Still too dumb and undisciplined (Gomez) and passive (Roenicke) [See mod note in post #160]

[rickh150]

Favre and Gomez, huh?

 

Holmgren managed Favre better than Rhodes and Sherman. He wasn't afraid to tell Favre off... Favre changed under Holmgren... there was a progression which changed him from a gunslinger to a more rounded quarterback, a 3 time MVP. His INT went down every year from 93 to the Super Bowl year. The short passing game, the West Coast offense, allowed him to thrive.

 

Under Rhodes and Sherman, he had more freedom, and he made more mistakes. They got away from the short passing game. Neither coach had the balls to put him in his place. I'll put RR in this group of coaches.... not a bad coach, but a guy who isn't willing risk confrontation to get positive change from stars.

[FVBrewerFan]

The problem I have is RR hasn't even tried. He has said so more than once, that he doesn't want to reign Gomez in and you get the good with the bad. That's insane. Gomez is not a 9 year old, I'm sure if you approach him the right way and explain the difference between aggressive and stupid, he can understand it.

[pacopete4]

How do you know RR hasn't tried? He probably speaks with Gomez quite a bit and you just don't know it. Gomez plays the game differently than a lot of "American" style people would like, but that doesn't mean it cannot be effective.

[bjkrautk]

The problem I have is RR hasn't even tried. He has said so more than once, that he doesn't want to reign Gomez in and you get the good with the bad. That's insane. Gomez is not a 9 year old, I'm sure if you approach him the right way and explain the difference between aggressive and stupid, he can understand it.

 

Counterpoint: Gomez's major league OPS by season

 

2007 - .592 (139 PA)

2008 - .656 (614 PA)

2009 - .624 (349 PA)

2010 - .655 (318 PA)

------------------------

2011 - .679 (258 PA)

2012 - .768 (452 PA)

2013 - .844 (590 PA)

2014 - .833 (644 PA)

 

2011 was RR's first year as manager of the Brewers; Gomez's worst production under RR is better than his best seasons with the Mets and Twins. While some portion of that can be attributed to age, it was the change in philosophy under Roenicke which has allowed him to flourish in a way that he didn't under the preceding 3-4 managers (I'm not going to look for a breakdown between Yost or Sveum managing in 2010).

[FVBrewerFan]

How do you know RR hasn't tried? He probably speaks with Gomez quite a bit and you just don't know it. Gomez plays the game differently than a lot of "American" style people would like, but that doesn't mean it cannot be effective.

 

I already said how I know, he's said it himself. As recently as Spring Training this year to be precise. And I don't care if he plays American style or Russian style, stupid mistakes are an international language.

[FVBrewerFan]

Counterpoint: Gomez's major league OPS by season

 

What?? Nobody has said anything about his hitting. The discussion has been about poor base running, not throwing it to the right base, etc. ie mental errors.

[tmwiese55]

Exactly FV. That was one of my man points way back. It's not logical to think hitting like he currently is can't co-exist with not running into a ton of outs.

[danzig6767]

Now, neither one of those are automatic decisions. But any Manager should be judged on results, and he was 0-2 in those decisions.

 

Managers should be judged by process, players should be judged by results. If you think this was a smart move it doesn't matter if it fails, sometimes the 75% right choice is the wrong result, like 25% of the time. The worst thing you can be is results oriented with a manager.

Gomez has a low baseball IQ, it stinks but it is what it is. 3 different organizations have tried to fix this and all failed. It isn't the managers fault, it is just how the guy is.

 

I don't know why some just can't grasp this.

 

There are great talents in all sports who are also lower IQ players. Instincts and smarts for the game a player plays is as much of a skill which certain players possess in abundance, while others lack them.

 

Pick the sport and there will be players which drive fans crazy because that player or players will regularly make the same mistakes over again, regardless if new coaches/managers are in charge.

 

For example, Brandon Knight when he was with the Bucks. This was a guy with great physical gifts for a point guard. He was also very book smart. On the court though, while he did many things well, he just never could figure out how to consistently run a pick and roll properly. How to regularly diagnose what the defense was attempting to do even though he was a 4.0 student in the classroom. Multiple coaches tried to work with Knight on how to better run an offense. To run a pick and roll. When to deliver passes on a fast break. Knight is what he is though, a physical gifted guy and talented scorer, but simply not cerebral enough to ever be an upper tier starting point guard.

 

For some athletes, they don't have to think hard before making the right decision most of the time. It just happens naturally. The game moves slower for them in their minds. For others, the game moves faster and in turn they make more mistakes.

[lcbj68c]

^This. There seems to be an increase in the past 5 years or so in sports fandom that fans simply think if a player just WANTS to do something more that it will happen. ie, "he can't throw strikes, it must be mental" "he can't draw a walk, it must be mental" "he cant make over 65% of his free throws, it must be mental". This kind of thinking makes me crazy. As if they could just do it, if they wanted to. It must be all in their heads why they can't. This just simply isn't true. Most deficiencies can't be explained as being mental in origin. But it sure is a conveinent scapegoat for the average fan. "Eh, we'll just chalk it up to he's dumb and management puts up with it. Must be a mental problem"

[rickh150]

If RR said, "Gomez, you cannot steal 3rd with 2 outs," wouldn't that be enough? Shouldn't it be? Why can't this be done? Protect him from doing something dumb... save him from himself.

[danzig6767]

If RR said, "Gomez, you cannot steal 3rd with 2 outs," wouldn't that be enough? Shouldn't it be? Why can't this be done? Protect him from doing something dumb... save him from himself.

Because he shouldn't tell Carlos that he should never try to steal third with two outs. While a player needs to try that on a limited basis, if a really good opportunity is there, a baserunner can score multiple ways from third compared to second, like say a wild pitch, infield hit, or infield error.

 

There is a reason defenses try holding a quick baserunner close to second base, even with two outs. They understand that a baserunner has less opportunities to score from second base compared to third. No manager in baseball would tell Gomez what you asked for.

[jerichoholicninja]

If RR said, "Gomez, you cannot steal 3rd with 2 outs," wouldn't that be enough? Shouldn't it be? Why can't this be done? Protect him from doing something dumb... save him from himself.

Because he shouldn't tell Carlos that he should never try to steal third with two outs. While a player needs to try that on a limited basis, if a really good opportunity is there, a baserunner can score multiple ways from third compared to second, like say a wild pitch, infield hit, or infield error.

 

There is a reason defenses try holding a quick baserunner close to second base, even with two outs. They understand that a baserunner has less opportunities to score from second base compared to third. No manager in baseball would tell Gomez what you asked for.

 

I'd like to see the run expectancy chart but I would guess there is very little difference between scoring from 2nd with 2 outs and scoring from 3rd with 2 outs. This isn't high school where you have a good chance of a wild pitch or defensive error to score from 3rd. And especially with Gomez hitting at the top of the order he needs to not take the bat out of the middle of the order's hands by getting thrown out. Having him at 2nd messes with the defensive alignment more too as they try to hold him on. So, no, Gomez should never try and steal 3rd with 2 outs.

[tmwiese55]

Because he shouldn't tell Carlos that he should never try to steal third with two outs.

- you just said he doesn't have the baseball IQ to make this decision, so take it out of his hands.

 

For someone as fast Gomez and batting at the top of the order, so good hitters are hitting when he's on 2nd, the math will be drastically in favor of never attempting to steal 3rd and it's not even close. Especially when you factor in as you admit that he doesn't have a great baseball IQ to choose his spots wisely.

 

 

I couldn't really watch last nights game, but the last few games there hasn't been much of these mistakes to complain about that I can remember. Trying to think positively that they are showing improvement from last year on this issue.

[adambr2]

Unless the pitcher has completely fallen asleep and you can get into 3rd standing up, it is never a good idea to try to steal 3rd with 2 outs. The marginal chance of an infield single or passed ball on the following AB making it worthwhile is not near worth the risk of making that 3rd out at 3rd with a runner already in scoring position.

[bjkrautk]

Counterpoint: Gomez's major league OPS by season

 

What?? Nobody has said anything about his hitting. The discussion has been about poor base running, not throwing it to the right base, etc. ie mental errors.

 

I don't know that you get the production the Brewers have seen out of Gomez if the manager is constantly hen-pecking the baseball IQ issues you're talking about.

 

When you put a constant stream of thoughts into a guy's head, he starts thinking and not acting on instinct. The offensive upswing that I brought up was a conscious effort by Gomez and Roenicke to stop trying to make Carlos into the high-OBP, traditional leadoff hitter the Mets and Twins wanted him to be & instead show off his natural talent.

 

I suspect that Roenicke would rather accept that Gomez is going to do something that makes a manager shake his head every once in awhile, believing the trade-off is that he's also going to make the occasional eye-popping highlight play as a result.

[TURBO]

How do you know RR hasn't tried? He probably speaks with Gomez quite a bit and you just don't know it. Gomez plays the game differently than a lot of "American" style people would like, but that doesn't mean it cannot be effective.

 

How do you know he HAS tried?

 

American style people?

 

Please explain...

[fondybrewfan]

That argument can go around in circles forever. No one here can prove one way or another what happens in the locker room and what instructions RR gives if any.

 

Regarding Gomez everyone has heard anecdotal evidence in the past of other coaches trying to reign him in with less than desirable effects. I don't think you can control his aggression in one area of his game without negatively affecting other parts of this game. The guy has one speed and plays with reckless abandon in all phases. Of course this is my opinion; but it seems like the current hyper aggressive Gomez brings out much more positives than negatives.

 

Probably the biggest reason he makes the mistakes he does on the base paths and in the field is that he is extremely confident in his abilities. He thinks he can take that base every time and there is nothing the other team can do. He thinks he can throw a bead to 3rd and get a guy instead of hitting the cut off man. Obviously some times those decisions don't work out and everyone criticizes him for it. Maybe you can call not fundamentally sound or perhaps overconfidence. Frankly I don't really care; I gladly take the good with the bad.

[pacopete4]

 

How do you know he HAS tried?

I don't know. No one does. That was my point. You cannot bag on Roenicke when we are not privy to what actually goes on with this team. He probably has had discussions with Gomez, like any coach/manager would, but who actually knows?

 

American style people?

American style of baseball is fundamentals, play the game a certain way or you are doing it wrong. I've been around enough coaches who think there is only ONE way to play this game and if you don't play the game that way, you are doing it wrong and it won't work. Where Gomez comes from, like a lot of the players now, they come with flair and they play the game a lot differently than a lot of American style players. If you're trying to make this a racist thing, you're way... way off.

 

Please explain...

[monty57]

If RR said, "Gomez, you cannot steal 3rd with 2 outs," wouldn't that be enough? Shouldn't it be? Why can't this be done? Protect him from doing something dumb... save him from himself.

Because he shouldn't tell Carlos that he should never try to steal third with two outs. While a player needs to try that on a limited basis, if a really good opportunity is there, a baserunner can score multiple ways from third compared to second, like say a wild pitch, infield hit, or infield error.

 

There is a reason defenses try holding a quick baserunner close to second base, even with two outs. They understand that a baserunner has less opportunities to score from second base compared to third. No manager in baseball would tell Gomez what you asked for.

 

Why not just have the base coach give him signals when to steal in that situation, i.e. "You have a red light unless the coach gives you the green light."

[rickh150]

Right on, Monty.

[rickh150]

Gomez has done enough stupid things this season alone to warrant a change of attitude from everyone on this thread that supported Gomez. This thread originated before the season even started, mind you. To all of you liberal, nobody does anything wrong, give him a pat on the back, " he does more good than bad, accept the bad" Brewers fans, what more does he have to do to get him to be sat down a couple of days for his stupidity. Will that help? It can't hurt. We are losing anyway with him and quite frankly, because of him! Letting him play everyday sure hasn't worked!!!!!!

 

The man has no clue ..., NO CLUE.... how to run the bases. Rec softball players are light years ahead of him.

 

Now, he just hot doubled off 2nd down by four in the 4th, crushing a rally. More over, he didn't even dive back into the base correctly! He beats it back if he touches base with fingers instead of palms! Unstinking believable! The depth of his cluelessness knows no bounds....

 

It is on Counsell now! Try something..... Make it public, yes public, that this is total crap. Be pissed that we are losing ball games because his stupid play. Totally fixable! Wild stallions are trained. 18 year old morons are trained in the military.... Work on base situations with him to death ... Show video clips of his repeated stupid throws and running errors. Poor ol Gomez is getting picked on, right???? Waaaaaaaaaa!!!!! We can't upset him, right? Why not? He's been ticken us off for years. Try something new. Tick him off, sit em, trade em. What we have done thus far hasn't worked?

[MrTPlush]

The man has no clue ..., NO CLUE.... how to run the bases. Women softball players are light years ahead of him.

 

Now, he just hot doubled off 2nd down by four in the 4th, crushing a rally. More over, he didn't even dive back into the base correctly! He beats it back if he touches base with fingers instead of palms! Unstinking believable! The depth of his cluelessness knows no bounds....

 

If you are going to sit here and call someone stupid and say they have no clue maybe you should at least learn what you are talking about first. You DO NOT slide into a base with your fingers!! Well I guess if you want to break your fingers(Segura) maybe you would. So please before you go around insulting a player and being arm chair coach you should probably learn what you are talking about first. You sound like a fool with what you are calling him and you are so badly wrong yourself.

[rickh150]

Disagree, Mr. T.... He could have grazed fingers on base instead of waiting to plop palms on base.... I dove head first into 2nd and 3rd many times.... You?

[rickh150]

Also, Mr. T, you are missing the point..... Is baserunning a problem here? Respectfully, we need to fix this, right?

[adambr2]

Gomez has done enough stupid things this season alone to warrant a change of attitude from everyone on this thread that supported Gomez. This thread originated before the season even started, mind you. To all of you liberal, nobody does anything wrong, give him a pat on the back, " he does more good than bad, accept the bad" Brewers fans, what more does he have to do to get him to be sat down a couple of days for his stupidity. Will that help? It can't hurt. We are losing anyway with him and quite frankly, because of him! Letting him play everyday sure hasn't worked!!!!!!

 

It is on Counsell now! Try something..... Make it public, yes public, that this is total crap. Be pissed that we are losing ball games because his stupid play ... Show video clips of his repeated stupid throws and running errors. Tick him off, sit em, trade em. What we have done thus far hasn't worked?

 

#1 - Gomez is, far and away, better than the next best options we have to replace him both at the MLB level and in the minors. You want to see Logan Schafer play more instead of Gomez?

 

#2 - Given the state of our franchise and the remainder left on Gomez' contract, he is, perhaps moreso than anyone else on the team, an ideal trade piece. I can't think of a worse idea to kill his trade value more than making a public spectacle of his baserunning mistakes and benching him.