff starts. the Dodgers have NO One anymore after their top 2 for a rotation likely after the Deadline. They need 3 SPs. Lohse and Garza may not be top notch but at least appear to offer some quality to them. If indeed Friedman is going to run his team like a small market and hold on to his Seager/Urias then they won't be getting any of the Star studded SPs as Hamels/Cueto in trade. To me, personally, Im not taking on Hamels contract and giving up Seager or Urias to do it. I'm also not giving those two up for a rental as Cueto if I'm running the team small market-wisely.

 

Can the Dodgers commit to running Carlos Frias/Zach Lee and 4day rests of Kershaw/Grienke for the playoffs to keep their prospects? Seriously they are 155IP previous highs, Chris Anderson 125. The team has no one to honestly count for 180IP anymore. Mccarthy and Ryu were it. Maybe Beachy takes over Anderson's SP end of season.

 

What will the Dodgers do to have any type of September rotation barring them moving SPs now or in a month to the Bullpen and "Save" their arm/IP to maybe get them to last Sept/Playoffs.

 

If Grienke rumored gone is true with the year he's having, how do you let him walk and not put a #3/#4 SP in that rotation to make a playoff push. You pay 200+mil dollars to fully embarrass yourself when September comes besides Playoffs and then start 2016 with Kershaw and 3 to 4 open Rotation spots?

 

Garza got the Cubs CJ Edwards, I'd think Holmes is a fairly solid comparison to him at the time of the trade.

 

Dodgers could solve their rotation issues, keep Urias/Seager get Lohse/Garza for Holmes, Anderson and Lee....better yet Bellinger for Milw vs Lee. That's at what I think is current value for Lohse/Garza if a trade were made in this next week. Garza or Lohse string together solid starts, there's going to be more needed in the trade for Milwaukee.

 

Just checked box scores after this post. Frias with a 4IP 12hits 10ER 2BB 0K line vs San Diego.

[MrTPlush]

Frias' line looks a whole lot like someone you want them to unload legitimate prospects for.

 

You do bring up a good point though. His innings are going to rack up really quick as the season progresses. I think they need to add a vet, but is Garza that guy? Lohse? Either of them at the price you are floating? Maybe...I have seen crazier things.

 

I don't know if I really see the concern with Greinke leaving though. It isn't like he was a cheap homegrown guy...they are paying him $25mil this year. They could easily just get a new ace off a deep FA market.

[nate82]

 

I don't know if I really see the concern with Greinke leaving though. It isn't like he was a cheap homegrown guy...they are paying him $25mil this year. They could easily just get a new ace off a deep FA market.

 

They could but I don't think Friedman is going to go that route. Landing someone like Garza who will be under paid compared to his peers in the upcoming free agency would be a steal for any team. The majority of #3 and #4 type pitchers are going to be paid more than what Garza is making. The Dodgers could go out and sign Zimmerman or Cueto in the off season but is Friedman going to go and do this? I don't think he will and will instead go bargain hunting if he doesn't already this season.

 

Garza is that bargain as he would fit in nicely as their #3 or #4 pitcher next season and he fits in nicely as the #3 this season. I don't see Friedman parting with his top two prospects so that eliminates both Cueto and Hamels unless a team is enamored with De Leon. It is kind of sad really for the Reds as there are not that many teams that are going to be out there that are going to be looking for a rental player especially at the price that Cueto is going to demand.

 

Players like Lohse, Garza, and others are actually going to be in demand more than Cueto and Hamels will be. With the way that baseball has turned into right now in prizing prospects especially young ones that look to be certain super stars I don't see teams giving up major talent to get a rental like Cueto or even a player like Hamels who has more years on his contract left. I believe these type of deals are in the past at least for now. The only team I can see giving up a major prospect for Cueto or Hamels are the Cubs and they are only going to give up one and that prospect is Baez. I don't see the Reds or the Phillies giving up either of their players for only one super prospect and I see the Reds holding onto Cueto and taking the draft pick as the return is not going to be all that great.

[splitterpfj]

I could see the Dodgers going after someone like Hamels or Cueto, but I also think they need more than one pitcher to get through this season and go for the World Series. The won't get two guys at that level, so Lohse or Garza will still make sense.

 

I think it's Lohse, because he's the quick and easy deal, with his contract ending this year. Those of you who are saying Grant Homes, I'm on the bandwagon, but if LA would part with Jose De Leon, the Brewers should not hesitate.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=deleon008jos

[nate82]

I could see the Dodgers going after someone like Hamels or Cueto, but I also think they need more than one pitcher to get through this season and go for the World Series. The won't get two guys at that level, so Lohse or Garza will still make sense.

 

 

But will Friedman trade either Seager or Urias for Cueto or Hamels? I don't think he will and that ends the conversation with both the Reds and Phillies. Maybe the Reds will take De Leon but they are going to want more than De Leon in return and it would almost have to include Holmes plus more. I just don't see Friedman giving up all that talent for just half a season of Cueto.

 

Garza makes sense here and Lohse a little bit less. I still believe Lohse makes more sense for a team like the Royals who may just want a half a season of a player and don't want to give up a big time prospect. The Royals also have some depth at 1B and 3B that they can deal from.

[splitterpfj]

But will Friedman trade either Seager or Urias for Cueto or Hamels?

 

I don't know, I've never seen Friedman operate in the LA market, but I can't imagine LA trading Seager, period. Would they deal Urias for Cueto - no, he's a rental, but for Hamels, yes, I could at least envision it. Hamels is signed through 2018, and the Dodgers are not the Rays, if they want more than a patch, that's the level they'll have to go to.

 

That only happens if Hamels is the guy they want though, since there should be some excellent pitchers on the free agent market this winter.

 

I think Lohse makes a lot of sense for LA, Garza would, but he actually presents more risk to teams, because of the guaranteed money going forward - he's got to be pitching well consistently to get teams interested, and he hasn't done that yet this season. He might, there's plenty of time, but moving Lohse should be much easier.

[reillymcshane]

I'm just don't see why any club gives up much of anything for Garza or Lohse. I don't see anyone giving up a quality player for a guy having a bad season like Lohse and Garza are having. Sure they are likely to do better (and Lohse has done well of late). But these guys are over 30, have ERAs over 5.00, and have given up homers by the bushel. If I'm a GM, these are two guys who might (and I stress might) help you out at the back of the rotation. Then again, they both might just be declining as players.

 

At least Lohse you don't have to worry about being on the hook for two more years of salaries as with Garza.

 

I think the best we are going to do with either player is salary relief, a player in need of a change (Garin Cecchini for example) or a lower level guy who might develop into something down the line.

 

As a comparable, last year the Cardinals gave up a middling prospect (at best) for Justin Masterson - a guy having a bad year. I don't see us doing any better than that for Garza or Lohse.

 

I will add that it does just take one team to make something happen - so maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe a team values Garza or Lohse more than I think.

 

No matter, let's just hope they both keep pitching better to up their value.

[LouisEly]

This season is also a small sample so far. Last season, amongst all NL pitchers with at least 120 IP, Lohse was among the top 30 in ERA (i.e. a #2 starter) and Garza was just outside at #33 (a high #3). Of those ahead of them on that list, some played in a much more pitcher-friendly ballpark and in reality were not better, a vast majority are not going to be available, and some are injured. Past performance is no guarantee for future performance, but that applies to 2014 just as much as it applies to the first 9 starts of 2015.

[brewcrewdue80]

Dodgers and Braves swapped Juan Uribe for Alberto Callaspo. In the deal the Dodgers are taking a retread of Eric Stults who's a #4/5 type SP with 200IP potential. Great deal on their part for their current need. Pretty much he'll be a band-aid now til the Deadline over the likes of Frias/Bolsinger. And give them at least an option for Sept if injury bug bites them again. Oh, and they now have more leverage on negotiations, say for Lohse. Say you were asking for Chris Anderson. They can just say the list to choose from is Lee, Stripling, and Wieland.

 

Going to be tougher to make a deal with the Dodgers. Lohse/Garza need to perform to be wanted vs Sold off as salary relief.

[LouisEly]

Stultz is 35 and did nothing in his career until landing in the very pitcher-friendly Petco Park. He was a throw-in in the deal, and isn't going to impact the decision to acquire starting pitching. The fact that the Brewers hung 7 on Stultz in less than four innings at Atlanta should tell you all you need to know about Stultz.

 

If Lohse had pitched in SD the last two years instead of Miller Park his numbers would have looked a lot better than Stultz's.

 

UPDATE: Stultz DFA'd by Dodgers. Included simply as salary evener. No additional leverage for Dodgers.