Still too dumb and undisciplined (Gomez) and passive (Roenicke) [See mod note in post #160]

[Thurston Fluff]

You agree Ron encourages stupidity under the guise of being aggressive? I have never seen any manager encourage poor play or boneheaded mistakes. I understand may feel he is to accepting of it but that is far from encouraging it. Seems more like inflammatory rhetoric than a real possibility.

[DoubleSwitch]

What more does Gomez have to do to get people off his back? He even bumped his BB% above 7 last year, turning one of his biggest weaknesses into a league average skill. He adds value in every facet of the game: on the basepaths, in the field and at the plate.

 

I'm just glad he's figured it out and that he's under contract with the Brewers.

[jerichoholicninja]

You agree Ron encourages stupidity under the guise of being aggressive? I have never seen any manager encourage poor play or boneheaded mistakes. I understand may feel he is to accepting of it but that is far from encouraging it. Seems more like inflammatory rhetoric than a real possibility.

 

Many of the "aggressive" things they do are incredibly stupid. How many threads last year were there about outs on the bases? Remember when Schaefer got thrown out at 3B on a ball hit to the short stop and that very likely cost the team the game? BF.net was livid and Ron was ho-hum whatever about it. There's aggressive and stupid. Last year this team put more tallies on the stupid side than aggressive and I don't think this is going to change. They made two major bone head baserunning blunders in the few minutes of the first spring training game I saw.

[DoubleSwitch]

The defense has been much better under Ron than it was previously.

 

For every Yuni B there's a Mark Reynolds, who played great D last year despite a poor reputation.

[MrTPlush]

Everyone needs to re-read the original post. Yes, it mentions Gomez but the point is that the whole team has been making bone headed mistakes under Ron's watch and Ron seems to be encouraging it under the guise of "being aggressive."

 

Agreed, that is also what I took out of it...I think Gomez was just one example, not the entire point...

 

Disagree he put Gomez in the title, whole paragraph on just him, and mentions no other names specifically. That leads me to believe Gomez is the worst at it and the root of the problem. Horrible thread and was a jumbled mess of venting.

[Thurston Fluff]

You agree Ron encourages stupidity under the guise of being aggressive? I have never seen any manager encourage poor play or boneheaded mistakes. I understand may feel he is to accepting of it but that is far from encouraging it. Seems more like inflammatory rhetoric than a real possibility.

 

Many of the "aggressive" things they do are incredibly stupid. How many threads last year were there about outs on the bases? Remember when Schaefer got thrown out at 3B on a ball hit to the short stop and that very likely cost the team the game? BF.net was livid and Ron was ho-hum whatever about it. There's aggressive and stupid. Last year this team put more tallies on the stupid side than aggressive and I don't think this is going to change. They made two major bone head baserunning blunders in the few minutes of the first spring training game I saw.

 

None of that means he encourages boneheaded play. If you disagree that the level of stupidity compared to the value he's getting is more than RRR should accept fine. But that is not at all the same as saying he almost seems to be doing it intentionally. To say so does nothing to further advance the argument of where to find that balance. It's just seems more like an insult to Reonicke than an actual comment on where the line is.

[MNBrew]

You agree Ron encourages stupidity under the guise of being aggressive? I have never seen any manager encourage poor play or boneheaded mistakes. I understand may feel he is to accepting of it but that is far from encouraging it. Seems more like inflammatory rhetoric than a real possibility.

 

Many of the "aggressive" things they do are incredibly stupid. How many threads last year were there about outs on the bases? Remember when Schaefer got thrown out at 3B on a ball hit to the short stop and that very likely cost the team the game? BF.net was livid and Ron was ho-hum whatever about it. There's aggressive and stupid. Last year this team put more tallies on the stupid side than aggressive and I don't think this is going to change. They made two major bone head baserunning blunders in the few minutes of the first spring training game I saw.

We all hate outs on the bases, especially when they seem needless. But reading the threads here over the years, you'd never think another team ever makes a single out on the bases. Ditto for fielding errors or other breakdowns of fundamentals.

 

EVERY TEAM makes mistakes on the bases. EVERY TEAM makes errors or has plays that amount to breakdowns of fundamentals. EVERY TEAM takes chances that backfire, be it a pinch-hitter or pitching change (or lack thereof), a caught-stealing that ends a rally, OF throws to home plate that have no real chance of getting a runner that end up allowing opposing baserunners to advance, etc., etc., etc. . . . Some teams also don't play aggressively enough and regularly miss run-scoring opportunities or outright blow games on account of their chronic unwillingness to take chances. . . . To me the whole opening rant (and some of what follows) sounds like taking yet another opportunity to bash Roenicke. . . . For all the stats-heavy thinkers on this board, I'd think this selective "piling on" would've been countered with the challenge to compare the Brewers' frequency of plays or factors of aggressiveness that succeeded vs. those that failed AND THEN compare that result to the same results for every other team at least in the NL if not in MLB. If such a detailed, stats-driven comparison were available and proved that the Brewers are major failures in that way, well below league average, then I'd think the criticism of Roenicke might carry some validity. But until then...

 

There's another whole obvious angle folks are missing. There's what Roenicke (and many other managers or head coaches) say to the media, and there's what they say behind closed doors or one-on-one to their teams and players. They're often NOT the same. Lack of public shaming is often construed as a manager being soft on his team or certain members of it. Truly effective leaders -- those whose get good buy-in, commitment, and loyalty from their people -- understand that regularly publicly overreacting and throwing their people under the bus is not good for the team and its members. Doing that is a sure way to lose those people. Reprimands or discipline, constructive criticism, teachable moments, and the like are most often best handled internally/privately. The truly good managers don't just manage games but also their people.. . . Roenicke may respond to things more lightly than many of us want in interviews, but I'm quite inclined to think that he knows how he needs to respond to protect his players. When a player knows he's absolutely screwed something up and admits to feeling terrible about it, is it really constructive for the manager to publicly berate him all over again to the press? That may be cathartic or vindicating for the emotionally charged fan, but when one of the keys to players' success is confidence, publicly tearing him down all over again does nothing to help the player have a better chance of succeeding the next time he's in the same position.

[Ennder]

The truly bad management was the Twins who tried to turn Gomez into something that was never going to work. Also nobody ever 'fixed' Hunter Pence and he does just about everything wrong. If it works for him then they let him keep doing it. They let Panda overeat and get away with it, they let Zito party all he wanted. Lincecum continually smoked pot etc. It isn't like the Giants have some huge control over their players. They just got hot late in the season a few times.

[rickh150]

Great teams have a discipline about them. They aren't going to beat themselves often. The Brewers, over the last two or three years, have beaten themselves too often/more than their fair share, in my opinion. Is this the reason they missed the playoffs? Maybe! Yes, maybe. Although the offense was bad, the poor decisions made in the field and especially on the bases were bad too. Good baserunning and decision making could have won them a few more close games and could have changed momentum down the stretch. No question about that.

 

All teams make boneheaded plays. However, when this team makes boneheaded plays, the top bonehead brags about how hard he plays, the manager champions aggressiveness, and the wrong message is sent to the rest of the team......play hard and take chances in the name of being aggressive.

 

Now let's get to the nuts and bolts here... RR doesn't want Gomez upset with him. He won't say ANYTHING negative about him regardless of what he does. He could run the bases backwards from 3rd to 1st and he'd say how hard he ran, how he has a great energy. He might tell him privately that is unacceptable, but it's simply a slap on the wrist, like a lax teacher who lets the class clown do what he wants. Just put him in the lineup and let him play, right? I wonder if this would be an issue if Bo Ryan ran the show in Milwaukee, or Alvarez? I doubt it. Righteous anger (and the bench) has its place and they both know/knew how to use it. Most of you parents, teachers, and coaches know what I mean. I simply don't see RR going to the emotional level that would be needed to challenge/change Gomez and his careless decisions.

 

Here's another classic from Gomez, complaining about Braun when he, Gomez, was chucked at 3rd on the 3rd out.....

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/carlos-gomez-questions-ryan-braun-after-baserunning-gaffe-costs-brewers-run-173357949.html

 

Gomez's decision, alone, could have cost the Brewers that game. Yet, does he regret the decision? No! He'd try it again! How doesn't he realize the risk/reward part of the game here! Moreover, he blames a teammate, another team leader nonetheless, for not hustling home when it was ENTIRELY his fault!

 

I agree with the commentary of the last paragraph in the article wholeheartedly. Here's hoping that Gomez and the rest of the Brewers start learning more about important baseball risk/reward decisions soon and start keeping their mouths shut about their superior aggressive play.

[Patrick425]

Rickh, as soon as I read your post I knew you were going to get a lot of opposition on this board. Especially when you complimented the cards in a follow up post. Complementing the cards on this site is a no no even though they have had far more success than the Brewers. Guess it's just luck...right?

 

I agree with a lot of the things that you stated. I don't think being aggressive and being smart are two mutually exclusive concepts.

[Ennder]

Nobody is saying the Brewers don't make a lot of bonehead mistakes but that is on the players or even on player development in the minors more than on the major league manager.

[Thurston Fluff]

Rickh, as soon as I read your post I knew you were going to get a lot of opposition on this board. Especially when you complimented the cards in a follow up post. Complementing the cards on this site is a no no even though they have had far more success than the Brewers. Guess it's just luck...right?

 

I agree with a lot of the things that you stated. I don't think being aggressive and being smart are two mutually exclusive concepts.

 

I don't think it's as much about complimenting the Cards as it is about attributing false characteristics about why they have generally been better than we are. They are not better because the team is less tolerant of mistakes than we are. Perfect example is Fernando Vina. I only saw a player get picked off on a fake throw to third then throw to first twice in my life. The first time was when Vina got picked off first as a Brewer. The second time was when Vina got picked off first as a Cardinal. He was atrocious on the bases with us and he didn't get better with the Cards. Yet they kept him for four years. Speaking of Vina the Cards let him run as much as Milwaukee did and he always had a poor success rate for them as well. Then there is the defensive side of bonehead. I think errors are an decent way to get a feel for the level of incompetence a team is willing to tolerate. In 2012 the Cardinals had the 9th most errors in all of baseball. In 2011 they had the 4th most. Those were obviously mistake prone teams managed by LaRussa and did very well as a team. It isn't an unwillingness to tolerate mistakes that make them better. To claim it is certainly deserves to be challenged.

[rickh150]

Scorekeeper Called Defensive errors and mental errors are different to me and I'm not as critical with called errors. Called errors happen. Mental errors like throwing to the wrong base, missing the cutoff man, FORGETTING how many outs there are in an inning (Reynolds), getting chucked at THIRD on a single to left on OPening Day (Gomez), swinging yourself into the ground when contact would do in a situation, etc..... They bother me and they should bother more fans. Even more, the "agressive > wise" philosophy being pushed (management and players talk all the time about aggressiveness, not smart baseball) and bragged about by questionable decision makers is beyond foolish.

 

For the "Gomez can do no wrong supporters (as long as he hits, that is)", "hear no evil, see no evil."

[rickh150]

Many teams are less "tolerant"of mental mistakes than the Brewers, and yes it makes a difference in clubhouse moral, team chemistry, respect of the manager, and in the standings.

[tmwiese55]

I generally agree with the original poster and see the point. Gomez is of course the biggest offender but it was all over the team last year and I was frustrated all year by it. Then I flip on the first Spring Training game and Scooter is on 2B in the first inning. Gets chased back after one pitch and then picked off and caught in a rundown the next pitch, i know it's one play in spring training but it just made me roll my eyes.

 

I'm as big of a Gomez supporter as anybody and was in the Free Gomez camp years ago. I never thought he'd be this good of a hitter but had the attitude that his D is so good that who cares, just bat him low in the lineup and let him hack, any offense you get is gravy.

 

For those making the argument that RR freeing him and his aggressiveness is what has made him good, I think you're missing two key points you're acting like these things are mutually exclusive. He can be aggressive and swing hard without making just asinine decisions that lead to him getting thrown out by 30 ft and/or attempting a pointless steal of 3B with 2 outs when Braun is at the plate. You're already one of the fast players in the league, you don't need to be at 3B to score on a hit. Try to steal third all day with 1 out though, that is smart aggressiveness. Second, you're kind of insinuating that he's good already and therefore shouldn't be asked to improve. That is just illogical. It would be like saying well player X is hits 300 with a 333 obp, wouldn't we all be still wishing he took more walks and got the obp over 350. Or Khris Davis is a good example, he's been pretty good and has good power, but are we are still saying it would be great to move the average up a few points and start taking more walks to get a respectable obp.

[Ennder]

RR cannot micro control Gomez the way you guys seem to think he can. RR can yell at him until he is blue in the face but the reality is he can either green light him or hold him back by shutting off his aggression completely. We don't know what discussions go on off the field, I'm sure RR talks to him about it all the time. Gomez the player has been like this his entire career, he has 20 years or so of experience and this is just built in at this point. If you think the boneheaded play is somehow RR's fault I think you are just fooling yourself.

 

Your one really good shot at teaching this stuff is when you have the player in the minors and they aren't established yet. Once they get a full season or two into them at the pros it is really hard to change what you see. It has to come from the player. If Carlos Gomez was traded to the Cardinals tomorrow I highly doubt any of this would change. Where the Cardinals excel is at player development before they hit the majors, it doesn't happen at the majors.

[tmwiese55]

So Ennder, you just accept that he can't improve? There's no reason a player can't get smarter with age, it happens in all sports very often. Examples, in baseball an older player learning to hit opposite field as he ages or a pitcher learning placement as his velocity goes down. In basketball, learning to take better shots and reducing turnovers usually comes with the maturation procession. There's no reason he and everyone else shouldn't be pushed to improve and yes it is the manager and his staff's responsibility to try.

[Thurston Fluff]

FORGETTING how many outs there are in an inning (Reynolds),

 

Yet the Cardinals, a team that allegedly is better than us because they don't tolerate such things just signed him.

Many teams are less "tolerant"of mental mistakes than the Brewers, and yes it makes a difference in clubhouse moral, team chemistry, respect of the manager, and in the standings.

 

See above.

 

For those making the argument that RR freeing him and his aggressiveness is what has made him good, I think you're missing two key points you're acting like these things are mutually exclusive. He can be aggressive and swing hard without making just asinine decisions that lead to him getting thrown out by 30 ft and/or attempting a pointless steal of 3B with 2 outs when Braun is at the plate. You're already one of the fast players in the league, you don't need to be at 3B to score on a hit. Try to steal third all day with 1 out though, that is smart aggressiveness.

 

No we are saying you work on that without humiliating, sitting or showing up the guy in public. I think you are also assuming that RRR just told Gomez to stop making boneheaded plays Gomez would all of a sudden get it and make better decisions. Every time Gomez took off for third he believed he was going to get there. I seriously doubt he ever thought "I have a poor jump and there is little chance of me stealing third but what the hell I'll try anyway."

Second, you're kind of insinuating that he's good already and therefore shouldn't be asked to improve. That is just illogical. It would be like saying well player X is hits 300 with a 333 obp, wouldn't we all be still wishing he took more walks and got the obp over 350. Or Khris Davis is a good example, he's been pretty good and has good power, but are we are still saying it would be great to move the average up a few points and start taking more walks to get a respectable obp.

 

I think you are insinuation RRR doesn't try to get him to improve. I think that is not true. As I mentioned above he could go the Macha route and just put the stop sign on. But please explain to me how that is going to make Gomez a better decision maker on the basepaths better than letting him learn from his mistakes.

So Ennder, you just accept that he can't improve? There's no reason a player can't get smarter with age, it happens in all sports very often. Examples, in baseball an older player learning to hit opposite field as he ages or a pitcher learning placement as his velocity goes down.

 

Once again this seems like a false assumption that he isn't trying to get him to learn. I think it boils down to how do we get the most out of him now while trying to get more out of him tomorrow. You can't just do things that might improve his future production at the expense of today. Especially when he might not be here for that future performance to help us. Nor should you assume letting the player play isn't a way to get him to improve. How do you learn when to steal a base if you are told never to steal a base? Conversely if you let him steal a base how do you make sure he only steals them at the right time? That getting better with age thing you speak of usually comes due to experience.

[Ennder]

So Ennder, you just accept that he can't improve? There's no reason a player can't get smarter with age, it happens in all sports very often. Examples, in baseball an older player learning to hit opposite field as he ages or a pitcher learning placement as his velocity goes down. In basketball, learning to take better shots and reducing turnovers usually comes with the maturation procession. There's no reason he and everyone else shouldn't be pushed to improve and yes it is the manager and his staff's responsibility to try.

 

Of course players learn over time but that comes from so many other sources than just the manager. Gomez has gotten better over time in almost every department. I don't really credit Roenicke for that and I'm certainly not going to blame him when Gomez isn't perfect either. From 2011-2014 Gomez is the 20th highest rated BsR in MLB so it isn't like his baserunning is a negative. I just think you are looking for someone to blame when there isn't one thing to point at. Gomez is not a smart baseball player and probably never will be. The Brewers organization really has nothing to do with it. He has improved since he got here and we had nothing to do with his minor league development.

 

If you look at most players weaknesses when they first came up,they don't usually lose that as a weakness. Weeks improved defensively but it was never a strength, Gomez has a low baseball IQ and probably always will, Segura will probably always swing at too many pitches, Scooter is probably never going to be a good hitter against lefties. You can work on hiding them and make them less of a weakness but in the big picture they usually stay a weakness.

[tmwiese55]

Thurston, it doesn't seem you would fall into what I was getting at. I by no means want him benched or traded. It does remind me of an incident with Andruw Jones, after hot dogging a ball in CF in his early career I believe he was pulled mid inning on defense, again, I'm not advocating that, this just reminded me of it.

 

I was more getting at the point of view, of the good outweighs the bad, accept it. or what more do can we ask from the guy, he's improved so much. Also, when stealing 3rd as your example, it's pretty much too late at that point. once you go you go, if you try to go back to 2b you'll end up in a rundown. This is a pure decision making thing, simply don't steal 3rd with 2 outs, done. That's the simplest thing when looking at SBs, for a guy like him almost any other attempt is acceptable. The real bonehead things for Gomez come after hits when he just keeps running until he gets thrown out at 3rd or home. Any time it's a close play I can accept as being aggressive, it happens. When you're often thrown out by 1/3 of the baseline or more you need to check yourself a bit.

 

I never said RR isn't trying, I was referring to other comments on here suggesting that and/or that he is encouraging/endorsing this aggressiveness and accepting the dumb things that happen. I'm sure he's doing his best. But it is his job as the leader to get his team to listen to him, if they won't listen yes the players are at fault but so is he if the players don't respect him. I think others on here argued about RR encouraging the aggressiveness and stupidity, no way I believe he's dumb enough not try clean this up this year. Or they were suggesting that he should just accept this rather than try to coach him, no way, he should be trying to improve him and I'm sure he's trying.

 

On a side note with baserunning. Anyone else notice how often we run into outs just after a runner scores. Almost as if the guy still on the bases voluntary puts himself in harms way in order to make sure they don't throw the ball home creating a close play at the plate. Kind of like, here's a free out if you let that run score. I watch a decent amount of bball outside of us and this is way more common for us. Anyone else know the type of plays I'm talking about? It's tough to get big innings going when you give up free outs like this.

[Bombers]

Well said Thurston. To me Gomez should be stealing bases, turning singles into doubles all day every day. Yes, he will get caught steeling / thrown out but his aggressiveness on the bases increases his value 10 fold. Him wreaking havoc causes distress to the other team. Forces their pitcher into uncomfortable spots. It's a good thing. In 09 - 11 Gomez stole 14/18/16 bases. That is silly. He should be able to do that by the all star break. (and then some) ... Here is a good comparison to someone GoGo reminds me of, Rickey Henderson. (From a speed/power standpoint)

[pre]Gomez Henderson

Age SB CS % SB CS %

25 16 2 88.9% 66 18 78.6%

26 37 6 86.0% 80 10 88.9%

27 40 7 85.1% 87 18 82.9%

28 34 12 73.9% 41 8 83.7%

29 93 13 87.7%[/pre]

 

Would you tell Henderson to slow it down? Don't wreck havoc? The %'s are near the same. To me, I love having someone like Gomez. Someone who is all out all the time. He doesn't trot to first on a GB. He blazes there and you better not have a hiccup. Single to LF, you better not bobble it. Forcing someone to be on their toes at all times is a good thing. And pushing the envelope to create a spark is another good thing. To me the positives out weigh the negative lapses. So keep doing what you do GoGo.

[3and2Fastball]

This thread is really bizarre to me, honestly.

 

Gomez was 10th in WAR in the entire MLB last year. Nit-picking the faults of one the greatest Baseball players on Earth today, when there are literally a thousand bigger problems with the Brewers franchise, is really something else.

[Bombers]

This thread is really bizarre to me, honestly.

 

Gomez was 10th in WAR in the entire MLB last year. Nit-picking the faults of one the greatest Baseball players on Earth today, when there are literally a thousand bigger problems with the Brewers franchise, is really something else.

No kidding

[Thurston Fluff]

Thurston, it doesn't seem you would fall into what I was getting at. I by no means want him benched or traded. It does remind me of an incident with Andruw Jones, after hot dogging a ball in CF in his early career I believe he was pulled mid inning on defense, again, I'm not advocating that, this just reminded me of it.

 

IIRC Jones problem was he didn't try very hard. He would sometimes miss a play he could have made because he was relying on natural talent to be good instead of trying to make the most of it. I can understand how that sort of thing could be addressed by pulling him from a game or sitting him the next game. Gomez's issues is more of the overly aggressive to the point of stupid kind. I don't see how negative reinforcement is going to make him do it less without curbing his aggressiveness in a negative way too. I have no doubt every time he makes a stupid mistake he is being reminded of it and why it was stupid in that situation. What we hope is that he learns from it someday. I don't know how much more a manager can do without taking the choice away from him like Macha did with players or to sit/pull him when ha makes the boneheaded mistake. Both of those options have a downside to them as well. One never allows the player to learn on his own while the other would take away the natural tendency that is a major part of his game.

The thing that I doubt is an option is that any manager can do something to make a player's weakness disappear in a year or two. Which seems to be the complaint as far as I can tell. That in no way should imply people stop trying to get him to make better decisions. Just that we have to accept it is who he is now and that is actually pretty darn good. Given there is a reasonable explanation to go the route RRR did with him and other ways of approaching it haven't produced anything close to his production this approach did, why complain about doing it this way?

[tmwiese55]

"Gomez was 10th in WAR in the entire MLB last year. Nit-picking the faults of one the greatest Baseball players on Earth today, when there are literally a thousand bigger problems with the Brewers franchise, is really something else."

 

This is pretty much the point I have issue with and what I think is bizarre, what player do you tell that he's good enough and doesn't need to improve? Especially when these are so easily correctable mental mistakes. It's not fixing a hole in a swing or increasing speed, it's purely mental. If the relay guy has the ball just outside the infield, listen to the 3B coach and don't try to score. If there's two outs and you're on second, don't steal third, you can already score from 2nd barring a miracle throw. You don't think Mike Trout has tried to improve every year?

 

Also, in those SB stats listed, you don't see the 12% dropoff last year? Isn't the common threshold that you should be above 80%? He wasn't even close. And again, I'm fine with him stealing at pretty much any time other than 3rd with two outs, especially since he hits leadoff so often so you have your best hitters at the plate when he's on second. The really bonehead things come on batted balls when he gets thrown out by 30 ft, this should just not happen. Getting thrown out is fine, he's amazingly fast and should push the envelope but if you decide to go and get thrown out from that far you've made a huge mistake.

 

I love Gomez, I'm shocked how often people on here talk about trading him and selling high with him (and Lucroy too). I would pick him as my favorite player and I don't think it's really close. I just don't accept the argument that he can't improve himself or his decision making. Improving this should not make his other skills go away as people seem to be implying.