Still too dumb and undisciplined (Gomez) and passive (Roenicke) [See mod note in post #160]

[Ennder]

I guess I just don't think the mental part is as easy to fix as you think it is. Gomez has played this way for 20+ years of life now. Baserunning is very instinctual because if you hesitate at all you are probably going to get out. I don't think this is an easy thing to fix for him. Also I think you are completely wrong if you don't think Gomez is trying to improve every year. Now turning off his steals of 3rd with less than 2 outs would be fine with me and that is something they can definitely control. Telling him to be less aggressive is probably going to just hurt him in most other areas though.

[tmwiese55]

"Also I think you are completely wrong if you don't think Gomez is trying to improve every year. Now turning off his steals of 3rd with less than 2 outs would be fine with me and that is something they can definitely control."

You're actually agreeing with me here. That is my point, he should be trying to improve and one has to trust he's trying. My issue was with those arguing that he's good now and that's what he is, accept it.

 

The thing that I doubt is an option is that any manager can do something to make a player's weakness disappear in a year or two. Which seems to be the complaint as far as I can tell. That in no way should imply people stop trying to get him to make better decisions. Just that we have to accept it is who he is now and that is actually pretty darn good. Given there is a reasonable explanation to go the route RRR did with him and other ways of approaching it haven't produced anything close to his production this approach did, why complain about doing it this way?

 

-I think this is pretty spot on. You're pretty much saying what I am. My point was with those saying it's fine and that he can't improve. You have to try to clean it up a bit. If it saves 6 outs throughout the season, it might save you a win or two.

[danzig6767]

So Ennder, you just accept that he can't improve? There's no reason a player can't get smarter with age, it happens in all sports very often. Examples, in baseball an older player learning to hit opposite field as he ages or a pitcher learning placement as his velocity goes down. In basketball, learning to take better shots and reducing turnovers usually comes with the maturation procession. There's no reason he and everyone else shouldn't be pushed to improve and yes it is the manager and his staff's responsibility to try.

Of course players learn over time but that comes from so many other sources than just the manager. Gomez has gotten better over time in almost every department. I don't really credit Roenicke for that and I'm certainly not going to blame him when Gomez isn't perfect either. From 2011-2014 Gomez is the 20th highest rated BsR in MLB so it isn't like his baserunning is a negative. I just think you are looking for someone to blame when there isn't one thing to point at. Gomez is not a smart baseball player and probably never will be. The Brewers organization really has nothing to do with it. He has improved since he got here and we had nothing to do with his minor league development.

 

If you look at most players weaknesses when they first came up,they don't usually lose that as a weakness. Weeks improved defensively but it was never a strength, Gomez has a low baseball IQ and probably always will, Segura will probably always swing at too many pitches, Scooter is probably never going to be a good hitter against lefties. You can work on hiding them and make them less of a weakness but in the big picture they usually stay a weakness.

That's the thing, athletes in all sports are often blessed with certain types of strengths and weaknesses. Not all athletes are naturally cerebral players compared to others, but they can still excel by sheer talent and working hard.

 

I give Gomez a ton of credit for his work ethic and desire to improve, but some things can only be improved on to certain degrees. He'll always make some mistakes out of his aggressive nature just as that nature creates positive things. It is what it is.

 

What annoys me big time when it comes to Gomez is if say he gets caught trying to take an extra base, a certain group of Brewers fans will scream like crazy about how undisciplined/excessively aggressive he is, but they will rarely ever credit with anything close to the same zeal when that aggressiveness leads to positive results, which happens more often that negative.

 

That's just how some fans are. When they don't like certain players much, the negative things those players do end up sticking out to them much more than the positives. So that player could 3-4 times in a row drive in a runner from third base with less than two outs, but if in the next at bat of a situation like that the player strikes out on a ball, the fan will go crazy screaming that the player is so terrible and undisciplined "in the clutch", regardless if the stats say otherwise.

 

Carlos is my favorite Brewers player which is crazy to think considering a few years ago i thought he was hopeless to ever be more than a 4th OF type.

[rickh150]

I like Gomez..... He's a Brewer.

I just think we'd be better if the energy as an organization was spent on being a smarter playing team with a low tolerance for dumb.... If that means the bench at times, sure..... Shake things up. How did the status quo work for us last year? No more always swing from the heals, over aggressive, "Happy"(in May, mind you), what will be will be, team. I realize this is an exaggeration to a point, but there are issues with our team's baseball IQ.

[MrTPlush]

I like Gomez..... He's a Brewer.

I just think we'd be better if the energy as an organization was spent on being a smarter playing team with a low tolerance for dumb.... If that means the bench at times, sure..... Shake things up. How did the status quo work for us last year? No more always swing from the heals, over aggressive, "Happy"(in May, mind you), what will be will be, team. I realize this is an exaggeration to a point, but there are issues with our team's baseball IQ.

 

Still really lost on why you focus on Gomez...he is not the problem.

 

Focus on someone who actually lacks a baseball IQ like Segura. Segura is horrid on the bases and horrid mentally on defense.

[3and2Fastball]

Gomez has made continual improvement throughout his professional career. His walk rate & OBP has continually improved. His production vs RHP has skyrocketed. His power has increased. All of this in an era of incredible pitching shows tremendous hard work & growth.

 

Is there statistical evidence that Gomez' baserunning ability has stagnated or lessensed?

[MNBrew]

I like Gomez..... He's a Brewer.

I just think we'd be better if the energy as an organization was spent on being a smarter playing team with a low tolerance for dumb.... If that means the bench at times, sure..... Shake things up. How did the status quo work for us last year? No more always swing from the heals, over aggressive, "Happy"(in May, mind you), what will be will be, team. I realize this is an exaggeration to a point, but there are issues with our team's baseball IQ.

First off, I'm a big believer in playing smart & playing the game "right" (a.k.a. fundamentally soundly).

 

Re: what I underscored in your post.... In spite of their faults, the Brewers were QUITE successful with their approach to all facets of the game for 80% of the season. While the team's downward trend on offense started around July 1, the ship still righted itself at least enough again, all the way to a 71-55 record and a healthily secure playoff position, before the bottom fell out.

 

The total team slump was bad but simply spiraled out of control (which was not inevitable to begin with), and while the weaknesses or not-ideal tendencies you've cited clearly played a glaring role in that, 1) there were other major issues, too, and 2) those things you've cited weren't ultimately terminal issues for the first 80% of the season because the team did enough to compensate for those things to end up at 71-55. Note that I'm NOT suggesting we "just accept it" as you're saying others are. Clearly those issues were there. I'm saying there's an element of perspective re: the place of this issue within the overall big picture of the team & its performance. The converse, of course, is that in any major or prolonged slump -- especially if those it's a team-wide issue -- most any good things are easily overlooked because the lousy things seem so heinous & glaring.

 

Two other thoughts: 1) Re: "low tolerance for dumb" and handling of players' chronically bad/stupid play by coaches/leadership.... There are so many unknowns in the situation. First off, we don't know everything about how these things are addressed privately, whether verbally or punitively, whether individually or outwardly/freely behind closed doors. We also don't know everything about where players' traits/skills started vs. where they've progressed to at the point when they're visible to us. We don't know all about players' or coaches' respective learning/teaching or thought processes. HUGELY overlooked in this whole discussion is the fact that many of the Brewers' glaring weaknesses were at the plate, and hitting coach Johnny Narron paid the price with his job (far worse than a player benching!). After all, how many Brewers hitters showed noteworthy improvement due to his tutelage? I'd argue that few if any hitters got more than slightly better with him as the main voice in their ears -- and many either regressed or failed to make meaningful adjustments. 2) Re: the passage above I bolded.... The "Shake things up" comment sounds a lot like those who scream for a team to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade, not necessarily because it's the best thing to do. Is that whole bolded idea necessarily the best solution? It's outward, it's visible... and it reeks of the idea that overtly rolling heads is the smartest way to handle things -- like the "new sheriff in town" who claims to be the cure for all that's wrong. There's a "managing people" aspect to this, too, which cannot be ignored, and a knowledge of where both individuals' and the team's balances need to be with respect to maximizing the potential of their skill sets & tendencies vs. reducing the likelihood of undesirable outcomes.

[tmwiese55]

Still really lost on why you focus on Gomez...he is not the problem.

 

Good point, I don't like how this all ended up being about Gomez. Yes he's the most blatant example but this was a problem throughout the whole team last year, all year. I remember conversations even April, in spite of them winning almost every game, about how dumb they were playing and eventually the luck would run out unless it got cleaned up. I remember, Braun airmailing multiple cutoff guys, a ton of botched bunts early in the season. I hate bunting to begin with so that really ticked me off.

 

No comments on my post regarding how we run into outs to draw throws away from a play at the plate? Am I the only one that sees this?

[fondybrewfan]

I am also of the belief that we exaggerate the issue because we watch the team every day. Basically every game played features at least one dumb base running mistake or dumb defensive mistake; I really don't think the Brewers make a exorbitant amount of mistakes compared to everyone else

[TooLiveBrew]

No comments on my post regarding how we run into outs to draw throws away from a play at the plate? Am I the only one that sees this?

For my two cents on this, I see this as an 'old baseball'/'baseball lifer' kind of thing. It really seems ingrained in some players & coaches that this tactic is 'playing the game the right way', & that of course you sacrifice the out to guarantee the run scoring. I definitely don't see it as something the Brewers do noticeably more than any other team.

 

However, I wholeheartedly agree with you about how frustrating & mostly useless the 'tactic' is. Sure there are a few instances where it definitely does directly allow the run to score, but if I had to guess I'd guess somewhere around 8 or 9 times out of 10 it was an unnecessary giveaway & the lead runner would've scored anyway.

[tmwiese55]

I am also of the belief that we exaggerate the issue because we watch the team every day. Basically every game played features at least one dumb base running mistake or dumb defensive mistake; I really don't think the Brewers make a exorbitant amount of mistakes compared to everyone else

 

Yes that's probably at least partially true. But for those of who've been watching for years, it sure seems the last two years and especially last year were worse.

 

Too Live kind of made the same comment about regarding the running into outs. This is one that I feel has gone way up in the last 2-3 years for us, almost as if it's being coached. Generally I watch a fair amount of other games besides us though, nothing crazy but usually I watch MLB network instead of ESPN during baseball season and they jump from game to game (which is awesome) and almost always to games where runners are on base, and I never see this there.

 

Sidenote, ESPN becomes unbearable to me starting after the bball tournament due to nonstop NFL draft bs. Then camp starts in July/August and it's unwatchable again due to nonstop NFL obsession. I start going to MLB network in April and don't look back.

[TooLiveBrew]

MLB Network really is exceptional. Yes they do have some baseball-lifer-cliche-machine analysts, but overall their coverage & content are outstanding.

[tmwiese55]

Yes I could really do without Harold Reynolds saying the same cliches over and over. Sometimes the intentional talk thing with Kevin Millar (I think) is a little unwatchable too.

 

The nightly coverage though is fantastic, jump from game to game. post game interviews with key players in each game (not just NYY, BOS, Dodgers, and now Cubs like on espn). They actually show numerous highlights for every game to tell the story of each game. Not just one HR from a star player and then the score like espn.

[DuWayne Steurer]

The problem with baserunning metrics and talking points is there is absolutely no differentiating between "aggressive" outs and plain old "dumb" outs.

 

If a runner is thrown out by a foot, or by 25 feet, the metrics don't measure that, it's just an "out on base". When a guy is thrown out at third base by 25 feet on a grounder hit to shortstop, that is just plain stupid, and absolutely shouldn't happen. The metrics call that "aggressive" and say "the Brewers added X number of runs with aggressive baserunning last year"

 

It would be interesting to know how many of our outs on base were actually close plays, and how many would fall into the truly "Bonehead/mental mistake" category.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yes I could really do without Harold Reynolds saying the same cliches over and over. Sometimes the intentional talk thing with Kevin Millar (I think) is a little unwatchable too.

The nightly coverage though is fantastic, jump from game to game. post game interviews with key players in each game (not just NYY, BOS, Dodgers, and now Cubs like on espn). They actually show numerous highlights for every game to tell the story of each game. Not just one HR from a star player and then the score like espn.

Yup, agreed on both... especially Unintentional Talk. Or, more aptly named, "Cringy Baseball Happy-Jock Cringe Fun Time"

[DocLuna7]

I dunno. Even though Intentional Talk can be a bit over the top I am overall a huge fan of MLB Network. It is absolutely refreshing and awesome being able to watch some baseball talk while eating my breakfast on a cold day in December.

[liveforoctober]

Everyone needs to re-read the original post. Yes, it mentions Gomez but the point is that the whole team has been making bone headed mistakes under Ron's watch and Ron seems to be encouraging it under the guise of "being aggressive."

 

If Ron cracked down on the aggressiveness and Gomez turned back into a sub .250 hitter who slapped the ball around, didn't make baserunning mistakes because he was careful and tried to take walks would that make our situation better or worse as a team?

 

Personally, I'd rather have a guy who hits 25 home runs, steals a crap load of bases, is a mental problem for pitchers every time he is on a base and OCCASIONALLY GETS THROWN OUT AT 2ND TRYING TO STRETCH A SINGLE... than a guy who is safe on the base paths and tries to draw talks once in a while but loses the rest of that.

 

This isn't directed straight to you Chris Jericho ... but rather a broad statement. I would suggest that we, as a fan base, quit trying to make Carlos Gomez a perfect baseball player. Very few of those exist. He is what he is ... and what he is is a really, really good ballplayer and someone we are lucky to have on our roster for the price we are paying for him. Embrace the bad with the good.

 

I know some of you will hate hearing this, but that is exactly what Ron is doing by making those statements to the media. I guarantee his conversations with Carlos Gomez behind closed doors are different than what he tells us. He puts a positive spin on things because that's what he is suppose to do to the media. It isn't his personality to be aggressive and challenging in public.

 

Go Crew.

[tmwiese55]

If Ron cracked down on the aggressiveness and Gomez turned back into a sub .250 hitter who slapped the ball around, didn't make baserunning mistakes because he was careful and tried to take walks would that make our situation better or worse as a team?

 

Personally, I'd rather have a guy who hits 25 home runs, steals a crap load of bases, is a mental problem for pitchers every time he is on a base and OCCASIONALLY GETS THROWN OUT AT 2ND TRYING TO STRETCH A SINGLE... than a guy who is safe on the base paths and tries to draw talks once in a while but loses the rest of that.

 

This was my second point. There is no reason to think these things are mutually exclusive. Of course you'd rather have the second player you mention, but there is no reason to believe that emphasizing avoiding getting thrown out by 30 ft will lead to someone losing his ability to play the game. I think your last line is spot on that Ron is trying to clean this behind close doors, at least he better be.

[topper09er]

There is no reason to think these things are mutually exclusive. Of course you'd rather have the second player you mention, but there is no reason to believe that emphasizing avoiding getting thrown out by 30 ft will lead to someone losing his ability to play the game.

 

I disagree, in theory there is no reason but in reality there is. The Twins and Mets tried to tell Gomez to think first and then react, well it took him too long to think and he struggled. The Brewers told him to react first and think later, and he could stop focusing on analyzing every situation and just go with his instincts...and now he is an elite player. You are basically saying you would tell him: CarGo, whenever there is a situation that you might make an aggressive mistake, stop to think if you will likely make the mistake, but in situation where you will not make an aggressive mistake, then don't think about those situations.

[TooLiveBrew]

There is no reason to think these things are mutually exclusive. Of course you'd rather have the second player you mention, but there is no reason to believe that emphasizing avoiding getting thrown out by 30 ft will lead to someone losing his ability to play the game.

 

I disagree, in theory there is no reason but in reality there is. The Twins and Mets tried to tell Gomez to think first and then react, well it took him too long to think and he struggled. The Brewers told him to react first and think later, and he could stop focusing on analyzing every situation and just go with his instincts...and now he is an elite player. You are basically saying you would tell him: CarGo, whenever there is a situation that you might make an aggressive mistake, stop to think if you will likely make the mistake, but in situation where you will not make an aggressive mistake, then don't think about those situations.

I don't think the Twins & Mets told him to think before reacting. The way they held him back was telling him to focus on being a contact line drive/groundball hitter. What the Brewers did was to allow him to be more free-swinging. He seems to be about the same player he ever was, in terms of defense & baserunning -- all out at all times.

[Nottso]

Gomez has quickly become my favorite current Brewer and quite possibly my favorite Brewer of all time. I love everything about this kid. He is an absolute joy to watch. For every "dumb" out that he makes on the basepaths, how many extra bases has he gained or extra runs has he scored?

 

I hope to Jebus that Roenicke never tries to shackle him. Just turn him loose and let him do his thing, I say.

[rickh150]

I'll repeat this thought again because the mental side of the game still hasn't been talked about by many on this thread, the team's media, or sadly the team's powers that be.

 

The RISK/REWARD side of base running is rarely muttered in press conferences, tv broadcasts, radio broadcasts, or in print. At the most, a writer or reporter will talk about making a few too many outs on the bases. What is not mentioned is how moronic our decisions are at times, much more than the average team. There are times when it is smart to test the outfielder's arm, smart to not attempt a steal, smart to attempt a steal, smart not to try to go from 1st to 3rd, smart to try to go from 1st to 3rd, smart to get caught in a rundown between 1B and 2B to get that go-ahead run home, and smart not to do it when trailing by 5 in the 8th.

 

A real education is needed for the entire Brewers organization and fans. I think Davey Nelson could handle a segment every series on how to run the bases effectively. Given a situation, he could quiz the players/fans on what could be done, should be done, or should definitely not be done.

[nate82]

I'll repeat this thought again because the mental side of the game still hasn't been talked about by many on this thread, the team's media, or sadly the team's powers that be.

 

The RISK/REWARD side of base running is rarely muttered in press conferences, tv broadcasts, radio broadcasts, or in print. At the most, a writer or reporter will talk about making a few too many outs on the bases. What is not mentioned is how moronic our decisions are at times, much more than the average team. There are times when it is smart to test the outfielder's arm, smart to not attempt a steal, smart to attempt a steal, smart not to try to go from 1st to 3rd, smart to try to go from 1st to 3rd, smart to get caught in a rundown between 1B and 2B to get that go-ahead run home, and smart not to do it when trailing by 5 in the 8th.

 

A real education is needed for the entire Brewers organization and fans. I think Davey Nelson could handle a segment every series on how to run the bases effectively. Given a situation, he could quiz the players/fans on what could be done, should be done, or should definitely not be done.

 

Well here is the thing the Brewers by all accounts are an average base running team last year and Davey Nelson would be the worst person possible talking about base running.

 

From the stats that I have looked up the Brewers have generated about 2.0 runs with their base running while the Cardinals have created about -5 runs with their base running. Everything that I have seen from the Brewers has been aggressive but more times than not they have been successful and the statistics back this up. The mental mistakes are not hurting the Brewers as much as you are thinking they are.

[Ennder]

I think this is very similar to the errors vs range debates in fielding. Errors are really easy to spot and it is really easy to overreact to how much they hurt your team. Lack of range is much harder to spot but causes more issues in the long run. The Brewers are an above average base running team, they just make a lot of errors. The Cardinals as mentioned above are a team with poor range on the base paths but they don't make a lot of errors. Obviously having the best of both worlds would be great but I don't know that this is an organizational issue and not just the fact we have some players who are just too aggressive.

[FVBrewerFan]

I don't know that this is an organizational issue and not just the fact we have some players who are just too aggressive.

 

It's an organizational issue because Sedar makes far too many mistakes under the guise of "being aggressive" and he is rewarded for it because it's exactly what RR wants his team to do.

 

I do agree, we notice the Brewers mistakes more since we see every game. I'm sure many teams have lots of mental errors also. With that said, I dismiss any stats trying to quantify base running, since it's just too subjective.