So is it now official that Kansas City won the Greinke trade? Also rethinking Ned Yost

[JohnBriggs12]

I am actually far more inclined to second guess the Aoki/Smith deal than the Greinke trade. Even as a fourth outfielder, Aoki would have been very valuable... the difference between 200 at bats of Aoki vs. 200 at bats of Schafer/Herrera is huge. This is not even mentioning the fact that he was really the only semblance of a true leadoff hitter the Brewers had on their roster at the time of the deal.

One more season of 200-300 PAs isn't close to having Smith for 6 seasons. Even if Aoki had posted a better OPS than his .710, this was a smart trade.

 

Smith was a big reason the Brewers got off to their hot start. For 6 weeks he gave them the kind of relief that's catapulted KC to where they are. Unfortunately he couldn't sustain that but very few guys could. That trade opened a spot for Davis who was for the most part a productive bat in the 6th spot in the lineup. Aoki's a handy guy but not sure he'd have had much impact.

 

As long as we're second guessing how about just dumping Ishikawa after he put up .257/.329/.428 for the Brewers in 2012? Those aren't great numbers but in hindsight were much better than they got at 1B the last 2 seasons.

[TURBO]

The Brewers should follow the KC model and stink for 28 years and then they will no doubt make the WS in the 29th year.

 

Still better than where we are now... (WS appearance 32 years ago, with no relief in sight...)

[BrewBalls]

I am actually far more inclined to second guess the Aoki/Smith deal than the Greinke trade. Even as a fourth outfielder, Aoki would have been very valuable... the difference between 200 at bats of Aoki vs. 200 at bats of Schafer/Herrera is huge. This is not even mentioning the fact that he was really the only semblance of a true leadoff hitter the Brewers had on their roster at the time of the deal.

One more season of 200-300 PAs isn't close to having Smith for 6 seasons. Even if Aoki had posted a better OPS than his .710, this was a smart trade.

 

Smith was a big reason the Brewers got off to their hot start. For 6 weeks he gave them the kind of relief that's catapulted KC to where they are. Unfortunately he couldn't sustain that but very few guys could. That trade opened a spot for Davis who was for the most part a productive bat in the 6th spot in the lineup. Aoki's a handy guy but not sure he'd have had much impact.

 

As long as we're second guessing how about just dumping Ishikawa after he put up .257/.329/.428 for the Brewers in 2012? Those aren't great numbers but in hindsight were much better than they got at 1B the last 2 seasons.

Travis only played 7 games in 2013. Not sure if he was injured. Although his numbers with the Pirates this season still looked dismal before rejoining the Giants, batting a mere .206/.263/.382. Based on what Loney signed for with the Rays, I wish DM would have made a stronger push to sign him. He is a left handed bat with good gap power, has a decent OBP (career .340) who provides solid defense. All things the Brewers lacked last season and his $7M AAV doesn't break the bank.

[monty57]

Smith was a big reason the Brewers got off to their hot start. For 6 weeks he gave them the kind of relief that's catapulted KC to where they are. Unfortunately he couldn't sustain that but very few guys could.

 

Roenicke's bullpen strategy is something along the lines of:

 

Step 1: Trust 1-2 guys that aren't labeled "closer." Pitch those 1-2 guys every day until either their arm breaks (Thornburg) or they are no longer effective due to either fatigue or the opponents figuring them out (Smith).

 

Step 2: Repeat this process until there are no longer any bullpen arms worth a darn.

 

Step 3: See how many games are lost in late innings when you have worn out your bullpen.

[JohnBriggs12]

Ishikawa's picture is next to "replacement level player" in the dictionary, more so because his ceiling isn't far from his floor. But he's not afraid of the big stage and he's already got one ring and is close to getting another. He's not a bad bench piece to have around, especially if the Brewers were to decide to go with Rogers at 1B.

[3and2Fastball]

I am actually far more inclined to second guess the Aoki/Smith deal than the Greinke trade. Even as a fourth outfielder, Aoki would have been very valuable... the difference between 200 at bats of Aoki vs. 200 at bats of Schafer/Herrera is huge. This is not even mentioning the fact that he was really the only semblance of a true leadoff hitter the Brewers had on their roster at the time of the deal.

 

Smith was/is incredibly valuable, it is just that Roenicke completely abused & overused him. I suppose if one was to factor in the likelihood that Roenicke would overuse Smith, then yes the trade was foolish. Hopefully Smith will still have plenty left in the tank once Roenicke is gone and a smarter manager brought in

[Thurston Fluff]

Smith was/is incredibly valuable, it is just that Roenicke completely abused & overused him. I suppose if one was to factor in the likelihood that Roenicke would overuse Smith, then yes the trade was foolish. Hopefully Smith will still have plenty left in the tank once Roenicke is gone and a smarter manager brought in

 

I agree the Brewers need to hire someone like Yost. Then all our problems will be solved. Too bad Melvin isn't smart enough to hire someone like that.

[thebruce44]

Then again I was never a person who felt in game management amounted to a hill of beans when judging a manager's worth.

 

http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/baseball/mlb/img15727266.jpg

 

http://media.jrn.com/images/mark101211d.jpg

[monty57]

Not that Kotsay was anything close to a center fielder, but I was at the previous game, and Morgan looked horrible in center, misplaying several balls in what turned into a blowout. I would guess that's what prompted the much maligned decision to put Kotsay out there.

[RWeeksFan23]

Smith was a big reason the Brewers got off to their hot start. For 6 weeks he gave them the kind of relief that's catapulted KC to where they are. Unfortunately he couldn't sustain that but very few guys could.

 

Roenicke's bullpen strategy is something along the lines of:

 

Step 1: Trust 1-2 guys that aren't labeled "closer." Pitch those 1-2 guys every day until either their arm breaks (Thornburg) or they are no longer effective due to either fatigue or the opponents figuring them out (Smith).

 

Step 2: Repeat this process until there are no longer any bullpen arms worth a darn.

 

Step 3: See how many games are lost in late innings when you have worn out your bullpen.

This.

 

Roenicke abused the hell out of Thornburg and Smith, and it ended up being a huge reason we missed out on the playoffs.

[Thurston Fluff]

I didn't realize judging a manager's worth comes down to one decision he made three years ago. However at this point I think some people tend to view that as the reason we lost that series. It was not. The fact that nobody who played center seemed to be able to hit their way out of a paper bag was more to blame than who he tried there to get some offense. In that series Gomez had an OPS of .473 and Morgan .536. Kotsay was .717. I can pretty much guarantee you if either of the other two came close to that they would have been playing center that day.

Since the real reason we lost that series was due way more to a lack of production from players please explain to me why that is so important to judging the manager's overall performance. As a matter of fact if you consider it is the worst decision ever, and didn't cost us the series, I would say it proves my point about how unimportant it is.

[SRB]

I find the revisionist history that Yost is/was a great manager pretty amusing, to be honest. Would be interesting to roll back the tapes of what people were saying at the time.

[3and2Fastball]

I find the revisionist history that Yost is/was a great manager pretty amusing, to be honest.

 

Being considered a better manager than Ron Roenicke or Ken Macha hardly makes one "great"

 

I think the way Mark A handled the Yost situation, firing him like he did with just a week or two left in the season, was very bush league and cheap. That the Brewers seem to be bungling their manager position ever since hardly seems like a surprise

[Invader3K]

I find the revisionist history that Yost is/was a great manager pretty amusing, to be honest.

 

Being considered a better manager than Ron Roenicke or Ken Macha hardly makes one "great"

 

I think the way Mark A handled the Yost situation, firing him like he did with just a week or two left in the season, was very bush league and cheap. That the Brewers seem to be bungling their manager position ever since hardly seems like a surprise

There's no doubt in my mind that if Yost hadn't been fired, we would have not made the playoffs in 2008.

[Thurston Fluff]

I find the revisionist history that Yost is/was a great manager pretty amusing, to be honest. Would be interesting to roll back the tapes of what people were saying at the time.

 

I was a solid supporter of him from the beginning. But I also am a person who feels managers don't really have much of an effect on team performance. To be perfectly honest I think a chimp could do most of their job. As long as they don't kill a pitcher's arm or incite riots in the clubhouse I am ok with them. I am more against the whole notion of blaming/crediting the manager for team performance than I am for or against any particular one. I wouldn't even have a huge problem with the continual manager hate if it didn't obfuscate the real problems.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Ned Yost earned and deserved his firing after the Shouse/Howard/Burrell debacle.

[rickh150]

Give Yost credit. He set that bullpen up and switched lineup in Sept. to get them in the playoffs and advance.

 

Still, as of now, we didn't lose the trade. Knowing what we know now about Cain and Escobar, I think we still would have made the trade to try and win it all with Greinke in 2011 and 2012. If KC wins the World Series, and Escobar or Cain (or Shields ala Odorizzi trade) play very well, then KC wins the trade.

 

Cain and Escobar are hot now, playing well. I just see them as slightly above average players though, not stars. That pitching, particularly the relievers, are the stars of that team and got them to the World Series.

[TURBO]

KC wins the trade hands down. They made the World Series, we did not... There are 2 starters on a World Series team that were part of the trade, plus were able to acquire Shields (Odorizzi being a key part to that trade).

 

We got one playoff series win with Greinke on our team, and then he was gone. *poof*

 

KC wins that trade.

[DHonks]

SRB, you can check out every post I made. I was always a Yost supporter. I loved his fire. People soured on him because of his awkward post-game press conferences. He is a great manager for a young team. I'll bet given what Mark knows know, he wouldn't fire Ned.

 

Macha's teams were awful. It was the least exciting seasons I've seen, despite solid talent. I had fun watching crappy teams in the 90s, but couldn't bear to watch his squads.

[adambr2]

SRB, you can check out every post I made. I was always a Yost supporter. I loved his fire. People soured on him because of his awkward post-game press conferences. He is a great manager for a young team. I'll bet given what Mark knows know, he wouldn't fire Ned.

 

Macha's teams were awful. It was the least exciting seasons I've seen, despite solid talent. I had fun watching crappy teams in the 90s, but couldn't bear to watch his squads.

 

Solid talent? Macha's 2009 rotation featured Gallardo, Suppan, Dave Bush, Braden Looper, and Manny Parra. RR has been fortunate to receive some pretty solid pitching staffs. He'd never sniff 80 wins with that one.

 

They had Braun and Fielder, but overall the lineup was no more talented than what we have now.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

KC wins the trade hands down. They made the World Series, we did not... There are 2 starters on a World Series team that were part of the trade, plus were able to acquire Shields (Odorizzi being a key part to that trade).

 

We got one playoff series win with Greinke on our team, and then he was gone. *poof*

 

KC wins that trade.

 

 

People's memories fade after a few years. Odorizzi was not the the key part of that trade. Wil Myers was the coveted prospect of that trade, and it wouldn't have happened if he wasn't involved.

[TURBO]

Odorizzi was part of the trade, can we say if he was a "key" part, maybe not... You are nitpicking what I said, no big deal...

[DuWayne Steurer]

Yuni Betencourt was also part of that trade. At least the Royals were able to include Odorizzi as part of a trade later on. The only thing Betencourt provided was pain and mental suffering.

[logan82]

That 2009 Lineup was far better than what we have now. 2014 was better at catcher, RF, and CF but that's about it. The pitching was horrible though.

 

C Lucroy

1B Fielder

2B Lopez/Weeks

3B McGehee

SS Hardy edges out Segura

RF Braun edges out Hart

CF Gomez

LF Braun

[TooLiveBrew]

SRB, you can check out every post I made. I was always a Yost supporter. I loved his fire. People soured on him because of his awkward post-game press conferences. He is a great manager for a young team. I'll bet given what Mark knows know, he wouldn't fire Ned.

Moreso because of his consistently inept in-game strategy. That was what accounted for awkward postgame pressers -- Ned didn't take criticism well, & his often-bungled strategy invited it.

 

I agree that he's a good manager with young players, & I'm happy to see this successful postseason run.