Brewers "Franchise Four" from MLB.com

[Baldkin]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/all_star/y2015/franchise_four.jsp?c_id=mil

 

Here's their list of 8 to choose from:

 

Vote for the TOP FOUR players in Milwaukee Brewers franchise history.

 

The players from each group receiving the most votes will be honored at the MLB All-Star Game in Cincinnati.

Ryan Braun | RF

Cecil Cooper | 1B

Prince Fielder | 1B

Rollie Fingers | RP

Jim Gantner | 2B

Paul Molitor | DH

Gorman Thomas | CF

Robin Yount | SS

 

First off: What is Gorman Thomas doing on there? No Higuera or Sheets?

 

edit: Added link

[BrewCrewForever]

I voted Yount, Molitor, Cooper and Braun.

[patrickgpe]

this seems like a silly exercise but i voted for Yount, Molitor, Cooper, and Gantner.

 

Kept Braun off due to PED controversy and struggling since the NLCS. If he gets healthy and puts up numbers even close to his 2011 season than he obviously will be on the Brewers Mt Rushmore.

[craigharmann]

Yount, Molly, Coop and Gantner

[rickh150]

Yount Molly coop and gumby

[rickh150]

Make that, in true batting order order..... Molitor Yount Cooper.........Gantner

[MrTPlush]

this seems like a silly exercise but i voted for Yount, Molitor, Cooper, and Gantner.

 

Kept Braun off due to PED controversy and struggling since the NLCS. If he gets healthy and puts up numbers even close to his 2011 season than he obviously will be on the Brewers Mt Rushmore.

 

Do people forget 2012?....

 

I agree completely, but he did have a post PED year that was MVP caliber.

[folly412]

Yount, Molitor, Cooper, Gantner. If I can have one not on the list...Jenkins!

[DuWayne Steurer]

In 8 years, Braun is a 36 WAR player. In 17 years, Gantner put up 22 WAR. Without the specter of PEDS, Braun is still 5X the player Gantner is.

 

This will turn into a popularity contest, just like every other 'fan voting' event.

[3and2Fastball]

If Braun never returns to All-Star status post PED suspension, it is arguable that he has hamstrung the organization in such a way that negates MVP/All-Star seasons that could be seen as tainted anyways. That hurts the Brewers franchise in all sorts of ways when the "Face of the Franchise" ends up like that.

 

More more than merely a popularity contest.

 

They sunk a ton of money into Braun and it could've been the biggest mistake this franchise has ever made, contractually. We'll see. They've got $109 million still tied into Braun over the next 7 years

 

But at this point I see Braun as being pretty far from a "Top 4"

[3and2Fastball]

this seems like a silly exercise but i voted for Yount, Molitor, Cooper, and Gantner.

 

Kept Braun off due to PED controversy and struggling since the NLCS. If he gets healthy and puts up numbers even close to his 2011 season than he obviously will be on the Brewers Mt Rushmore.

 

Do people forget 2012?....

 

I agree completely, but he did have a post PED year that was MVP caliber.

 

It is pretty naive to just assume, at this point, that 2012 was a "Post PED" year.

 

I'd prefer to just look at him "Post PED suspension", and he hasn't looked anywhere near the same. Yes there've been lots of injuries, but lots of injuries are symptomatic of a player no longer being on PED's. I'm not saying that I am 100% certain on this, but it certainly looks suspicious

[jjkoestler]

Moli, Yount, Braun, Prince

[bork]

Molitor, Yount,Cooper, Fingers. Fingers wasn't around for a long time, but he was a huge part of the early 80's. HOF, Cy Young, MVP.

[TooLiveBrew]

this seems like a silly exercise but i voted for Yount, Molitor, Cooper, and Gantner.

 

Kept Braun off due to PED controversy and struggling since the NLCS. If he gets healthy and puts up numbers even close to his 2011 season than he obviously will be on the Brewers Mt Rushmore.

 

Do people forget 2012?....

 

I agree completely, but he did have a post PED year that was MVP caliber.

 

It is pretty naive to just assume, at this point, that 2012 was a "Post PED" year.

 

I'd prefer to just look at him "Post PED suspension", and he hasn't looked anywhere near the same. Yes there've been lots of injuries, but lots of injuries are symptomatic of a player no longer being on PED's. I'm not saying that I am 100% certain on this, but it certainly looks suspicious

It's really not. He was likely tested a ton during the '12 season.

[Bombers]

Moli, Yount, Prince and write-in Sheets. I agree with keeping Braun off for now. He has a lot to prove. Sheeter was amazing to watch for so long. His curve ball was ridiculous and probably the best pitcher we have had for more than a rental (Greinke Sabathia) in quite some time.

[TURBO]

Moli, Yount, Prince and write-in Sheets. I agree with keeping Braun off for now. He has a lot to prove. Sheeter was amazing to watch for so long. His curve ball was ridiculous and probably the best pitcher we have had for more than a rental (Greinke Sabathia) in quite some time.

 

Molitor

Yount

Cooper

Prince

 

Reluctantly, I put Molitor on the list, but I still hold a grudge, a grudge that only .0000009 % of Brewers fans agree with. I am in the minority on Molitor and his reasons for leaving...

 

Yount is a given.

 

I loved Gantner and Gorman, but don't feel they belong on this list.

 

If only we could have held onto Prince, but I'm still including him as one of my choices.

 

Sheets, had he been able to stay healthy is an obvious choice, and I want to include him, but just can't.

 

I was a huge Cooper fan back in the day, he always seemed so clutch.

 

I want to put Braun on this list really badly, but just can't do it. I still love the guy as a player, and if he comes back and even resembles his pre-PED self, he will be on this list at #2 in my eyes. For now, I can't add him.

 

I don't think Rollie was here long enough to be in the top 4 .

[Boomer5]

Moli, Yount, Prince and write-in Sheets. I agree with keeping Braun off for now. He has a lot to prove. Sheeter was amazing to watch for so long. His curve ball was ridiculous and probably the best pitcher we have had for more than a rental (Greinke Sabathia) in quite some time.

 

Molitor

Yount

Cooper

Prince

 

Reluctantly, I put Molitor on the list, but I still hold a grudge, a grudge that only .0000009 % of Brewers fans agree with. I am in the minority on Molitor and his reasons for leaving...

 

Yount is a given.

 

I loved Gantner and Gorman, but don't feel they belong on this list.

 

If only we could have held onto Prince, but I'm still including him as one of my choices.

 

Sheets, had he been able to stay healthy is an obvious choice, and I want to include him, but just can't.

 

I was a huge Cooper fan back in the day, he always seemed so clutch.

 

I want to put Braun on this list really badly, but just can't do it. I still love the guy as a player, and if he comes back and even resembles his pre-PED self, he will be on this list at #2 in my eyes. For now, I can't add him.

 

I don't think Rollie was here long enough to be in the top 4 ever...

 

I agree completely. Prince has to round out the top 4 with the top 3 being obvious. The only other guy Id even consider over Prince is Teddy but his career wasn't long enough.

 

Braun is just sad. Should have been right up there with Young and Mollie if not the best Brewer ever.......Sad Trombone.

[logan82]

Do people forget 2012?....

 

I agree completely, but he did have a post PED year that was MVP caliber.

 

It is pretty naive to just assume, at this point, that 2012 was a "Post PED" year.

 

I'd prefer to just look at him "Post PED suspension", and he hasn't looked anywhere near the same. Yes there've been lots of injuries, but lots of injuries are symptomatic of a player no longer being on PED's. I'm not saying that I am 100% certain on this, but it certainly looks suspicious

It's really not. He was likely tested a ton during the '12 season.

Doesn't mean he wasn't using something. Just means he didn't get caught. Just like he didn't get caught for years before.

[MNBrew]

Doesn't mean he was, either. Supposedly he was tested more than anyone else in MLB that year due to the positive test in the 2011 playoffs. Just because you're suspicious and want to doubt doesn't mean you're right.

 

There's an integrity issue with Braun which no one can fully know now and regarding which only time will tell the truth on IF he can stay healthy. To my thinking, Braun's MVP-caliber 2012 legitimizes the quality of his play from all other years. His production never drastically changed 'til his 2013 injuries & suspension.

 

In the end, Braun & Cooper make my list right below Molitor & Yount, who I'd rank 1-2 in that order. Robin's more loved because he stuck around (b/c he wasn't screwed by Bando's contract offer) even though Mollie was the far better player at the time he left -- the contracts offered should've been reversed, with Mollie offered the raise & Yount the reduction (seriously, look at their stats, especially how pedestrian or less Yount became immediately after his '89 MVP year!). I never understood that at the time, and while it's a rare black mark in the first part of his tenure, I can't ever look favorably on Bando's cumulative work as a GM because of it (the erosion of the franchise (MLB & the whole farm system) in his later years providing a suitably lousy ending to his tenure).

 

Regarding the others, IMO....

 

- Gantner, even though "one of us" and quite loyal & beloved, was solidly average at best and thus doesn't belong on the list.

- Thomas was a HR-hitting hero from the glory days but wasn't a terribly good overall hitter and, in spite of his all-out approach in the OF, thus doesn't belong on the list.

- Fingers had almost 2 full top-notch years on the Brewers and was largely below average thereafter once he finally made it back -- definitely a HOF'er but not a Top-4 Brewer even remotely.

- Prince is the closest to Braun as #4 on the list. But he was never as consistent a clutch hitter as Braun and was a league-bottom defensive 1B while Braun is a solid-to-plus OF whose only true defensive black mark is the year he played 3B.

 

If you want to start casting stones at Braun, cast 'em at Mollie, too. If you're going the route of the morality soapbox, then that approach needs to be applied consistently. We learned in the 2000s that the effective of steroids on the body are mainly in the realm of aiding with recovery time & sustaining an energy level, really much the same as the effects of cocaine. If many players' drug issues in the '70s & '80s -- at least with uppers like coke, let alone things like amphetamines and "pep pills" and "greenies" -- got the media coverage and obsessive/sensationalistic public scrutiny (tabloid journalism, really, in many respects) then that they would if they'd happened now, there well could be another whole generation of HOF'ers not eligible for the Hall. The current selectivity is just screwy for the highly uneven "playing field" of character judgement that it's created. Gaylord Perry cheated blatantly for a large portion of his career -- "intently cheating to gain competitive advantage" was the gist of the phrase we heard all the time for several years in the steriod-outing period -- but everyone laughs about his tactics and has no problem sitting on the dais at Cooperstown with him. Ditto for Tony LaRussa, who admitted 3 months after his retirement that he indeed ordered his pitchers to throw at Braun in that September 2011 series, lying through his teeth AND going on the attack in the media about the accusations as much or more as Braun -- cheating not only to gain competitive advantage but also blatantly risking the health/career of opposing players, which is another whole level of compromised integrity, especially as the guy in charge of the team.

 

I'm not condoning steroids, cocaine or other uppers, or the actions of either Braun or Mollie. Rather, I agree big-time with Jayson Stark and Jim Palmer, that in the end, guys with the requisite numbers absolutely should get into the HOF and history should be allowed to tell & judge the rest of the story.

 

. . . And while this isn't an HOF discussion, the nature of what the survey's about essentially is focused on similar performance-based attributes.

[folly412]

How many times does it let you vote? At this rate my write-ins will get Geoff Jenkins in there, just try and stop me.

[RockCoCougars]

Give me Yount, Molitor, Coop and Prince for this with Braun just missing the cut. Where is Don Money on the voting list? He and George Scott are just criminally underrated in Brewer annals. On that note, I love Rollie, but he has gotten a ton of mileage off his Brewers stint based on 2 great partial seasons.

[The stache]

Yount

Molitor

Cooper

Braun

 

Fielder is 5a.

 

Love Higuera and Sheets, but they don't crack that top 4 or 5.

 

The backlash against Braun is silly. Yes, he screwed up. And yes, the last few years have been sub par per his own excellent standards because of a nagging injury that would derail any great hitter in history, if they had to deal with it.

 

But the first six seasons of his career are one of he greatest first six years by any hitter in the history of Major League Baseball, and to casually gloss over that because of the PED scandal is absurd.

 

Putting Jim Gantner ahead of Ryan Braun...is just humorous on so many levels, I can't think straight because I'm laughing so hard. I was the biggest Jim Gantner fan when he played, because if I were a Major League player, I'd probably have ended up like Gantner. Fairly good hitter, occasional power, occasional speed, very good defender. But nothing to write home about. He was a home grown talent that spent his entire career in Milwaukee. But nothing he ever did approaches anything that Braun has done. His best season was in 1983, and he had a .730 OPS. Braun, who was a shadow of his former self last year, had a .777 OPS. In other words, Braun's worst season smokes Gantner's best.

 

If this is a popularity contest, then fine. Why not put Gorman Thomas on there. He's as big a Brewer now as he's ever been. He's always at the ballpark, always at spring training. I'd love to toss down a few brewskis with Stormin' Gorman. That would be great.

 

But if I'm picking the best player the Brewers have ever had, a list without Ryan Braun is just silly. Even if he did take PEDs for more than that one post season, his natural ability is still better than just about anybody that has ever played for the Brewers, save Yount or Molitor. What, do you guys honestly think that PEDs gave Braun a .312 career average through six seasons? No, his eye, his talent, and his hard work made that happen. Without any PEDs, a healthy Ryan Braun will put up a .300 30 HR 100 RBI season in his sleep. Bank on it.

 

He was smoking the ball this spring. Once this latest little setback goes away, I expect we'll see him smashing the ball all over the field again.

 

Face it, guys. Braun is the preeminent offensive force in Brewers history. You can still be angry at him if you so choose. But to leave him off this list is letting your emotions cloud your judgement.