So is it now official that Kansas City won the Greinke trade? Also rethinking Ned Yost

[Thurston Fluff]

You just said it doesn't hurt. You never mentioned it can hurt. I gave you a scenario where it does hurt. Overall I think pursuing something based on a false belief tends to hurt. If not directly then by misplaced time and resources on things that don't really matter.

[danzig6767]

On the flip side, teams like LA and Detroit with multiple aces which supposedly are required to advance in the playoffs get bounced early.

 

The idea that you have to have a legitimate, top of the rotation ace, to win in the playoffs is one of the most over hyped, over stated, obviously false, beliefs in all of sports.

Boston did have Lester last year pitching great in the playoffs, but i'd argue that their bullpen and offense were the biggest keys to winning their title, same for the Cardinals the previous year. That St. Louis rotation was far from stellar in those 2012 playoffs, but their pen was great and their offense scored a lot of runs. If KC were to win it this year, it's going to mainly be their bullpen, defense, speed, and unexpected home runs that will be the main reasons why.

[3and2Fastball]

2 games from a World Championship now, and every move Yost made tonight worked out great, from having Cain in RF to Gordon batting 2nd to the way the relief pitching was used.

 

In my wildest dreams I wish Roenicke managed like Yost did tonight

[Menotti80]

To me the manager's job needs to be no more than a guy who is a great fit for the team he manages and also to not put players in positions to get hurt or lose confidence.

 

 

Beyond that, its all on the players, their ability and what's between their ears.

 

 

Yost is no "better" now than he was in '08. He has better pitchers and guys that aren't slumping when it matters most.

 

 

The reason the Brewers haven't been closer to a WS the past 6 years is because of the players lack of talent and/or lack of clutch big-game performances. Not because a pitcher was pulled too early or too late or because player x was or wasn't pinch-hit for.

[Brewer Fever]

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on in here. I'll just leave it at that.

[HiAndTight]

On the flip side, teams like LA and Detroit with multiple aces which supposedly are required to advance in the playoffs get bounced early.

 

The idea that you have to have a legitimate, top of the rotation ace, to win in the playoffs is one of the most over hyped, over stated, obviously false, beliefs in all of sports.

 

 

Just because this year that wasn't the case(although a certain Giants lefty might disagree) hardly means that it's a ridiculous notion.

 

It's far more often the case that you're going to win in the post-season with dominant starting pitching than ANYTHING else.

[HiAndTight]

On the flip side, teams like LA and Detroit with multiple aces which supposedly are required to advance in the playoffs get bounced early.

 

The idea that you have to have a legitimate, top of the rotation ace, to win in the playoffs is one of the most over hyped, over stated, obviously false, beliefs in all of sports.

Boston did have Lester last year pitching great in the playoffs, but i'd argue that their bullpen and offense were the biggest keys to winning their title, same for the Cardinals the previous year. That St. Louis rotation was far from stellar in those 2012 playoffs, but their pen was great and their offense scored a lot of runs. If KC were to win it this year, it's going to mainly be their bullpen, defense, speed, and unexpected home runs that will be the main reasons why.

 

 

And the Cardinals rode dominant performances by Wacha and Wainwright to the World Series while, as you say, the Red Sox had Lester, a dominant reliever, and of course one of the greatest performances by a player in the history of baseball. Ortiz was just absurdly good in last years playoffs. If not for his performance, we're talking about how great the Cardinals young pitchers were.

 

 

You can obviously beat aces in the playoffs. Inferior pitching can win, but just because it CAN happen hardly means that having elite starting pitching is overrated in regards to winning a world series. It is the most important aspect of a winning playoff team IMO.

[StearnsFTW]

Yost was, is and will likely always be an idiot.

 

Having said that, I don't think managers matter much.

[jerichoholicninja]

Now that KC didn't win the World Series we can say it was a push, right?

[adamb100]

Making the world series > Not making the world series. Don't think it's a push still.

[TURBO]

Yost was, is and will likely always be an idiot.

 

Having said that, I don't think managers matter much.

 

I completely disagree. The manager is involved with every decision made during game time. Some managers are better game managers than others. I will never understand how someone can say that managers don't matter when we had one start Mark freaking Kotsay in the NLCS in CF, which cost us the game, and possibly the trip to the World Series.

 

Managers matter a lot in my opinion. It seems easy to dismiss their importance, but in reality, every decision they make effects the outcome of a game.

[pacopete4]

Plus the fact that they still have those players going forward while Greinke keeps pushing the Dodgers into the playoffs. I guess we can see if Segura and those other clowns pan out but for now, the Royals have won this trade.

[CheezWizHed]

I skipped several pages of commentary here... but:

- If the Brewers hadn't made that trade and kept Cain/Escobar/Ordorizzi/Jeffress, would we have made the WS this year?

- Was that trade the ONLY thing that pushed KC to the WS?

 

I think no on both fronts.

 

The Brewers maximized the future benefit of the younger players in 2011 with Grienke when they had the best chance at the WS. KC maximized the present (as of 2011) benefit of Grienke by gaining talent for 2014.

 

That is how small market teams have to operate to get into the playoffs. Neither team has the resources to be perennial WS contenders.

 

I'm happy for both the Brewers and KC on this trade.

[HiAndTight]

On the flip side, teams like LA and Detroit with multiple aces which supposedly are required to advance in the playoffs get bounced early.

 

The idea that you have to have a legitimate, top of the rotation ace, to win in the playoffs is one of the most over hyped, over stated, obviously false, beliefs in all of sports.

 

 

 

 

Madison Bumgarner says hello....

 

Without Bumgarner, the Royals are likely putting the 2014 World Series trophy next to the 1985 Trophy(when they had their Cy Young pitcher throw two complete games and get two wins in the World Series).

 

With Bumgarner, the Giants have won their 3rd WS in 5 years.

[dlk9s]

\\

The Brewers maximized the future benefit of the younger players in 2011 with Grienke when they had the best chance at the WS. KC maximized the present (as of 2011) benefit of Grienke by gaining talent for 2014.

Exactly this. People are so obsessed with determining who "won" a trade. Both teams did just fine for themselves. So we came two games short of the WS in the variance-fest that is the MLB playoffs. So what?

 

Cain and Escobar weren't the reason KC made the playoffs. The bullpen was. Cain certainly played a sizable role IN the playoffs, but it was still the bullpen that took them to the brink.

 

KC is just as flawed as any other team. They rely on their bullpen to win games for them. They are virtually all pitch, no hit and hope they can stay on the positive side of variance by winning close, low scoring games. I mean, think of how close they came to NOT making the playoffs. If it wasn't for an incredibly dominant pen, they wouldn't have come close.

[StearnsFTW]

Yost was, is and will likely always be an idiot.

 

Having said that, I don't think managers matter much.

 

I completely disagree. The manager is involved with every decision made during game time. Some managers are better game managers than others. I will never understand how someone can say that managers don't matter when we had one start Mark freaking Kotsay in the NLCS in CF, which cost us the game, and possibly the trip to the World Series.

 

Managers matter a lot in my opinion. It seems easy to dismiss their importance, but in reality, every decision they make effects the outcome of a game.

 

Yeah and none of them get them all right. It's a 1 or 2 game difference I very the course of the season imo. It matters. Just not much.