Still too dumb and undisciplined (Gomez) and passive (Roenicke) [See mod note in post #160]

[logan82]

There do measure base running and the Brewers are exactly average in 2014.

[FVBrewerFan]

They TRY to measure base-running. But there is no differentiation between a 75% chance of getting an extra base or 5% chance. In other words, every base-running event is unique. Some are great plays by the defense, some are 50/50 plays, some are flat-out bone-headed blunders.

[tmwiese55]

solid post Thurston, I totally get it.

 

It's been a while since I read moneyball but yea what you said was the big theme for team construction. I guess what I was thinking is when it came to emphasizing obp, and then being ok putting fat guys at leadoff with good obps because it's not worthing risking the out by stealing anyway. It's fair to say this is a different era though, back then you never wanted to risk that out because of the massive amount of homers, not the case anymore. I get your points about our specific team needing to push the envelope and take the risks but I still think the math would work out for us not to burn the outs so willy nilly.

 

Hey, we're only three games in so hopefully things will still improve on this front from last year. Sweep Pitt and we're all happy again

[FVBrewerFan]

More RR shananigans. 4/8 vs Rockies: Admitted Smith would have been a better match-up than Broxton for that inning, but "Brox is our set-up man." I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that reasoning.

 

Part 2: Pitcher on deck, and you pitch to the #8 hitter, who in turn burns you.

 

Now, neither one of those are automatic decisions. But any Manager should be judged on results, and he was 0-2 in those decisions.

[Thurston Fluff]

http://m.brewers.mlb.com/news/article/117160984/brewers-khris-davis-makes-show-stealing-catch-in-left-field

 

I get your points about our specific team needing to push the envelope and take the risks but I still think the math would work out for us not to burn the outs so willy nilly.

 

You will get no argument from me other than we aren't especially bad at doing that. Nor are we especially good at not doing it. So we should work to get there. This season in particular. We don't have the talent to overcome too many mistakes.

[yfinn6]

More RR shananigans. 4/8 vs Rockies: Admitted Smith would have been a better match-up than Broxton for that inning, but "Brox is our set-up man." I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that reasoning.

 

Part 2: Pitcher on deck, and you pitch to the #8 hitter, who in turn burns you.

 

Now, neither one of those are automatic decisions. But any Manager should be judged on results, and he was 0-2 in those decisions.

 

No kidding. I just can't believe that was the line of thinking for going with Broxton - that's seriously the worst logic and it's not the first, second, third, .. 10th, whatever time we've all thought that about RR.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It isn't dumb or undisciplined but holy hell does Davis have a wet noodle out their in LF. I don't understand how a good athlete like that who shows good power at the plate can have such a poor arm.

 

Hopefully they can get a W tonight so we can talk about something good.

 

 

Completely different set of muscles and arm motion. I play softball and can still hit the ball a mile and a half, but can no longer play outfield because I literally can not throw the ball even from medium-deep outfield to a cutoff man. I played LF one game last year and the SS had to come 40 feet out into the grass last year to take one-hop cutoff throws from me. Just can't make that throw anymore.

[xisxisxis]

I think it is also hard to determine how many times conservative base running teams lose runs but never gets noticed. If Gomez gets thrown out at third because he was over aggressive we see it. If a conservative base runner stays at second when they could made it to third it doesn't get counted as a mistake. Yet it really is equally bad base running

 

Absolutely wrong. Any out is way worse than any non-out. 1) the drop in scoring chances from a runner on 3B and X outs vs runner on 2B with X outs is way better than runner on 2B with Y outs and NO RUNNER at all with Y+1 outs. 2) Based on lengthy analysis, a Caught Stealing negates 2 SB or simply making an out takes away 2 bases so a runner being conservative and not taking an extra base only equates to half an out. Not at all equal.

[TheCrew07]

Gomez with a man on and two out. Double, runs scores. If you really want to document every bad play I'll document every good play. Lets see who has more when the year is done.

 

Right... so we should celebrate players doing exactly what they are paid to do? Hooray for mediocrity?

 

The frustration, at least as I see it in regards to the Brewers is not that players make mistakes, is that they will continually make the same boneheaded mistakes game after game and year after year.

 

Gomez is a perfect example of this... he consistently throws to the wrong base and makes poor decisions with the baseball, that's been a continual knock on him from the Mets, to the Twins, and now the Brewers. There are many attributes to like about Carlos, but he's not a heady baseball player, all of his positives come from his tremendous athleticism.

 

Is a coach really going to change a player who just "doesn't get it"? I don't know that it's possible... I grew up in household with a hall of fame coach, spent my life around sports, and coached myself for years, and I still do a little bit pitching work here and there. A coach can make improvements with a player over time, but some players and people just don't process information and quickly make good decisions under pressure, and Carlos is one of that type. He's going to continually frustrate a certain part of the fanbase because he makes mistakes that many of us were done with by the time we got out of little league. The ability to make those decisions is a gift, just like athleticism, and people/players are going naturally end up all over the spectrum.

 

The Brewers just haven't done well in the past finding players who are above average in this regard... of the players to come through the system Hardy, Hart (more so on the bases), and Lucroy are head and shoulders above the rest. Fielder, Braun, and Weeks were below average, as is Gomez whom I talked about above.

 

I really think these issues are more about the lack of development or trial by fire system in the minors, and to a large extent roster construction as well, rather than the actual MLB coaching.

[Thurston Fluff]

Right... so we should celebrate players doing exactly what they are paid to do? Hooray for mediocrity?

 

That probably should have been in blue. My point is trying to do a thread where only pointing out the bad things does not in any way show that this team is that bad. That one happened the same night as the bad plays did. I could just as easily post about Ian Desmond making three errors in one game which is pretty much par for the course in his career. I could have mentioned how stupid it was for Pittsburgh have the five hitter sac bunt in the second inning last night. I could point out Oakland and the Yankees have more errors than we do. I could mention a lot of things. Point being setting up a thread only to show the bad is nothing more than reinforcing a preconceived notion. If there is to be a discussion that shows we are worse at it then we need to look at more than just things we want to believe are true. As has been pointed out already most base running metrics, while imperfect, do not show we are terrible at it. In fact better than the Cards IIRC. Ditto for team defense. WE are pretty middle of the road in both. Something that shouldn't surprise us considering we are a pretty middle of the road team overall.

 

Gomez is a perfect example of this... he consistently throws to the wrong base and makes poor decisions with the baseball, that's been a continual knock on him from the Mets, to the Twins, and now the Brewers. There are many attributes to like about Carlos, but he's not a heady baseball player, all of his positives come from his tremendous athleticism.

 

We are talking about the same guy aren't we? The guy who won a gold glove? The one who is regarded as one of the best overall fielders in the game today. The one who managed to stay in the majors with the Mets, Twins and Brewers despite being horrible offensively because of his defense? Who cares how he accomplishes it? I would rather have him miss a cutoff man once in a while than not get to balls that would be doubles with any other center fielder. How anyone can complain about Gomez's defense is beyond me. Think about what you asking of him if being one of, if not the, best center fielders in the game isn't good enough?

 

The frustration, at least as I see it in regards to the Brewers is not that players make mistakes, is that they will continually make the same boneheaded mistakes game after game and year after year.

 

As do plenty of players on all teams throughout the history of the game. I've already mentioned Ian Desmond and his error prone history. Or Fernando Vina's bad base running throughout his career. Even playing for the mighty Cardinals and Tony LaRussa. It isn't limited to the Brewers. Why are so many players allowed to continue to make the same mistake over and over again on multiple teams? Because they are all good enough in other areas to still be an asset. It's fine to get frustrated with it. I certainly do. That is not the same as thinking it is only our team that puts up with it or that we are particularly bad about it.

 

Absolutely wrong. Any out is way worse than any non-out. 1) the drop in scoring chances from a runner on 3B and X outs vs runner on 2B with X outs is way better than runner on 2B with Y outs and NO RUNNER at all with Y+1 outs. 2) Based on lengthy analysis, a Caught Stealing negates 2 SB or simply making an out takes away 2 bases so a runner being conservative and not taking an extra base only equates to half an out. Not at all equal.

 

From which years did you get your metrics from? Have all of those metrics come form the post defensive shift era or are some of them from before. Are they taken as a whole generic or are they particular to a team with a fairly low OBP? I have already posted quite clearly why the assumptions people make today based on information collected a decade or more ago might not be valid. I also posted quite clearly how all that information is being used wrong when applied to a specific team. Perhaps you would be kind enough to share where your data comes from, how current it is and how accurate to this particular team's makeup it is. Then I could determine if it works for this team.

[rickh150]

Game 6...... Gomez picked off - between 2nd and 3rd- for 3rd out..... Ho hum, par for course for Gomez... Reminds me of base running error in last series in Pitt.

 

Wonder if he'll be benched like Gennett???? No cotton picken way! How is Gennet's goof any worse than any of Gomez crap over the years? RR is making Scooter the scapegoat on a minor issue but isn't willing to take on a bigger fish. Coward! Pick on a picked on player, monkey pile on someone smaller than you..... Gomez has made dozens of MENTAL errors far worse than Scooter's and nothing happens.... The man continues to be glorified by how aggressively stupid he plays and no playing time is taken, no issue of his stupid play is even brought up!!!!!!!!

 

Can't Ron simply say, "Gomez, you (and the team) have a red light on 2 outs when you are at 2nd...." ? Rule stands until Sedar puts on the green light for you in a particular situation. Blaming RR more and more for stupidness.

 

By the way, after Gomez was picked off to end inning, Pirates got next two on and then hit a homer. Momentum is very evident in baseball, and plays like Gomez makes, kills it and builds it for the other team. It also pisses off many in the fan base because it is accurately seen as us beating ourselves.

[rickh150]

Went to Maryvale and saw up close baserunning activities.... Wasn't impressed with it, especially how decisions were taken away from fielders and runners.

 

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=32476

[rickh150]

Game 6- 9th inning.... Gomez just airmailed another up the line... No runners advanced but should have

 

I'm gonna keep bangin this drum until things change....ridiculous.

[MrTPlush]

Game 6- 9th inning.... Gomez just airmailed another up the line... No runners advanced but should have

 

I'm gonna keep bangin this drum until things change....ridiculous.

 

Until Ron Reonicke is gone any problems with this team will never change.

[brewcrewdue80]

So we had the May of 2013. The end of the year 2014 and PreAll Star break collapse. The team is 1-5 to start thus far. What record does Roenicke have to avoid by the end of this month to not just get canned...Since the big end of season speech from Melvin was seeking out answers to why the team goes through these long losing streaks. On Tap are the Cardinals and Wainwright vs Garza. If healthy we'll see Wainwright again this month along with Lance Lynn twice and Johnny Cueto twice.

 

22 game month and at 1-5 with 6 games vs Starters Milw doesn't want to face because they are at a disadvantage. I'll just peg 2-4 as best case scenario. That's 3-9. And let's just go 4-6 for a losing record the remainder 10games. So at 7-15 to start the season. If I'm Ron Roenicke, am I managing May 1st(mind you April 30th is an off day...Hmmm?)

[tmwiese55]

would rather have him miss a cutoff man once in a while than not get to balls that would be doubles with any other center fielder.

 

This line of thinking is what I took issue with earlier, it's just doesn't make sense to think these things go together or that one can't be done without the other. Why can't he catch the ball and also throw it where he's supposed. I just don't see why we should accept people not improving their weakness, especially when it's so easily correctable. Of course he's one of the best defensive center fielders, I was one who was clamoring for him to play just because of D and then take any offense as gravy, doesn't mean it gives a free pass to do whatever he wants.

 

I did happen to catch a Giants CF airmail a cutoff which led to a runner advancing to second and then scoring on Saturday night though, first time in a while I've seen a bonehead play while watching other teams.

 

The pickoff trying to steal was already brought up but this exactly the problem. He's at 2nd already with 2 outs, there is no reason to steal 3rd other than to pad your stats. What makes it worse is he was nearly picked off maybe two pitches earlier and that wasn't enough for him to pump the brakes. Had a lead at that point too, he gets out and then boom they're down 4-2. Could've changed the whole game, maybe Segura hits him and Braun homers, we'll never know.

 

Did I miss something else with Scooter or is this two game benching just because of getting tossed out of the game on Friday or did he screw something else up that I missed?

[lcbj68c]

Why does the performance have to be pegged dumb, boneheaded or mental? It's likely just the hole in his skillset. I do the same thing as an outfielder in softball. I know where the ball is supposed to go. I try and it just doesn't matter. No amount of practice is gonna change that.

[rickh150]

Making better decisions is in everyone's DNA......including Gomez.

 

By mere choice, he has yet to have enough of anegative factor come in to change him from air mailing it home and being overly aggressive on the bases..... He still plays everyday and he's glorified by his manager publicly.... Why change?

 

It is beyond me why RR believes he must NOT Help and teach this wild unbroken stallion. Why, oh why? So he is at his best by leaving him be? Because his fragile psyche can't manage correction? By leaving him be, a team damaging poison and fan base beat ourselves headache continues....

 

Gomez is good, but he could be better and we could be much better, without the continued little league- no,no -make that t-ball mistakes..... Such a rally and momentum killer...

[rickh150]

Icbj68c, my guess is that you haven't been benched in softball for your mental lapses.... For years, many coaches, including and especially Bo Ryan, the bench has been a great teacher.

[Jenkins5]

As crazy as he may drive us at times, he also makes us cheer just as much. He airmails a throw one play, next he is going over the wall to save a homerun or gunning down a guy at 2nd/3rd. He gets pickoff foolishly, he steals a critical base for us. He tries to take an extra base when he probably should,....he wins us a game by doing it. Gomez has a 16.2 WAR over the last three seasons and 13.2 in his last 2 all-star seasons.

 

For every time he gives you a reason to pull out your hair, he gives you 1 or 2 more to stand up a cheer like a high school girl over. That his game. He is all or nothing, all out, energy source of this team. Now that is good and bad because he can sink the team or spark the team. I for one will take a guy like him over most other options.

 

He is the Brewers version of Brett Favre. He will drive you nuts! But sometimes players like that are worth it....not to mention just exciting to watch.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I don't agree with benching him either, he's their best player. I loved the Brett Favre analogy. Sure was fun to watch but I bet they win more SBs if he doesn't throw so many stupid picks every year.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to see Braun not get sent home yesterday when it was 2-2 and Lind doubled with 0 outs. Was expecting him to get thrown out by 20 ft at home.

[Ennder]

Now, neither one of those are automatic decisions. But any Manager should be judged on results, and he was 0-2 in those decisions.

 

Managers should be judged by process, players should be judged by results. If you think this was a smart move it doesn't matter if it fails, sometimes the 75% right choice is the wrong result, like 25% of the time. The worst thing you can be is results oriented with a manager.

Gomez has a low baseball IQ, it stinks but it is what it is. 3 different organizations have tried to fix this and all failed. It isn't the managers fault, it is just how the guy is.

[lcbj68c]

Icbj68c, my guess is that you haven't been benched in softball for your mental lapses.... For years, many coaches, including and especially Bo Ryan, the bench has been a great teacher.

 

That's because they aren't mental lapses. I just don't have the skillset to accurately throw at great distances.

[TheCrew07]

We are talking about the same guy aren't we? The guy who won a gold glove? The one who is regarded as one of the best overall fielders in the game today.

 

Yes he's a tremendous CF because he can run down balls in the gaps and has the athleticism to pull balls back over the wall. However, that has nothing to do with the poor decisions he makes when throwing the ball to the wrong base, or the outs he makes on the bases. The outs on the bases are at least trackable, the mental errors that allow extra bases are not.

 

Being a good fielder does not automatically qualify as being a "smart" player on the field, in fact those two ideas have little to do with each other. I've watched tremendously talented young SSs come through WI the last 3 years and make great catches but poor decisions with the baseball after. Some players will learn and continue to get better with experience in that regard, others will plateau.

 

The Farve analogy was a pretty good one, he's a guy that did everything wrong fundamentally from a throwing perspective and didn't even throw to the open guy most of the time. I was able to watch wide angle film (not the TV feed where they follow the ball in the air which is useless) at clinics during his prime and Brett missed the "open" receiver in the route more often than not. He just had the arm strength and physical talent to be able to fit the ball into incredibly tight windows to the receiver he trusted, which also led to his interception issues; he always believed he squeeze the ball in there and there would be a hand full of opportunities in every game for the defense to take advantage. There are very few people in the world who can throw with velocity and precision fading away from their target like he could, and he's the only one who's done with that consistency. Rogers is a talented and smart QB, Farve was extremely physically gifted and a fearless competitor; 2 completely ways to play the game, both ultimately successful, though personally I prefer Aaron.

[Ennder]

Favre carried a ton of really piss poor teams to the playoffs even with all his flaws, if your talent is high enough you can get away with the flaws too.