Ryan Braun - Worst Contract in Franchise History?

[3and2Fastball]

The cynic in me says he signed the contract knowing that without PED's he is just a .260 15 HR a season guy and figured he'd eventually get caught

 

The optimist says that he genuinely likes/liked Milwaukee, liked being the Face of the Franchise and was happy to get the guaranteed money early

[pacopete4]

The cynic in me says he signed the contract knowing that without PED's he is just a .260 15 HR a season guy and figured he'd eventually get caught

 

The optimist says that he genuinely likes/liked Milwaukee, liked being the Face of the Franchise and was happy to get the guaranteed money early

 

 

I'm sorry but PED's or no PED's, Braun can still hit a baseball. While those things might have kept him healthier, I still do not believe they help you hit a baseball. Still have to have the talent to do it.

[yfinn6]

The cynic in me says he signed the contract knowing that without PED's he is just a .260 15 HR a season guy and figured he'd eventually get caught

 

The optimist says that he genuinely likes/liked Milwaukee, liked being the Face of the Franchise and was happy to get the guaranteed money early

 

 

I'm sorry but PED's or no PED's, Braun can still hit a baseball. While those things might have kept him healthier, I still do not believe they help you hit a baseball. Still have to have the talent to do it.

 

Sure, you still need hand-eye coordination to hit a baseball, but the PEDs can help you stay healthier longer. Healthy body = quick bat, and Braun's bat seems to be slow. He's having trouble getting the barrel on the ball on the inside half of the plate. If he's lucky, he can inside-out the ball to RF but those were balls that used to be deposited into the LF bleachers. I'm not going to mention how he's chasing bad pitches, because PEDs or not, that's just ugly. But I would say his slow bat could be a result of not being on something; could also be a result of his thumb not being 100%; could just be that he's older now.

 

I don't know if he was on PEDs his whole career or not until he actually got suspended; it's unlikely given how much he was tested and still put up great numbers. I don't know if it's the thumb that's making his bat slow, but it's pretty clear to me that he can't handle inside pitches like he used to be able to. If he's laying off the low and away breaking ball, it looks like pitchers then attack him up or inside where he can't lay off the pitches but also can't do much with them.

 

Maybe he should use a lighter bat, or maybe I just need to be more patient with him but this start is ugly and if this continues it will make the contract pretty bad, even if he's the only player we're going to be paying a lot of money to. A bad contract is a bad contract, no matter what percentage of the team's payroll it is - just my opinion.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm sorry but PED's or no PED's, Braun can still hit a baseball. While those things might have kept him healthier, I still do not believe they help you hit a baseball. Still have to have the talent to do it.

 

Well, yeah. Hitting .260 in MLB with 10-15 HR's a season means that person is in the rarified air of truly elite hitters in the world

 

Put it this way, if Scooter Gennett was on steroids (I'm assuming he's not) he'd probably hit 20-25 HR's a year. And he'd get pitched to differently, which would potentially lead to him getting more basehits as pitchers would be more willing to risk giving him pitches that he can get singles on while trying to take away the pitches that land in his "HR zone"

 

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Braun is getting pitched to way differently now than he did in 2011

[Boomer5]

I'm sorry but PED's or no PED's, Braun can still hit a baseball. While those things might have kept him healthier, I still do not believe they help you hit a baseball. Still have to have the talent to do it.

 

Well, yeah. Hitting .260 in MLB with 10-15 HR's a season means that person is in the rarified air of truly elite hitters in the world

 

Put it this way, if Scooter Gennett was on steroids (I'm assuming he's not) he'd probably hit 20-25 HR's a year. And he'd get pitched to differently, which would potentially lead to him getting more basehits as pitchers would be more willing to risk giving him pitches that he can get singles on while trying to take away the pitches that land in his "HR zone"

 

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Braun is getting pitched to way differently now than he did in 2011

 

 

Exactly. Without PED's Braun simply is an average player in LF, to a below average player if he is playing RF. And that is giving him a pass for a bad start in 2015.

 

The mayor of Baltimore is having a better year than Braun right now, and we don't have to pay her for the next 5 years either.

[FVBrewerFan]

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Braun is getting pitched to way differently now than he did in 2011

 

I don't think he is. He's just swinging at pitches he didn't swing at in the past. Swinging and missing at off-speed stuff low and away, and hitting grounders on low fastballs out of the zone. That's the biggest difference I've seen in Braun.

[Ennder]

Put it this way, if Scooter Gennett was on steroids (I'm assuming he's not) he'd probably hit 20-25 HR's a year

 

I highly doubt that. Everything I've read on the tested effects of steroids suggests this is false. I mean other players who got busted mostly reverted to like 90% of their old stats just like you would expect. Braun has a hand injury added to his case which makes him the unique one and likely causing him to be the outlier. These aren't the steroids of the Bonds era where they added tons of muscle mass, the steroids used today are very different.

[Boomer5]

Put it this way, if Scooter Gennett was on steroids (I'm assuming he's not) he'd probably hit 20-25 HR's a year

 

I highly doubt that. Everything I've read on the tested effects of steroids suggests this is false. I mean other players who got busted mostly reverted to like 90% of their old stats just like you would expect. Braun has a hand injury added to his case which makes him the unique one and likely causing him to be the outlier. These aren't the steroids of the Bonds era where they added tons of muscle mass, the steroids used today are very different.

 

Then why are they risking everything by taking them in the first place?

 

They don't enhance performance? Its kind of in the name PED's to begin with.

[pacopete4]

Put it this way, if Scooter Gennett was on steroids (I'm assuming he's not) he'd probably hit 20-25 HR's a year

 

I highly doubt that. Everything I've read on the tested effects of steroids suggests this is false. I mean other players who got busted mostly reverted to like 90% of their old stats just like you would expect. Braun has a hand injury added to his case which makes him the unique one and likely causing him to be the outlier. These aren't the steroids of the Bonds era where they added tons of muscle mass, the steroids used today are very different.

 

Then why are they risking everything by taking them in the first place?

 

They don't enhance performance? Its kind of in the name PED's to begin with.

 

 

I don't think he's saying that PED's do not enhance performance. He's just trying to say the Gennett's of the world do not become the Braun's of the world by taking PED's. The thumb injury has WAY more to do with Braun's recent struggles that any PED he ever took.

[3and2Fastball]

I don't think he's saying that PED's do not enhance performance. He's just trying to say the Gennett's of the world do not become the Braun's of the world by taking PED's. The thumb injury has WAY more to do with Braun's recent struggles that any PED he ever took.

 

Maybe. I will grant that as a distinct possibility

 

But to be clear: I am saying that Braun just might be Gennett without PED's. And I'm dead serious. Well, Scooter is better defensively

[pacopete4]

I don't think he's saying that PED's do not enhance performance. He's just trying to say the Gennett's of the world do not become the Braun's of the world by taking PED's. The thumb injury has WAY more to do with Braun's recent struggles that any PED he ever took.

 

Maybe. I will grant that as a distinct possibility

 

But to be clear: I am saying that Braun just might be Gennett without PED's. And I'm dead serious. Well, Scooter is better defensively

 

 

That's where we completely differ. The Ryan Braun talents of baseball do not come around often. Sure his defense is just average but his bat, PED's or not during his prime, is just flat out better than Gennett could ever dream of being.

[adambr2]

He told the whole world back in November that his thumb is 100%. The thumb excuse isn't going to fly for him at the end of this year if he bombs this year.

[logan82]

I think the Ryan Braun situation is pretty concerning and I don't think we can assume his production in 2012 came without the use of PEDs. It's entirely possible that he had used PEDs for his entire career. He could have easily tested positive due to a rare combination of error on his part while being randomly selected for testing. Many players have used PEDs and, relatively speaking, very few have been caught. If Braun was aware of a mistake on his part that directly led to the positive test and was confident that he could avoid making the mistake in the future, why would he stop using? Up until that point, he could have made it his entire career without testing positive.

 

To me, there is one point in time where we can be fairly certain that he stopped using PEDs - when Anthony Bosch's clinic was busted and shut down. Unfortunately for Braun and the Brewers, this point in time also marks a dramatic change in the level of his production. I think the PEDs impacted his performance far more than a lot people want to believe.

 

He is 31, seems to be getting injured with increased frequency and has been performing miserably when on the field. There is nothing good about this situation. I'm not sure if this will go down as the worst Brewers contract ever but I think it will easily wind up in the top 3.

If he used in 2012 I think it is safe to bet he is still using.

[3and2Fastball]

That's where we completely differ. The Ryan Braun talents of baseball do not come around often. Sure his defense is just average but his bat, PED's or not during his prime, is just flat out better than Gennett could ever dream of being.

 

Now, again, I am just making conversation. But if Scooter took steroids through high school in California and through college at Miami it is conceivable that he could have been a .300 hitting 30 HR guy in MLB. Don't discount Scooter, he's got a quick bat. Every player capable of hitting MLB pitching is an elite level hitter. You give them chemical enhancements for a decade or so you can take them to another level.

 

Not sure how familiar you guys are with Steroids, but once you cycle off of them you don't just lose all the muscle mass. You lose some but you are left with more than your particular genetics would normally allow

 

I have some (I think) reasonable doubt that Braun would be built more like Scooter & would hit more like Scooter if he never did PED's..... you think when he was at the U of Miami and training with A-Rod that he was completely clean? Can I sell you a bridge?

[3and2Fastball]

On Ryan Braun's U of Miami team: "Five key players were suspended and expelled, including two stars who several sources say were banned for a full season for testing positive for PEDs."

 

Braun worked out regularly with A-Rod as a 20/21 year old "The summer following that season, Braun, Sanchez, and Carrillo all played for the collegiate Cape Cod League, on a team called the Brewster Whitecaps. Braun struggled all summer and ultimately left early, but what his Brewster teammates remember is the 21-year-old kid bragging about his close relationship with 30-year-old superstar Alex Rodriguez. "He said him and Alex worked out together in Miami some when Alex came into town," says Steve Tolleson, who went on to play for two major-league teams. Another teammate remembers Braun ostentatiously talking to Rodriguez on the phone during a bus trip. And a third, outfielder Ryan Patterson, says most Brewster teammates found Braun's constant showboating about his famous friend to be annoying. "It bothered a few of the guys," Patterson says. "It was 'Alex has this car, and did this with me,' and the guys were like 'OK, can we play some baseball?' "

 

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/steroids-long-history-at-the-university-of-miami-6396150

[monty57]

That's where we completely differ. The Ryan Braun talents of baseball do not come around often. Sure his defense is just average but his bat, PED's or not during his prime, is just flat out better than Gennett could ever dream of being.

 

Now, again, I am just making conversation. But if Scooter took steroids through high school in California and through college at Miami it is conceivable that he could have been a .300 hitting 30 HR guy in MLB. Don't discount Scooter, he's got a quick bat. Every player capable of hitting MLB pitching is an elite level hitter. You give them chemical enhancements for a decade or so you can take them to another level.

 

Not sure how familiar you guys are with Steroids, but once you cycle off of them you don't just lose all the muscle mass. You lose some but you are left with more than your particular genetics would normally allow

 

I have some (I think) reasonable doubt that Braun would be built more like Scooter & would hit more like Scooter if he never did PED's..... you think when he was at the U of Miami and training with A-Rod that he was completely clean? Can I sell you a bridge?

 

 

Unless you're Barry Bonds trying to show that with steroids you can hit more HR than a 'roided up McGuire, it makes no sense for someone to start using after they've already made it to the MLB level. If you're going to start using, it would be before you were drafted in order to get the notice of MLB scouts. Therefore, if the majority of users start using early, and if every "Scooter Gennett" out there could become a Ryan Braun type hitter if they start using PEDs early, and if (as many believe) at least half the guys in MLB were using at one point, then you have to come to the conclusion that at least half the guys in MLB were 1.000 OPS, MVP Award winners.

 

Since at least half the guys in MLB are not 1.000 OPS hitters, then I can't believe that every "Scooter Gennett" out there could become a Ryan Braun-type talent if only they decided to use the type of PED Ryan Braun tested positive for.

[3and2Fastball]

well.... monty57.... I suppose it is possible that Scooter is on Roids and would just be a Single A washout without them

 

Otherwise I'm not following you.

 

I'm not talking about every Scooter Gennett. Guys like Scooter Gennett have way more to lose than Ryan Braun if caught with PED's. Scooter didn't have the huge signing bonus. He's battling & scraping just to stay in the show. He gets caught with Roids his career might be done.

[monty57]

On Ryan Braun's U of Miami team: "Five key players were suspended and expelled, including two stars who several sources say were banned for a full season for testing positive for PEDs."

 

Braun worked out regularly with A-Rod as a 20/21 year old "The summer following that season, Braun, Sanchez, and Carrillo all played for the collegiate Cape Cod League, on a team called the Brewster Whitecaps. Braun struggled all summer and ultimately left early, but what his Brewster teammates remember is the 21-year-old kid bragging about his close relationship with 30-year-old superstar Alex Rodriguez. "He said him and Alex worked out together in Miami some when Alex came into town," says Steve Tolleson, who went on to play for two major-league teams. Another teammate remembers Braun ostentatiously talking to Rodriguez on the phone during a bus trip. And a third, outfielder Ryan Patterson, says most Brewster teammates found Braun's constant showboating about his famous friend to be annoying. "It bothered a few of the guys," Patterson says. "It was 'Alex has this car, and did this with me,' and the guys were like 'OK, can we play some baseball?' "

 

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/steroids-long-history-at-the-university-of-miami-6396150

 

Also reads as "a bunch of guys who never did anything in their baseball careers are jealous of their more talented teammate who went on to win an MVP and make nearly $150,000,000 playing baseball."

 

I believe attorneys call this anecdotal evidence, and while reporters, bloggers and the like love to shovel this stuff on the fire, it doesn't really prove anything. Now, if one of them said "I heard Braun on the phone with A-Rod discussing their drug use," you might have something. That Braun may have bragged about riding in A-Rod's Ferrari, well, what 20-year-old wouldn't brag about riding in A-Rod's Ferrari?

[bill hAll Star]

Unless you're Barry Bonds trying to show that with steroids you can hit more HR than a 'roided up McGuire, it makes no sense for someone to start using after they've already made it to the MLB level. If you're going to start using, it would be before you were drafted in order to get the notice of MLB scouts.

 

Melky Cabrera got a gigantic contract after hitting .100 OPS points higher than his recent career uptick. A-Rod got a $250 million contract. Poo Holes got a $250 million contract. There are lots of reasons to do steroids once in the league.

 

As for the other discussion about how much they help, I am one that still thinks Braun is a very good player and doesn't "need" roids, but there are plenty of guys that pretty clearly were helped. The league average OPS was almost .800 15 years ago and now it is .700. Sosa, Bonds, Palmiero, Piazza, Juan Gonzalez, A-Rod to an extent, etc. It's not as if these guys wouldn't be in the league if they didn't have the roids, but they put up more superhuman numbers with them.

 

Why is A-Rod likely "off" the roids and putting up a .750-.800 OPS near 40 in Yankee Stadium yet when Barry Bonds went on roids and went from a 1.000 OPS guy to a 1.2 to even a 1.4 (!) OPS guy as he was pushing 40 and they build a stadium where it was extremely hard to hit HR to right field?

[3and2Fastball]

so monty57, are you saying that you believe Ryan Braun that he never took PED's except that one time during the playoff run when he was injured and trying to get healthy?

 

Despite the friendship with A-Rod, and the rampant drugs at the U of Miami, you believe that the Ryan Braun the Brewers drafted was naturally built?

 

I think it is a reasonable assumption that now that Braun is facing a lifetime ban if caught with PED's again, he is finally off them for the first time since High School and the .262 BA/.753 OPS Braun of the last 2 years is all he ever would have been without chemical enhancements

[monty57]

well.... monty57.... I suppose it is possible that Scooter is on Roids and would just be a Single A washout without them

 

Otherwise I'm not following you.

 

I'm not talking about every Scooter Gennett. Guys like Scooter Gennett have way more to lose than Ryan Braun if caught with PED's. Scooter didn't have the huge signing bonus. He's battling & scraping just to stay in the show. He gets caught with Roids his career might be done.

 

You were stating that without PEDs Braun would hit and be built like Scooter Gennett. The converse of that is that with PEDs, Scooter Gennett would hit like Ryan Braun.

 

Since it is believed by many that a large percentage of MLB players were (or maybe still are) users, and if someone like Scooter Gennett used, then he would hit like Ryan Braun, then it would seem logical that a large percentage of players in MLB should hit like 2011 Braun.

 

Since very few players hit like a 2011 Ryan Braun, I think it's logical to believe that Braun, with or without PEDs is a far better hitter than Scooter Gennett, and even if Scotter Gennett took what Braun tested positive for, he could not hit anywhere near Ryan Braun levels.

 

Personally, I think it's much more likely that the guys who "are just scraping by" would take PEDs. If you already have a 95 MPH fastball, you don't need to take PEDs to get noticed. However, if you're throwing 85 MPH, there is a lot of incentive to take PEDs to get a few more MPH on your fastball and get noticed by the scouts. Once you're in the majors, if you are good, it's stupid to use, as you will make a lot of money no matter what. If you are just scraping by, you may need to take PEDs or you will lose your job.

 

Not saying anyone should take PEDs, but there is a lot more incentive for borderline players to take them than there is for star players. But, it's a personal decision, and players of all skill levels decide it for themselves, so there's no scientific methodology to determine who is likely to use. I'd guess that if someone wants to use PEDs, they will find a way to get them.

[3and2Fastball]

I think the biggest reason we have a misunderstanding here is because you don't realize how great I think Scooter Gennett is. I think he could be an elite MLB hitter with more development. I think he's got a great swing.

[pacopete4]

so monty57, are you saying that you believe Ryan Braun that he never took PED's except that one time during the playoff run when he was injured and trying to get healthy?

 

Despite the friendship with A-Rod, and the rampant drugs at the U of Miami, you believe that the Ryan Braun the Brewers drafted was naturally built?

 

I think it is a reasonable assumption that now that Braun is facing a lifetime ban if caught with PED's again, he is finally off them for the first time since High School and the .262 BA/.753 OPS Braun of the last 2 years is all he ever would have been without chemical enhancements

 

 

You're not consistently a .300 hitter because of PEDs. More power? Sure. But that average is low due to a thumb injury and adjusting.

 

If everyone's stats doubled with PEDs you'd still have more guys using and trying to get away with it.

[monty57]

so monty57, are you saying that you believe Ryan Braun that he never took PED's except that one time during the playoff run when he was injured and trying to get healthy?

 

I believe that linking to an article quoting a few players who played with Braun for a couple of weeks a decade or so ago saying Braun talked a lot about a brief friendship with A-Rod and that he had a cool car does not prove anything. He may have used PEDs with A-Rod, but you that article in no way proves that it occurred.

 

Despite the friendship with A-Rod, and the rampant drugs at the U of Miami, you believe that the Ryan Braun the Brewers drafted was naturally built?

 

I don't claim to know anything about what Braun did or did not put in his body. I have friends who have used all kinds of drugs, but that doesn't make me a druggie. That is guilt by association, which is not guilt. You are speculating about things you could not possibly know. It's possible he did all kinds of things, but it's also possible that he did not. I know people are upset with what's panned out over the past couple of years with him, and I guess everyone is free to type whatever they want on an internet message board, but I don't think it's fair to put out opinions and assumptions about people as fact. I leave that to reporters and politicians :-)

 

I think it is a reasonable assumption that now that Braun is facing a lifetime ban if caught with PED's again, he is finally off them for the first time since High School and the .262 BA/.753 OPS Braun of the last 2 years is all he ever would have been without chemical enhancements

 

I think that's an assumption. Maybe time will tell whether or not it's reasonable.

 

Melky Cabrera got a gigantic contract after hitting .100 OPS points higher than his recent career uptick. A-Rod got a $250 million contract. Poo Holes got a $250 million contract. There are lots of reasons to do steroids once in the league.

 

Valid point. Money is a big motivator, and the mammoth amounts of money floating around the MLB can motivate anyone to do what they can to get a bigger piece of the pie.

[monty57]

I think the biggest reason we have a misunderstanding here is because you don't realize how great I think Scooter Gennett is. I think he could be an elite MLB hitter with more development. I think he's got a great swing.

 

I hope you are right. The Brewers could use something good to happen.