What Many Brewers Fans May Think, But Dare Not Say (Yet)

[reillymcshane]

This is also why I thought this offseason hinged on Ramirez. He was obviously slowing down, and would be overpaid if he returned, but we weren't going to find any decent alternative if he left. We know how it played out, but I wonder if he had left if Attanasio would have used that as the sign to "play for the future," which up to this point has not been his m.o.

I don't know if Mark A. will ever play for the future. He's shown he'll spend on aging veterans to plug holes rather than go into rebuild mode. If A-Ram had left, I bet we would have done something like traded for a guy like Casey McGehee or Chris Johnson.

[monty57]

I don't know if Mark A. will ever play for the future. He's shown he'll spend on aging veterans to plug holes rather than go into rebuild mode. If A-Ram had left, I bet we would have done something like traded for a guy like Casey McGehee or Chris Johnson.

 

I know. It may take a scenario like the one in the originally linked article for this thread in order to shake Attanasio, but it's always fun for me to ponder other possible paths :-)

[pacopete4]

I don't know if Mark A. will ever play for the future. He's shown he'll spend on aging veterans to plug holes rather than go into rebuild mode. If A-Ram had left, I bet we would have done something like traded for a guy like Casey McGehee or Chris Johnson.

 

I know. It may take a scenario like the one in the originally linked article for this thread in order to shake Attanasio, but it's always fun for me to ponder other possible paths :-)

 

 

A total rebuild is not neccessary in my opinion but continuing to make smart trades(Segura, Sardinas etc..), signing guys to fill holes (Aram, Lind, etc..), making a few international signings (Lara) and hitting on draft picks is perfectly fine with me. It could turn out where we have Peralta and Nelson as a 1-2 punch for dirt cheap, and that was done without a rebuild. Yes, we have holes that we all like to complain about but honestly, who doesn't? There are absolutely no guarentees when you rebuild. We could rebuild for two decades like it took from the mid to late 80's to mid 2000's. Meanwhile we'd go back to not getting fan support and not money coming in. An owner, that is proven that he wants good things to happen in MKE, would go away.

[danzig6767]

I'm far more worried about Braun having a good year than Ramirez. Braun is still owed a lot of money, Ramirez is gone after the season.

[adambr2]

I really miss the feeling of this team from the '07/'08 years. Yeah, they fell short in '07, but the lineup with just so loaded with young potential star players. Braun and Fielder looked like potentially the best 2 players in baseball, Hardy was becoming a star, we still thought Weeks would be a star, and guys like Hart really added some real young talent as far as future role players. Yo was breaking into the league.

 

It's really hard to get that same feeling and excitement from this squad. The best 2 players are closing in on 30, and in the case of Gomez, almost certainly not here beyond next year. The other key players on this team are in their 30s (Braun, Garza ), or in some cases, closer to 40 (Ramirez, Lohse ). Some young talent has filled the gaps with guys like Davis, Genett, and Nelson, but they just don't have the ceilings of the guys that we had coming up in '07/'08 to produce that same feeling. Peralta is essentially the 'new' Yo, and an exciting young talent, but there just isn't much else there.

 

It honestly feels to me like the end of an era and having reached a point where rebuild is inevitable. There just aren't strong enough building blocks left in the organization to build a solid foundation upon.

[wildcat2237]

I really miss the feeling of this team from the '07/'08 years.

 

It honestly feels to me like the end of an era and having reached a point where rebuild is inevitable. There just aren't strong enough building blocks left in the organization to build a solid foundation upon.

 

Agree with every word. Its almost impossible to get excited about this bunch as it seems that everybody except Mark Attanasio thinks they are no good.

 

What makes it even more sad, is that the owner, an attorney and investment guy, is running the show and making baseball decisions.

 

I fear that the longer the franchise waits to rebuild the longer and more arduous it will be. The rebuild needed to happen one of the last two off-seasons, and with every day they wait it will just get more and more difficult.

 

I am sincerely hoping for a mid-season, pre-deadline firesale. This team has enough talent left on the big league roster with Gomez, Lucroy, and Peralta that they could definitely re-stock the system. Will it suck to see those guys go? Yup. But at this point its necessary. This team needs 10-12 good prospects to add to the system.

 

The clock is ticking.

[Pugger]

We really shouldn't be surprised at what we are seeing so far this season. We saw a sneak peek at it when the club imploded last August/September. If you can't score/hit you can't win. Period. Fiers deserved a better fate yesterday. Even with a new hitting coach it appears our approach still sucks.

[monty57]

We really shouldn't be surprised at what we are seeing so far this season.

 

Not surprised, but disappointed. I thought this was the last year that the Brewers might have an outside shot of making a playoff run. The only "positive" I see from the team having such a bad start is that it makes it more likely they will get something back for Lohse, Parra, Ramirez and Broxton in mid-season trades. Some of them may not bring much back, but at least they can get something, even if it's just salary relief for someone like Broxton. Of course, if they continue playing this poorly, fans will lose interest quickly, and a significant drop off in ticket sales mixed with a record payroll could lead ownership to make drastic changes, and that might lead to a few years of payroll slashing, which may be necessary, but it wouldn't be much fun watching the MLB team.

[Boomer5]

I really miss the feeling of this team from the '07/'08 years. Yeah, they fell short in '07, but the lineup with just so loaded with young potential star players. Braun and Fielder looked like potentially the best 2 players in baseball, Hardy was becoming a star, we still thought Weeks would be a star, and guys like Hart really added some real young talent as far as future role players. Yo was breaking into the league.

 

It's really hard to get that same feeling and excitement from this squad. The best 2 players are closing in on 30, and in the case of Gomez, almost certainly not here beyond next year. The other key players on this team are in their 30s (Braun, Garza ), or in some cases, closer to 40 (Ramirez, Lohse ). Some young talent has filled the gaps with guys like Davis, Genett, and Nelson, but they just don't have the ceilings of the guys that we had coming up in '07/'08 to produce that same feeling. Peralta is essentially the 'new' Yo, and an exciting young talent, but there just isn't much else there.

 

It honestly feels to me like the end of an era and having reached a point where rebuild is inevitable. There just aren't strong enough building blocks left in the organization to build a solid foundation upon.

 

I agree completely. This is tough team to get excited about. It's essentially the same team that finished last half of 2014 in disastrous fashion. The good players are just good. The old players are looking very old.

 

This is the result of the horrendous drafts. We produce guys like Scooter and Khrush, who are just above replacement types, while the Cardinals have a factory of plus plus talented guys year after year. Throw in the dramatic decline of Braun and you do not have a recipe of success.

 

The good news is Luc, Peralta and what I hope is Nelson. I will be spitting blood when I see Rodon pitching for the White Sox this year. What a mismanaged player development program.

[SoupTown]

What an interesting turn of events. It is almost like the Crew has 20 games to show something... or the entire mob is tradable. The goal would be trade ever player that cannot be here in 2017. The last half of 15 and all of 16 is the rebuild. You need to market the team as the NEW FUTURE.

 

ARAM you hope against hope he can somehow have a decent first couple of months. He is mid year trade.

Lohse is mid year trade.

Broxton is mid year trade.

Go Go is Gone Gone

Lind is traded back to an AL team.

Parra mid year trade. I hope he replaces Gomez well.

Cotts I hope has a blinder for a dozen appearances, so we can get a prospect

I am even trading Segura as he will be in last arby year in 2017. But maybe he is a keeper. I am not sure.

Davis is like Jean. He is tradable as he will be expensive in two years, then gone!

 

However, a point is to try to con the public (or catch lightning in a bottle that 2016 can have young guys lead us to the promised land); but, in reality, 2016 becomes a rehearsal for 2017. The problem is we do not have any impact talent it seems that will become the new leaders. So end of 2015 and 2016 could be really, really ugly... albeit cheap for salaries.

 

If you get rid of all the above (keep Jean and Khris), you shed SIXTY million in payroll. Replacing them with pre arby guys you end up with a team salary around $50 mill. And you hope in trading all the buggers you end up with three or four prospects that become your end 15 or 2016 rookies. If you run at team at $50-$60 mill for end 2015 and 2016 you then have room to add a player or two in free agency (mind you, I dont like that much, but you may need to do it - unless your 2016 crop develops and you happily pay the arbies and extensions as they develop - that is my first preference.

 

So, my cheapie cheap 2016 team is

 

Peralta, Garza, Nelson, Fiers, Thornburg

Lucroy, Clark, Scooter, Segura, Jimenez, Davis, 'Somebody', Braun

We actually, in house, can have a decent pen, I think.. and our Frankie (scary as can be, is around through '17)

The bench is Maldy, Rogers, H Gomez, Peterson, Shafer?

 

The pen would be, going backwards

 

Frankie, Smith, Jeffress, Knebel, Blazek, Henderson?, Wooten

 

The above will not disgrace, but some guys really need to improve. And if they do not, well, it will start a long term of horrors - until some group of minor leaguers and/or hopefully the prospects we obtain mid 2015 and offseason 2015 are actually good.

 

In short, if in 20 or 30 games we are not singing the praises of this 25 man roster... it needs to be blown up. If we are singing praises, then 2017 will be good also, as almost all are coming back... just not the salary of ARAM and Parra. So you end up with a better team CHEAPER.

 

Man, I hope this current mob will pick it up. If not, it can be years before we have a chance to be decent.

[Outlander]

I like the cheapie team for 2017 but trying to forecast who will be on the team is too difficult as they will get cheap players in return if these guys are traded. If Jimenez still ended up the third baseman after getting rid of all of these players I would be pretty upset. Also Segura's last year of arbitration is 2018, not 2017.

[wildcat2237]

SoupTown,

 

Two comments on your post.

 

#1. I think a 2017 ETA to compete is too soon. At this point, the majority of our talent is in the lower minors. I would anticipate that 2018 would be the soonest this franchise could compete.

 

#2. I would hate to see Lucroy go, especially with his team friendly deal. But him and Peralta have a lot of value and are the guys that would need to be traded in order to bring back the Nelson Cruz's and Carlos Gomez's of the future. Broxton, Parra, and Lohse might net something, but the likely best case scenario for a Lohse trade brings back a guy like Mitch Hanigan. Good prospect, but not likely to turn into anything more than a future Khris Davis or Logan Schafer. Sadly, you have to give a lot to get a lot.

 

The Brewers are going to have to gut their MLB team in order to acquire the 10-15 minor league players who could revive the franchise in the next few years.

[bill hAll Star]

Gomez and Lohse are who I'd most like to trade to be honest if they are done with this thing, I just can't imagine Mark doing it. Tons of value for those guys and I don't think either will age well into their 30s.

[adambr2]

Gomez and Lohse are who I'd most like to trade to be honest if they are done with this thing, I just can't imagine Mark doing it. Tons of value for those guys and I don't think either will age well into their 30s.

 

Lohse isn't worth much at all. Short-term rental, expensive, he's 36, and teams may be scared away by his start this year especially because of his age.

 

I'd be thrilled to get a top 100 prospect for him, which I doubt they could get and they would certainly have to eat some salary either way.

 

Gomez, Lucroy, and Peralta are the only guys on our roster with a lot of straight up trade value.

[trwi7]

Gomez and Lohse are who I'd most like to trade to be honest if they are done with this thing, I just can't imagine Mark doing it. Tons of value for those guys and I don't think either will age well into their 30s.

 

Lohse isn't worth much at all. Short-term rental, expensive, he's 36, and teams may be scared away by his start this year especially because of his age.

 

I'd be thrilled to get a top 100 prospect for him, which I doubt they could get and they would certainly have to eat some salary either way.

 

Gomez, Lucroy, and Peralta are the only guys on our roster with a lot of straight up trade value.

 

Think he meant Lucroy.

[MrTPlush]

I surely hope we cound extend someone like Peralta for an additional year or two. I also wouldn't mind locking up Davis if he was open to a pretty team friendly deal...even Segura if he has a nice year.

 

You can't just trade everything away...we have to keep some kind of reliable core.

[adambr2]

I'm more concerned with who we acquire than who we trade. There are no untouchables on this roster. Too often in recent history, we've insisted on getting MLB ready talent in a trade. When you do that, you sacrifice upside. That just doesn't make much sense for us anymore. We need franchise cornerstones, not role players. We already have a roster full of role players.

 

I'd rather get a guy who is 3 years away from MLB with star potential than a young player coming into the league with a ceiling of an average MLB starter.

[DHonks]

I'd rather trade nobody. I think we should be good for 85 wins given our rotation. I take that back, I'd trade Parra in a second. I'd also consider trading Seggy with a good year, unless they think he can play 3b.

[adambr2]

I'd rather trade nobody. I think we should be good for 85 wins given our rotation. I take that back, I'd trade Parra in a second. I'd also consider trading Seggy with a good year, unless they think he can play 3b.

 

They've already dug themselves a deep enough hole to where winning 85 games would require 14 over .500 ball from here on out, or 83-69.

 

This team is not 2-8 bad but they are most definitely not 83-69 good.

[TURBO]

I think they ARE in fact, 2-8 bad...

[Blunt36]

I think they ARE in fact, 2-8 bad...

 

.200 would be by far the worst winning percentage for a team in the modern era. Do you seriously think the 2015 Brewers are the worst baseball team of all time?

[danzig6767]

Nearly impossible for this team to score runs when the projected 2-3-4 hitters in Luc/Braun/Ramirez are sporting .457/.545/.400 OPS numbers at this point.

 

Hell, Hector Gomez in only 7 at bats has as many extra bases hits as those three above have combined in nearly 100 at bats. Not only that, Braun and Ramirez have combined for a whopping one walk.

 

There clearly are other factors in the poor start like the bullpen struggles, but so long as those three guys are being out machines with zero power production, the offense will remain stuck in mud. Even worse with Gomez being on the DL.

[brewmann04]

I would be shocked if this was a 85 win team,they have to make changes to this lineup where they can't depend on Home runs all the time.

[SoupTown]

re the 'depend on home runs', we are 29th or 30th of all teams in home runs. And we aint walking. And we aint having any batting average.

 

That is wild that our cornerstone offensive guys are sporting OPS in the 400s and 500s. WOW!

[DHonks]

It's 10 games. No reason to panic. It's frustrating watching how efficient the Cards are. It's like they know when to work the count and when to hammer first pitches.

 

Still, our bullpen should be a strength. Our rotation should be a strength. Realistically, baseball is a game decided by winning and losing streaks. Over 120 games, teams will play roughly .500. The first place teams have more long winning streaks and fewer prolonged losing streaks. The last place teams have more losing streaks. Right now we're in a losing streak. We could just as easily win 8 of our next 10.